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  #381  
Old 06-20-2008, 11:55 AM
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Originally Posted by OlgaNikolaievna View Post
There are people including the poster here Chat Noir who say that there is no proof that the intestines came from Anderson. If they were not hers whose were they and how did they come to be switched? I add to this the people saying that there is a coverup for political reasons and it's not hard to see that people believe that the intestines were not Anderson's and switched for some special purpose to fool people into believing Anderson was not Anastasia. This is the impression I get from the posts of those who question the identity. If this is not what they believe I would like to hear them say why they do not believe that the intestine sample was Anderson's and what their reasons are for believing this. Lexi I am not talking about you but others.
I think what Chat has questioned is the chain of custody. He would have to answer that for himself, though. The questions come because when the hospital was first asked for the samples, they said they didn't have them. Then later, they had them. That calls into question the chain of custody.
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  #382  
Old 06-20-2008, 11:55 AM
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Originally Posted by lexi4 View Post
From Alexandra's diary:
... "today I helped Tatiana with a German lesson."
From my previous post:
Quote:
German was studied only very little later on and it was according to those who knew them never used by the family.
No one is saying they never studied German at all only that it was studied very little much later and it was never used by the family. The languages used were Russian and English and the children were also capable in French but German was a language they knew very little so it's not likely it would become the language of choice for one of the children a year or two later and she would forget all the rest.
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  #383  
Old 06-20-2008, 11:57 AM
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Originally Posted by lexi4 View Post
I think what Chat has questioned is the chain of custody. He would have to answer that for himself, though. The questions come because when the hospital was first asked for the samples, they said they didn't have them. Then later, they had them. That calls into question the chain of custody.
Then this means he believes the intestines may not be Anderson's therefore he believes they belonged to somebody else which means they must have been exchanged. If he questions the chain of custody then he is questioning that the intestines tested were those of Anderson so this means he believes they are switched.
  #384  
Old 06-20-2008, 11:57 AM
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Exactly Olga. In a nutshell.
  #385  
Old 06-20-2008, 11:58 AM
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I remember reading that Alex didn't stop speaking German until after the outbreak of WWI. I believe it was after that, she stopped speaking it at all.
  #386  
Old 06-20-2008, 12:04 PM
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She had a very short time to stop doing something then poor woman.
  #387  
Old 06-20-2008, 12:15 PM
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Originally Posted by OlgaNikolaievna View Post
Then this means he believes the intestines may not be Anderson's therefore he believes they belonged to somebody else which means they must have been exchanged. If he questions the chain of custody then he is questioning that the intestines tested were those of Anderson so this means he believes they are switched.
I am not comfortable speaking for Chat.
They way I interpreted it was that because of the questions surrounding the chain of custody the samples or results of tests from those samples would be inadmissible in a court of law.
  #388  
Old 06-20-2008, 12:49 PM
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Lexi got it right. Because of the questionable chain of custody of the samples from where the DNA came, the DNA results would not be allowed as evidence in court. That's why this case is still open and creating so much interest from both parties.
Now, back to the language. If you were on the run from the Bolsheviks, young and naive and without anybody to cling to in this whole, wide world. What would you do when you were picked up by the German police? I think you would try to pretend that you were German in order to "blend in" and not be discovered as being Russian and risk being sent back to Russia for execution.
  #389  
Old 06-20-2008, 12:56 PM
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Originally Posted by lexi4 View Post
I am not comfortable speaking for Chat.
They way I interpreted it was that because of the questions surrounding the chain of custody the samples or results of tests from those samples would be inadmissible in a court of law.
But weren't the samples labeled carefully as being Anderson's? This is written in Robert K. Massie's book. We have two separate backups. In 1979 when Dr. Shrum did surgery on Mrs. Manahan, we took slides of the tissue, in addition to preserving in paraffin the larger blocks of the excised tissue. Taking slides when doing surgery is routine, you take it, you look at it, and say, there is cancer, or it's not cancer, or it's an infection or whatever. We preserve these slides in one place and the paraffin wax in a totally different place. "Furthermore, when we moved the tissue from storage back to the hospital in early 1993, Dr, Thomas Dudley, the assistant pathologist, cut some new slides from one of the blocks. We compared these new slides cut in 1993 with those slides cut in 1979 and they were identical. If someone had swapped them in storage during the last couple of years, they would not have matched. And the chance that anybody was able to get to both locations and switch both slides without access to specimen numbers is impossible." It seems to me that there is sufficient evidence that the intestines were hers and if somebody thinks they were not they need to produce proof of this or they don't have a case at all against the hospital and scientists. Who switched them, what did they switch them with, how and when did this happen and what was the reason? Only saying that you don't believe the intestines to be hers is not enough we need answers.
  #390  
Old 06-20-2008, 01:47 PM
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Originally Posted by OlgaNikolaievna View Post
Franziska was Anna Anderson, they are the same person. The DNA proved this with a 99.9% match. .
Looking up the thread about establishing the identity of Anna Anderson you'll see that this is not true. Please, check at least the information agreed upon on these forums before making claims that are not based on facts. it is quite annoying to run around in circles because the same false claims appear again and again. If the case was so properly resolved, no one in their right mind would still argue about it.

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Originally Posted by AnastasiaEvidence View Post
She did speak in German. She's been in Germany for a couple of years. But, her nationality was Polish. She was born in Poland as FS.She's from Pamerania.
Maybe you should invest a bit of your time in researching German and Polish history. Pomerania (Pommern) has been German territory since the Middle Ages and was till the end of WWII. The father of my father came from there and he had a "Polish" name but still the family can trace their German roots back over centuries. So this is something you obviously know nothing about and even though people tried to correct you, you don't listen and don't get additional information. This is not how discussions should be, IMHO.

Information about Pomerania's history: History of Pomerania - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

"19th century Pomerania province was virtually entirely German and Germanized".
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  #391  
Old 06-20-2008, 02:20 PM
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I remember reading that Alex didn't stop speaking German until after the outbreak of WWI. I believe it was after that, she stopped speaking it at all.
That's what amuses me about people saying she NEVER spoke German. Queen Victoria married Albert who was German. Vickie, their first daughter spoke what? 5 languages including German by the time she was 3--or was it 3 languages by the time she was 5? Princess Alice married, guess what? A GERMAN Prince. And after her death, though they spent a lot of time in england, I hardly think they forgot their German, especially given that once transferred to the Russian court--Ella and Alix--many of their relatives were German Princesses.
  #392  
Old 06-20-2008, 02:28 PM
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To add on: Victoria's mother was a German princess of Saxe. Victoria and Albert's second son became the reigning Duke of Saxe-Coburg and Gotha and his daughter married first Ernest of Hesse and secondly Grand Duke Kyrill of Russia... What do you think Victoria Melita spoke? Plus the Hannoveran kings of the UK married German princesses to secure/further their interest in Germany - in a country already deep in conflicts about national identity and not only about the conflict between Prussia and Austria about being the leading power in the middle or Europe. The whole upper class of Prussia and Austria spoke German, even if it was Bohemia or Hungary where they lived because this was the language their rulers spoke. And the Russians travelled to the Austrian and German spas alot... So speaking German simply was a commodity for them. They did not speak it like or as their mother tongue but it was the language spoken in their favorite Foreign holiday spots like Karlsbad or Baden-Baden.
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  #393  
Old 06-20-2008, 02:41 PM
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Please go to this link and read it very carefully.

Anastasia: The Unmasking Of Anna Anderson
  #394  
Old 06-20-2008, 02:44 PM
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Originally Posted by Menarue View Post
Please go to this link and read it very carefully.

Anastasia: The Unmasking Of Anna Anderson
You know, I've read that. Apart form the fact that it's overly religious IMHO it is absolutely one-sided in its approach about the question of identity. For each argument stated there, you can find another contra-argument on the web or in books. I'm much more interested in a discussion, in a exchange of arguments and facts which leaves open the possibility to accept or discount.
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  #395  
Old 06-20-2008, 02:48 PM
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Originally Posted by Menarue View Post
Please go to this link and read it very carefully.

Anastasia: The Unmasking Of Anna Anderson
Menarue, this is an article from a man who's Australian who never met Anna Anderson.
Now, Peter Kurth, who HAS, will tell you she neither confirmed nor denied who she was. She would just keep telling him "I am who I am."
  #396  
Old 06-20-2008, 03:00 PM
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I agree, but I also agree with the word that was used "gullible" and also his explanation about how easy it would be tutor someone on small details.
It can sometimes be easy to fool someone with very little. I once won a small wager by knowing only how to say "Good evening", "thank you" and (of all strange phrases) "I want an apple" in Greek, that I could convince the Greek waiter serving our table aboard a liner that I spoke Greek. The only problem was that as dessert I had to eat an apple each evening.
Coached by the doctor´s son in trivia it wouldn´t take AA that much effort and by this time she was probably half convinced she was the Grand Duchess herself. Then there were the interested parties who would have loved to find that the Grand Duchess had survived.
Me too, but the DNA for me in irrefutable.
  #397  
Old 06-20-2008, 03:06 PM
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But what if the DNA is wrong?
And it could be. After all, we have people making movies that 911 was a cover up by the US government and we did it ourselves and that there was no Taliban. Does that sound far-fetched? It does to me, but there are people out there who believe that whole-heartedly. I have a brother who believes that. There is nothing I can say to dissuade him. So I let him ramble. And though I don't believe him, he does have his points because he does his homework and I respect his opinion for that. It is the same with this case.
  #398  
Old 06-20-2008, 03:51 PM
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Yes, I have already read it carefully, and here are my notes:

1: It states that it is Maria who is missing from the grave. (Some people seem obsessed with putting the Anastasia story to rest.)

2: He says that the unknown woman was pulled from the canal shortly after FS's disappearance. WRONG. FS disappeared almost three weeks after AA was found.

3: He states that the DNA identified her as FS. Read Elspeth's post from yesterday.

4: He states that no-one knew for certain what fate had befallen the Imperial Family. Later, he states that there was a Berliner Illustrierte at Dalldorf, dated 10.23.21 that gave all the details about the execution and the rumor about Anastasia being alive. AA told the nurses at Dalldorf about the last night in Ekaterinburg, about her father being shot first, about the jewels hidden in the clothing etc. And the nurses stated that the magazines lying around were rather old.

5: "Supporters fed her information". Pure speculation.

6: Gleb Botkin was cunning and used her for his own aims? More speculation.

7. Botkin was a source of obscure information that Anderson would recount as memories? He met her in 1927, years after Harriet Rathleff-Keilmann had filled a book of AA's memories.

8. "When Anderson was questioned by Romanoff family representatives on specific events....." Names, please.

9. "The fact she couldn't speak or read Russian, English or French at the time ..." Only problem is, that this was not a "fact".

10. "He (Gleb Botkin) also created the prevailing myth the Grand Duchesses Xenia and Olga (sisters of Nicholas II) tried to bribe Anderson to renounce her claim with the offer of a house anywhere in the world and a generous annuity, an impossibility considering their precarious financial situations."
According to Botkin, Xenia Leeds told him that AA was promised a place to live in Europe if she would renounce her claim. Grand Duchess Xenia went to the Bank of England on the 10th anniversary of the murder of the IF and found out that no information and no money was available due to AA's claim. She yelled at Xenia Leeds, who in turn yelled at Botkin, and AA refused to go along with the demand of renouncing her claim and left Oyster Bay. You really have to read Botkin's book to get the details, it's quite a mess.

11. "Anderson's supporters were also responsible for her childhood "memory" of Alexandra's brother, the Grand Duke of Hesse, visiting Russia during the First World War." No, they were not. When Harriet Rathlef-Keilmann asked AA if she had ever met her uncle Ernie, AA said "yes". "When did you see him last?" "During the war, at home with us in Russia."

12. "From the outset money was the principal objective, and Gleb Botkin became increasingly obsessed with tracing and claiming tsarist assets. When paranoid legitimate claimants would beat them he urged legal action be taken to have Anderson recognized Nicholas II's heir." Gleb Botkin was not obsessed. He was asked by AA to make sure that her relatives did not get the money she believed was in a bank in England as dowry for the four Grand Duchesses. He engaged Edward Fallows to help her, and shortly after he and AA had a falling out, and he did not see her for another 10 years.

13. "Before she became Anastasia, Franziska Schanzkowska was mentally unstable. Incarcerated in two mental hospitals before disappearing in 1920, tantrums and breakdowns were regular occurrences and her most devoted supporters considered her impossible to live with." Her most devoted supporters? Who were the devoted supporters of FS? The Wingenders?

14. "Her psychiatric problems may have been caused or exacerbated by the serious head injuries suffered in 1916 from a hand grenade explosion," From medical reports from the AEG factory and statements from FS's family, we know that FS suffered no injuries from the explosion.

15. "During a visit to the United States in 1930 she suffered a breakdown and was certified "dangerous to herself and others" and committed to a mental hospital, not the first or last such incarceration." She was not certified, she was just hauled away while 3 doctors were paid very well for signing the admission papers. As soon as she arrived at Ilten sanatorium in Germany, she was told that she was free to go, there was nothing wrong with her.

16. "During the 1920's she was almost constantly in and out of one German hospital or another, mental or general. We can only speculate whether during any of these frequent spells away from prying eyes if Anderson underwent cosmetic surgery of some sort, to create or enhance features and flaws to match those of the real Anastasia. " Speculate, indeed! She was placed at Dalldorf asylum since the police had no idea of what to do with her. Her later hospitalisations were for tuberculosis of the arm.

17. "At first she accepted her identity, however the realisation she was considerably shorter was a factor in her switch to Anastasia." There was no switch, she confessed to Thea Malinowsky in 1921 that she was Anastasia.

18. "Her childhood friends remembered her (FS) as pretentious, putting on airs and graces." And according to her own sister Gertrude, she was "just one of the girls."
  #399  
Old 06-20-2008, 05:15 PM
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Originally Posted by Jo of Palatine View Post
Looking up the thread about establishing the identity of Anna Anderson you'll see that this is not true. Please, check at least the information agreed upon on these forums before making claims that are not based on facts. it is quite annoying to run around in circles because the same false claims appear again and again. If the case was so properly resolved, no one in their right mind would still argue about it.
Thus far two independant DNA tests show that Anna Anderson's DNA matched that of the Schanzkowski family (and not of Romanov relatives like the DoE). The Anna Anderson supporters do not have anything approaching that scientific evidence other than insinuations of big black conspiracies IMO... To almost everybody this issue has been properly resolved, as most people do believe Anna Anderson's claim was false. Now we can continue argue in circles about this matter, and I am sure we will (with many interesting information/discussions as a result) but the case has been properly resolved for a vast majority of historians, relatives and former supporters even.
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  #400  
Old 06-20-2008, 05:31 PM
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Yes, I must admit, the DNA evidence is very, very strong. But how can two different people have the same ears, the same congenital bilateral hallux valgus, the same hair color, the same eye color, the same height, the same laughter, the same gait, the same scars, the same face, the same temperament, the same interests, the same mannerisms, in short, be identical and still be two different people? And then be recognized as the Grand Duchess by many people to boot? And have a wealth of information about the IF and their life in Russia?
I don't think we'll ever see an acceptable solution.
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