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  #41  
Old 06-12-2006, 04:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Charlottesville
It is completely obvious that Abramov, Ryabov, and others wanted to put an end to the Western legends. I know it's ridiculous, but it's plainly obvious. I really don't have a problem with the Russian experts at all, but they refused to accept the opinion of western experts, and really thought a photo comparison of a few photos with a skull which was placed together was more accurate than the examination of bone structure.
Welcome to the world of science, where nothing is 100% certain. I must admit that I myself want to bang my head against a wall when, as a professional, I stumble upon several articles with contradicting results. It can be quite irritating... but it is a common occurrence.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Charlottesville
The photo comparison is not completely reliable when you consider this skull had nothing below the brow and had to be placed together. And even if not, it's still a controversial method.
But we disagree, and that is fine.
Where is Anastasia? To me, it is obvious.
Her ashes are scattered at Castle Seeon.
The photo comparison certainly isn't completely reliable, as well as any other scientific method. No one is 100% sure that it was Anastasia, and the experts shied away from dealing in un-scientific absolutes.

Well... our only disagreement is upon the name of the place where her ashes are scattered. :) To me, it is Sverdlovskaya Oblast.
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  #42  
Old 06-12-2006, 04:22 AM
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Where is Sverdlovskaya Oblast at? Is there a claimant there?

BTW.. What do you think of Anna Anderson and about those who identified her as being AN, her memories, the handwriting, etc. In my opinion there are too many coincidences between 'two' people to be just a coincidence. She knew things NO ONE on the outside could have possibly known.


I guess the reason I came off as I did was because of the way people on this forum talk as if it has been proven beyond all doubt Marie is missing. Here's one I found on the LR part 1 thread.

"As Anastasia's body was one of those found, and identified by DNA, the chances that Anna Anderson's DNA tests and those tests were wrong must not be very big.

I remember that King Olav of Norway commented on the case in a book he was interviewed for in 1977. (He was related to the Romanovs by way of Anastasia's grandmother, who was his great aunt, and thus was Anastasia's second cousin) He said that there were few people in the family who believed Anna Anderson's claims."

Is this person aware Anastasia and Marie would have the same mtDNA?

And is he aware the only Romanov to actually see Anna Anderson was Olga Alexandrovna? All the others simply persecuted her without seeing her, which makes me think they had something to hide.
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"My heart tells me it is she," -Olga Alexandrovna when meeting Anna Anderson who claimed to be her godchild Anastasia Nicholaevna, before she changed her mind, saying that she was a deluded imposter.
  #43  
Old 06-12-2006, 04:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Charlottesville
No, it was Abramov and his team who mistook the pelvis as that of Nicholas.
It is an explicable mistake that is quite common, though -- to misidentify the sex of a pelvis if arcus pubis's angleis unusual... or an arc damaged, which undoubtedly was the case, given the case history.
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  #44  
Old 06-12-2006, 04:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mapple
It is an explicable mistake that is quite common, though -- to misidentify the sex of a pelvis if arcus pubis's angleis unusual... or an arc damaged, which undoubtedly was the case, given the case history.
Well, I guess it's just that the American team realized it was female at first sight.

The more I read the Romanov thread 1 the more confused I get about some of these posts. It's almost as if people here WANT Marie to be missing, and ignore ALL other evidence. Is there something I'm missing?
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"My heart tells me it is she," -Olga Alexandrovna when meeting Anna Anderson who claimed to be her godchild Anastasia Nicholaevna, before she changed her mind, saying that she was a deluded imposter.
  #45  
Old 06-12-2006, 04:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Charlottesville
Where is Sverdlovskaya Oblast at? Is there a claimant there?
Erm... Americans have states, Britons have counties, Russians have oblasts. Yekaterinburg is its capital, Koptyaki is within its borders. As for the claimants -- they are everywhere... there was a couple of Alexeys IIRC.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Charlottesville
BTW.. What do you think of Anna Anderson and about those who identified her as being AN, her memories, the handwriting, etc. In my opinion there are too many coincidences between 'two' people to be just a coincidence. She knew things NO ONE on the outside could have possibly known.
Well, Anastasia was shot along with her family, if we are to believe numerous accounts of eyewitnesses and invesigators. The statements concerning the immolation of two of the Tsar's children and the existence of four very similar jaws have pretty much finalized it for me. Of course, miracles do happen... but this is too much.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Charlottesville
I guess the reason I came off as I did was because of the way people on this forum talk as if it has been proven beyond all doubt Marie is missing. Here's one I found on the LR part 1 thread...
I would like to reiterate it again: it is unwarranted not to have doubts. Erare humanum est! Also, it is unwarranted not to doubt that Anna Anderson was Grand Duchess Anastasia, if we are at it, because there is no scientific evidence that upholds her claim... none at all.

As for your correct statement that she knew things NO ONE on the outside could have possibly known -- it implies that someone among the insiders could have known. Possibly she was very well-trained by... my my, I have to stop as I am not into conspiracy theories! :)
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  #46  
Old 06-12-2006, 04:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Charlottesville
Well, I guess it's just that the American team realized it was female at first sight.

The more I read the Romanov thread 1 the more confused I get about some of these posts. It's almost as if people here WANT Marie to be missing, and ignore ALL other evidence. Is there something I'm missing?
Abramov made a mistake, and it doesn't matter because he was corrected.. BTW, where did you get the data that he was corrected by the Americans? Kurth states only that Maples identified the pelvis in question as male at first sight. And you can obviously identify any given exhumed pelvis as either male of female, it's no great breakthrough.
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  #47  
Old 06-12-2006, 04:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Charlottesville
...
The more I read the Romanov thread 1 the more confused I get about some of these posts. It's almost as if people here WANT Marie to be missing, and ignore ALL other evidence. Is there something I'm missing?
Anastasia-ites want their mystery. Maria-ites want their closure. No conspiracies here, I hope! :)
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  #48  
Old 06-12-2006, 11:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mapple
Erm... Americans have states, Britons have counties, Russians have oblasts. Yekaterinburg is its capital, Koptyaki is within its borders. As for the claimants -- they are everywhere... there was a couple of Alexeys IIRC.


Well, Anastasia was shot along with her family, if we are to believe numerous accounts of eyewitnesses and invesigators. The statements concerning the immolation of two of the Tsar's children and the existence of four very similar jaws have pretty much finalized it for me. Of course, miracles do happen... but this is too much.



I would like to reiterate it again: it is unwarranted not to have doubts. Erare humanum est! Also, it is unwarranted not to doubt that Anna Anderson was Grand Duchess Anastasia, if we are at it, because there is no scientific evidence that upholds her claim... none at all.

As for your correct statement that she knew things NO ONE on the outside could have possibly known -- it implies that someone among the insiders could have known. Possibly she was very well-trained by... my my, I have to stop as I am not into conspiracy theories! :)
That's cool. I've never heard of the oblast thing.
Anyways, what is it that makes you trust the Russian scientists so much more than the Americans?

And remember, there are also witnesses who say they saw Anastasia in Perm, and all had the same story. So witnesses and executioners can't all be right.

No scientific evidence? What about the handwriting of Anna Anderson which had ALL the concordant signs of Grand Duchess Anastasia?
And the ears, which were identical in 17 anatomical points. 12 is considered proof of identity in German courts.
These tests when performed today still give the same result.
I don't see why Lili Dehn, Tatiana Botkin, Shura and others would want to support a fraud.
And how did she know so many intimate details of IP life? She knew of one event where only Alexandra, Lili Dehn, Anna Vyrobouva, and Anastasia Nicholaevna were present!

The only person who COULD have told her this was Lili Dehn, which is implausible.

I just don't see how Anna Anderson could not have been Anastasia, but I'll admit the DNA leaves a little circle of doubt for me, but the chain of custody really makes me reguard it as inconclusive.
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"My heart tells me it is she," -Olga Alexandrovna when meeting Anna Anderson who claimed to be her godchild Anastasia Nicholaevna, before she changed her mind, saying that she was a deluded imposter.
  #49  
Old 06-12-2006, 11:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mapple
Anastasia-ites want their mystery. Maria-ites want their closure. No conspiracies here, I hope! :)
I guess, but it seems that one should examine evidence and be open to possibilities instead of wanting a mystery. I feel that the Romanovs are shrouded in conspiracy.
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"My heart tells me it is she," -Olga Alexandrovna when meeting Anna Anderson who claimed to be her godchild Anastasia Nicholaevna, before she changed her mind, saying that she was a deluded imposter.
  #50  
Old 06-12-2006, 01:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Charlottesville
That's cool. I've never heard of the oblast thing.
You're welcome... actually, we also have krays, republics, autonomous districts and even one autonomous oblast.:)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Charlottesville
Anyways, what is it that makes you trust the Russian scientists so much more than the Americans?
Prof Plaksin was one of my lecturers me at university. :)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Charlottesville
And remember, there are also witnesses who say they saw Anastasia in Perm, and all had the same story. So witnesses and executioners can't all be right.
As well as there were witnesses who saw Nicholas II, Alexey, etc, etc... There is a saying in Russian, 'To lie like an eyewitness', and it is grounded in reality.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Charlottesville
No scientific evidence? What about the handwriting of Anna Anderson which had ALL the concordant signs of Grand Duchess Anastasia?
And the ears, which were identical in 17 anatomical points. 12 is considered proof of identity in German courts.
These tests when performed today still give the same result.
I have my doubts concerning this, but then again, I am not in possession of relevant knowledge to give an expert judgment myself.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Charlottesville
I don't see why Lili Dehn, Tatiana Botkin, Shura and others would want to support a fraud.
And how did she know so many intimate details of IP life? She knew of one event where only Alexandra, Lili Dehn, Anna Vyrobouva, and Anastasia Nicholaevna were present!

The only person who COULD have told her this was Lili Dehn, which is implausible.
The people want to believe, and they want miracles to happen... need I say more?
And why, for example, Dehn telling someone who then told to AA is so implausible?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Charlottesville
I just don't see how Anna Anderson could not have been Anastasia, but I'll admit the DNA leaves a little circle of doubt for me, but the chain of custody really makes me reguard it as inconclusive.
She couldn't have been Anastasia very easily. I would like to remind you about the existence of four lower jaws belonging to four young girls of high standing who happened to be relatives relatives, which were found in the vicinity of Sverdlovsk.
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  #51  
Old 06-12-2006, 01:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Charlottesville
I guess, but it seems that one should examine evidence and be open to possibilities instead of wanting a mystery. I feel that the Romanovs are shrouded in conspiracy.
Cui bono? Who on Earth needs this conpiracy, and for what nefarious purposes?
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  #52  
Old 06-12-2006, 10:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mapple
She couldn't have been Anastasia very easily. I would like to remind you about the existence of four lower jaws belonging to four young girls of high standing who happened to be relatives relatives, which were found in the vicinity of Sverdlovsk.
I disagree, but that's okay. Lili Dehn herself not only said only those four knew about the incident, but she recognized Anna Anderson and Anastasia physically and intuitively. Anna Anderson recieved recognition by those who were closest to the 'real' Anastasia, and knew things that weren't very well-known. They were secret. It's my opinion that all the evidence is in Anna Anderson's favor. I just don't think her claim should be dismissed on the basis of a dispute between skeletal remains and a DNA test in which the chain of custody is unacceptable.

The case of the Romanovs is complicated because they are so many 'witnesses' who say different things, so in the end we don't know what to believe.
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"My heart tells me it is she," -Olga Alexandrovna when meeting Anna Anderson who claimed to be her godchild Anastasia Nicholaevna, before she changed her mind, saying that she was a deluded imposter.
  #53  
Old 06-12-2006, 10:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mapple
Cui bono? Who on Earth needs this conpiracy, and for what nefarious purposes?
I don't know, but each side says something different, so it seems that one side has to be lieing.


I believe Anastasia Nicholaevna survived the execution and became Anna Anderson, but I have no problem changing my belief if I see hard evidence to contradict it, which I don't. I'm just glad we can have our opinions here without being ridiculed. I respect your opinion very much, even if it differs from my own.
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"My heart tells me it is she," -Olga Alexandrovna when meeting Anna Anderson who claimed to be her godchild Anastasia Nicholaevna, before she changed her mind, saying that she was a deluded imposter.
  #54  
Old 06-13-2006, 12:10 AM
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Fascinating conversations about the theories of Anastasia and Anna Anderson. Thanks for making me think and presenting some relevant points about the whole Romanov debate.
Linda 85
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  #55  
Old 06-13-2006, 01:53 AM
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I love the subject. It's interesting because none of us will ever know 100% what the truth is.

I think it would have been best that Anastasia (or Marie) and Alexei died that night with the rest of their family. No one should have to live with that sort of trauma. But then there's the part of me that has studied the life of Anna Anderson, and it so hard to think she was lieing. The sadness and loneliness she felt would be exactly what I picture a real survivor to have felt. This isn't the trauma of someone who had merely dropped a hand grenade in a factory as history's verdict would like us to believe.
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"My heart tells me it is she," -Olga Alexandrovna when meeting Anna Anderson who claimed to be her godchild Anastasia Nicholaevna, before she changed her mind, saying that she was a deluded imposter.
  #56  
Old 06-13-2006, 12:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Charlottesville
I don't know, but each side says something different, so it seems that one side has to be lieing.


I believe Anastasia Nicholaevna survived the execution and became Anna Anderson, but I have no problem changing my belief if I see hard evidence to contradict it, which I don't. I'm just glad we can have our opinions here without being ridiculed. I respect your opinion very much, even if it differs from my own.
Believe me, so do I! :) I just cannot imagine the nature of conspiracy that supposedly has linked together the Soviet secret services, several the European royal houses and even an American hospital for the past 80+ years. There is no compelling reason for its existence, no matter how we slice it.

My opinion is that everyone is entitled to doubts -- it is an important part of what makes us human. But everyone, when in doubt, ought to remember that he or she possesses the most potent weapon known to the humankind -- Occam's razor, that is. :)
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  #57  
Old 06-14-2006, 09:45 PM
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Well, it dosen't necessarily have to be all those people together at all. I mean, you've got remember the American hospital TWICE denied having any remains from Anna Anderson. And then suddenly, it appears. How do we know for a fact it was REALLY from her after it had twice been denied?
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  #58  
Old 06-16-2006, 02:17 AM
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Unfortunately it have to be all those people... and even some more.
Mistakes happen, especially in hospitals. I know that...
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  #59  
Old 06-18-2006, 09:53 PM
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Why would it have to be all those people? Russia wouldn't have to be involved in replacing the tissue at all.
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  #60  
Old 06-20-2006, 04:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Charlottesville
Why would it have to be all those people? Russia wouldn't have to be involved in replacing the tissue at all.
So the conspiracy has to be so multifaceted that its different partners act on their own accord, simultaneously managing to keep everything secret for 80+ years?
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