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  #341  
Old 06-19-2008, 07:54 PM
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Kurenai, here's a site I found to prove my point about those I consider fanatics. Of course they are free to do this, I just find it odd and, in my opinion, I think it's unbalanced, but that's just me. Notice also, there are lots and lots of Romanovs and Romanov players on this site listed as "friends".
MySpace.com - Anna Anderson Exposed - 85 - Female - Charlottesville, Virginia - www.myspace.com/annaandersonexposed
To quote Guns and Roses, Kurenai, "Welcome to the jungle!"
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  #342  
Old 06-19-2008, 07:55 PM
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Originally Posted by AnastasiaEvidence View Post
This is another example of something that never been proven. These are only rumours.
No, they are not "rumors", they are actual affidavits in the German court.
Quote:
If, AA knew Russian, and French , I would think she would try to prove it to Olga Alexandrovna and Pierre Gilliard. They said she didn't know any, and wanted to speak in German. So, they instantly knew that wasn't Anastasia.But, she didn't so therefore that isn't true.
If Gilliard instantly knew that it was not Anastasia, why did Olga come all the way to Berlin to see her? And remember, Gilliard had to admit in the Hamburg court that AA spoke Russian to Shura. I think we know now that the man was a liar, he has been caught in quite a few of them.
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The people who actually talked to Anastasia, in those languages. The AA supporters like to make up
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differences between Franziska Schanzkowska and, such as the languages they spoke and physical differences. If AA claimed she knew Russian why didn't she speak it? She was only adding on lies and excuses to that.
AA claimed that she knew no Russian and spoke no Russian, not the reverse.
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Yes, Russian is very similar to Polish. The dialet is very similar.. Completely different langauges though. AA/FS was born in 1896 in Poland.
FS was born in Germany. The town she was born in, is now in Poland.
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She was nearly five years older than the Real Anastasia.AA is a fraud; she was Franziska a Polish factory worker. People are only refusing to believe in this because they make up excuses about AA and FS disapearing at a different time. I know you haven't read much on the Imperial family.
FS was a GERMAN factory worker. And again, they did not disappear at a different time: AA was found on February 17th, 1920. Franziska disappeared on March 9th, 1920.
Quote:
Obviously, you are getting the wrong information from the wrong people. They didn't even know Anastasia as much as the people who was against AA. What about when she acted like she was Roman Catholic! Anastasia, was Russian Orthodox the opposite of Catholism.
AA never acted as a Roman Catholic. That was a rumor started by Markov, who was sitting some distance behind her in church and could not see how she crossed herself. According to Harriet Rathlef-Keilmann, Ms. Speier, Mr. Urvantsov and the clergy at Schloss Seeon, AA knew the Russian Orthodox rites extremely well.
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Felix said this:
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I claim categorically that Anna Anderson is not Anastasia Nicolaievna, but just an adventuress, a sick hysteric and a frightful playactress. I simply cannot understand how anyone can be in doubt of this. If you had seen her, I am convinced that you would recoil in horror at the thought that this frightful creature could be a daughter of our Tsar ... These false pretenders ought to be gathered up and sent to live in a house somewhere.
This is the same Felix who later was willing to change his view against a portion of the fabled tsarist fortune, isn't it?
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Many decades before the DNA testing many people found it ridiculous, to believe AA's garbage and rubbish. It's very sad, and disgraceful!
And many people believed in her.
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Anastasia, never knew Geman! Alix, was born in Germany. But, she grew up in England with her grandmother Queen Victoria. Princess Alix spoke with a proper English accent. The grand duchesses didn't need to know German because their Hohenzollern relatives already knew English. There is no proof of OTMA speaking German. I haven't seen one of Anastasia's schoolbooks in German. Maybe, in French, English and Russian! But, NOT GERMAN! I've never seen any of Anastasia's letters in German.
Her school books were found on an auction in London and purchased to see if it was possible to find a fingerprint in one of them. But the little Grand Duchess was very neat, and not a single smudge could be found that bore her fingerprint. What the books showed, however, was that her German bore fewer mistakes than her Russian.
Quote:
Yes, you are right, Minna Becker said AA and Anastasia's signatures match. The court didn't even include that, though they said it wasn't enough of the signatures! But, on the other hand Pierre Gilliard said that she's been practicing and trying to immitate Anastasia's handwriting. It's just like with the photographs, AA tried to immitate Anastasia's expressions in the photos so she can trick people into thinking she's Anastasia. She went to America, so she can get Americans to believe that she was Anastasia! She had a scheme.
This would be the same Gilliard who said that AA's signature on a postcard from the hospital looked very much like Anastasia's when she was about 13, wouldn't it? And how AA could mimic photos of Anastasia when most of these photos were not published till many, many years later, is beyond me. As for the trip to America, that was arranged by Xenia Leeds. No scheme involved here.
Quote:
Yeah...right! Although I never even met you. It's quite said you don't have your facts straight! No, I think, I know a lot more about OTM and especially Anastasia more than you do! If you did, you wouldn't be believing in AA. Or, mentioning anything about Anastasia speaking any German. She never did! You don't want to see the truth!
I think it is transparently obvious who has the facts right here.
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I don't agree. Dr. Furtmayr, believes AA was Anastasia. I don't think AA would have won her case because many of Anastasia's family members knew AA wasn't Anastasia. They were trying to work to end AA and her phony ways. They were really getting sick and tired of her trying to pretend to be a member of the Imperial family.
Wrong, Dr. Furtmayr proved that AA was AN. That the family was sick and tired of her is another matter.
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Right!
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Gilliard did say that. He said only the colour of their eyes were the same. Their eyes were shaped differently, though. But, the other features such as the lips, nose and mouth are different.
The patient had a long nose, strongly turned up at the end, a very large mouth, thick and fleshy lips; the grand duchess, on the other hand, had a short, sharp nose, a much smaller mouth and fine lips .... Apart from the colour of the eyes, we could find nothing to make us believe that this was the grand duchess.
Again, why did he ask Olga to come to Berlin after having seen AA? Seems to me that he changed his opinion for other reasons.
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  #343  
Old 06-19-2008, 08:02 PM
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Ths sad thing is that it is at this point difficult to prove a great many things. So, who knows, if we will ever know. And in the end result, what is the difference. Russphile is correct, fanatics are just that.
  #344  
Old 06-19-2008, 09:46 PM
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Wow... A lot of facts... and some dose of fiction here and there too.. The legend of Anastasia will live on for precisely that reason. There's always an element of mystery and romance to it... :)

I don't mind speculations, theories, and even debates... The only thing I couldn't stand was that terrible animated film that came out 6-7 years ago... If I remember trailer correctly, it was about Anastasia and the "evil" Rasputin or something.
  #345  
Old 06-19-2008, 11:42 PM
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I cannot understand why anyone wants this to remain a mystery. This is not a cartoon or a fairy tale or a movie this was the lives of real people. The DNA has proven that Anna Anderson was not Anastasia sorry if you don't like that but it's true. The only way you can continue this 'mystery' is to call all of the scientists liars and why??! What is the purpose of lying this is what I don't understand. There are no lies no mystery only a few people who refuse to let this story die and the family rest in peace.
  #346  
Old 06-19-2008, 11:47 PM
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So if the DNA has proven that AA was FS, why will the proof not hold up in any court of law? Simply because the chain of custody of the samples from where the DNA was extracted is rather poor. The mystery has therefore never been oficially solved.
  #347  
Old 06-19-2008, 11:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChatNoir View Post
So if the DNA has proven that AA was FS, why will the proof not hold up in any court of law? Simply because the chain of custody of the samples from where the DNA was extracted is rather poor. The mystery has therefore never been oficially solved.
It hasn't. The authors of the paper specifically said that although the DNA evidence shows that Anna Anderson wasn't a member of the Imperial family, it doesn't prove (although it strongly supports) the notion that she was Franziska Schankowska.
  #348  
Old 06-20-2008, 02:42 AM
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I donīt understand this. If the dna tests showed that AA was not a member of the Imperial family well she wasnīt. If I understand rightly the only thing not proven was that AA was F but there were strong indications that she was,I canīt see what this has to do with the Romanovs. So that is the end of any imagined mystery. Anastasia, rest in peace, did not survive the brutal massacre of herself, parents, servants and even pet dogs.
May their murderers never rest in peace.
Some people want a mystery I would rather know the answer.
Like the Mary Celeste, I was always intrigued by this mystery, then I saw a documentary that satisfied me completely. The Captain of the salvage ship lied. So many years, so many books, so many theories and really the mystery hinged on the declarations of a Captain and crew, fantastic as their story seemed people liked the mystery and so believed them.
I have read about the tests on the dna of the Imperial family, I believe that there is no longer a mystery, instead of trying to prove something which is in the realms of fantasy it would be better to say a prayer or two for the murdered family.
  #349  
Old 06-20-2008, 06:25 AM
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The mystery continues if only from the aspect that we don't know who AA was? There is no conclusive evidence that she was FS. So if she was not Anastasia, who was she? And more importantly how and why was she able to pull all of this off for so many years. Keep in mind, there were and are people who believe she was AN. Also keep in mind, that there are questions about the chain of custody. So see? The mystery continues without calling anyone a liar.
  #350  
Old 06-20-2008, 07:16 AM
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Not liars, hoodwinked.
  #351  
Old 06-20-2008, 07:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AnastasiaEvidence View Post
No, Aunt Olga isn't my aunt. She's Anastasia aunt. Olga was very close to the imperial family. She's the youngest sister of Tsar Nicholas II. She was the daughter of both Marie Dagmar and Alexander III. You should be interested in what Olga says, because she's one of the people who proved that Anna Anderson was the true fraud and liar she really is.
The first question a good lawyer is asking is: what had she to gain? How much more important was it to her to keep her mother happy, who wanted to deny what had happened in Russia or how much money did she hope she'd get once Nicholas and the whole family were dead?

History teaches that when people start to react in an implausible way or do strange, illogical things or avoid to do the obvious, they have an agenda - a very good reason in their own thinking to act that way. If eg the Grandduke of Hesse really had been interested in finding out if AA was AN and had not been set to prove in any case that she wasn't the Grandduchess, then he would have gone to meet her.

As it is, it may be your opinion that AA wasn't Anastasia, but I have yet to see convincing evidence that she was a liar and a fraud and I'm afraid we'll never have that proof.
Quote:
Originally Posted by AnastasiaEvidence View Post
Yes, that is true Anna Anderson didn't know any Russian. Remember, Anna Anderson said that she didn't want to speak the langauge of the people who murdered her so called 'family'. It was of course an excuse. It wasn't proven that she knew Russian. I believe she did know a litte German.I don't believe her English was good either, it was very terrible and broken. She didn't know French either.
In what language exactly did Anna Anderson talk when she was found? you say she didn't speak Russian and French and only a little German and English - did she speak in Mandarin then?
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  #352  
Old 06-20-2008, 08:19 AM
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Originally Posted by AnastasiaEvidence View Post
Oh, please! Everyone knows that your goddess is Anna Anderson. Your defending her like she's your god. You have been doing it for many years!
It seems to me that you two do know each other over many years from different forums. But is there any need that your discussion, which obviously turned into open dislike at least from your side, is continued here in this aggressive way? I'm quite willing to discuss in a as serious as possible manner about the fascinating question of Anna Anderson aka Anastasia Romanov. But I take definate exception at having to read that whoever doesn't believe in Anastasia's death in 1917 is a kind of grave robber or worse.
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  #353  
Old 06-20-2008, 08:25 AM
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Quote:
I cannot understand why anyone wants this to remain a mystery. This is not a cartoon or a fairy tale or a movie this was the lives of real people. The DNA has proven that Anna Anderson was not Anastasia sorry if you don't like that but it's true. The only way you can continue this 'mystery' is to call all of the scientists liars and why??! What is the purpose of lying this is what I don't understand. There are no lies no mystery only a few people who refuse to let this story die and the family rest in peace.
Exactly! It is no fairytale, nor mystery. It really is sick. I believe the real Anastasia,would be angry at you all asking if she was AA or not! I agree, the DNA is very ample evidence.You all are lying about the truth. I'm the one who really knows so much about the Real Anastasia. Anastasia' family members already had enough to deal with including the fact that Aunt Irene lost her sister Alix, and Grand duchess Ellla. The the fact, that Olga Alexandrovna lost her brother Nicky and his four daughters and son.


Quote:
It seems to me that you two do know each other over many years from different forums. But is there any need that your discussion, which obviously turned into open dislike at least from your side, is continued here in this aggressive way? I'm quite willing to discuss in a as serious as possible manner about the fascinating question of Anna Anderson aka Anastasia Romanov. But I take definate exception at having to read that whoever doesn't believe in Anastasia's death in 1917 is a kind of grave robber or worse.
You're very ridiculous. Anastasia acutally died in July 17, 1918. No, 1917 you are so wrong! AA was some woman who came from a wounded explosion and tried to kill herself. I know you don't know who the Real Anastaisa is, she's the mischeivious, playful, smart, carefree and funny girl. AA was, a mentally ill, sick, and lacked the traits Anastasia had. The people who supported AA, seeked for fame and money as well. They, made movies, based on her all completely inaccurate. It's such as disagrace to Anastasia. If, they really read and know Anastasia personally they wouldn't see this suicidal, physiological, psychopath,mentally ill woman as Anastasia.


Quote:
The first question a good lawyer is asking is: what had she to gain? How much more important was it to her to keep her mother happy, who wanted to deny what had happened in Russia or how much money did she hope she'd get once Nicholas and the whole family were dead?
That doesn't even make any sense! AA wasn't Anastasia. Clara suggested she might be Tatiana. AA first pretended to be Tatiana, then Baroness Sophie Buxhoevedon told her she was too short to be Tatiana. So, then she decided to be Anastasia. She did do it all for the money, fame, and attention! It's why Botkin too her to America, so she can get Americans to believe her story. FS/AA left at 18, to go to Germany. Then she got exploded by a grenade. That's were AA's wounds came from. It's good thing, most of Anastasia's family members were against AA. Ernest did do all he could to stop AA and her fraud ways. He wanted justice for his niece. AA made up a trip when Ernest visit Russia in 1916. That is false, Ernest never went to Russia in 1916.

Then Sophie said this:

The eyes and forehead showed some resemblance to the Grand Duchess Tatiana Nicolaievna, resemblance that disappeared, nevertheless, as soon as her face was not covered. I had to remove the cover by force, and I saw that neither the nose, the mouth, nor the chin were formed like that of the Grand Duchess.

I later learned that the she supposes that she is the Grand Duchess Anastasia, but she does not physically resemble her in the least. She has none of the special characteristics that would allow any one who knew the Grand Duchess Anastasia well to identify her.

Quote:

As it is, it may be your opinion that AA wasn't Anastasia, but I have yet to see convincing evidence that she was a liar and a fraud and I'm afraid we'll never have that proof.
Yes, it is my thought, I believe and think that Anastasia wasn't Anna Anderson. I believe there is many things to prove that AA is a fraud. The fact that she was living in a house with hundreds of cats, and when she tried to kill herself. Then, the time she She was also in two hospitals also, before she went missing. In the summer of 1922, Anderson disappeared from the home of her benefactors, and Franziska reappeared at the home of the Wingenders.

Quote:
History teaches that when people start to react in an implausible way or do strange, illogical things or avoid to do the obvious, they have an agenda - a very good reason in their own thinking to act that way. If eg the Grandduke of Hesse really had been interested in finding out if AA was AN and had not been set to prove in any case that she wasn't the Grandduchess, then he would have gone to meet her.
But, Ernest already saw her photos, and read her story. He didn't have to go met AA. He knew his sister Alix, and her family didn't survive. He notice that she ddin't even look like Anastasia. Then, Olga Alexandrovana, Princess Irene, Felix Yussupov, Gilliard, and Gibbes ALL denied AA. I don't believe any of the Romanovs survived. I will never believe it! It's the truth anyway.

Quote:
In what language exactly did Anna Anderson talk when she was found? you say she didn't speak Russian and French and only a little German and English - did she speak in Mandarin then?
AA talked in German. She didn't even want to talk to Aunt Olga, in Russian or to Gilliard in French.No, she didn't speak Mandarin! She is from Poland. Born in Pomerania! Which is also Poland!

Quote:
So if the DNA has proven that AA was FS, why will the proof not hold up in any court of law? Simply because the chain of custody of the samples from where the DNA was extracted is rather poor. The mystery has therefore never been oficially solved.
AA's DNA matched FS. The DNA also told us that AA didn't match Prince Phillip's DNA. He's Victoria of Battenburg's relative a sister of Alix of Hesse.

This will be my last post. I really don't have time to argue with you people. It's very pointless!
  #354  
Old 06-20-2008, 08:27 AM
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Originally Posted by Jo of Palatine View Post
In what language exactly did Anna Anderson talk when she was found? you say she didn't speak Russian and French and only a little German and English - did she speak in Mandarin then?
That is a very good point Jo, what language did she speak? I donīt think AA necessarily had anything material to gain but perhaps she had an enormous inferiority complex and it made her, perhaps for the first time in her life, important and the centre of attention. She may not have even thought about it at first but when people started to notice a resemblance it would be a huge temptation for a modest working class girl. Then there is the lying Stockholm like syndrome, perhaps along the line she actually convinced herself it was true.
  #355  
Old 06-20-2008, 09:09 AM
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Originally Posted by Jo of Palatine View Post
The first question a good lawyer is asking is: what had she to gain?
Good points Jo.
I think it is safe to say that the Grandduke of Hesse did have an agenda. As for Marie, Nicholas's mother, she went to her grave believing that the IF was still alive. She never did except the execution. I wish I could remember where I read that. It might have been in Vorres, but I'm not sure.
Olga, however, was heavily influenced my her mother's whims and desires. She would not have wanted to cross her mother or upset her in any way.
  #356  
Old 06-20-2008, 09:19 AM
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Is it that you people believe that she really was Anastasia and that people lied and tricked people into believing she wasn't and you think that is still happening today? If so you must also believe the DNA tests were rigged. Please explain who would do this and for what purpose?
  #357  
Old 06-20-2008, 09:26 AM
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That is a very good point Jo, what language did she speak? I donīt think AA necessarily had anything material to gain but perhaps she had an enormous inferiority complex and it made her, perhaps for the first time in her life, important and the centre of attention. She may not have even thought about it at first but when people started to notice a resemblance it would be a huge temptation for a modest working class girl. Then there is the lying Stockholm like syndrome, perhaps along the line she actually convinced herself it was true.
I can understand that motive. But my mother is from a German family who lived in what is today Poland but was Germany pre-WWII and they were quite well-off, so could afford to have staff, maids etc.. I talked to her and to my grandmother about the Franziska-theory and both said that there is no way any girl from a background like Franziska's could have convinced anyone back then that she was from an upper-class background. It would have taken more than the two years between 1918 and 1920 to teach any woman only the basics of behaviour and if someone did, why hadn't this unknown person not bothered with the languages? So Anna Anderson who had the manners suitable for an upper-class woman, definately wasn't this Franziska. Especially as Franziska was still "accounted for" when AA was found - I simply can't see how one person can be in two places at the same time.

What makes me so suspicious is the fact that it should have been easy to clear this discrepancy in dates back then, but obviously noone was really interested in it. If the police reported Franziska missing at a given date, it is rather implausible that they got the dates wrong, as this is not how German police (and burocracy in Germany in general) works. Same for the report of finding Anna Anderson in the canal. If dates are affixed to these reports, this is a very strong indication that these dates are correct.

So Franziska can't be Anna Anderson, IMHO.
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  #358  
Old 06-20-2008, 09:33 AM
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Originally Posted by OlgaNikolaievna View Post
Is it that you people believe that she really was Anastasia and that people lied and tricked people into believing she wasn't and you think that is still happening today? If so you must also believe the DNA tests were rigged. Please explain who would do this and for what purpose?
AFAIK there is no concludent proof that the DNA in question really belonged to Anna Anderson. When DNA-testing became a possibility, Anna Anderson was already dead and her body had been cremated. The samples used were found and transported to the lab under such circumstances that they could have been tampered with, so though scientifically the tests were surely okay, the results are not necessarily proof against Anna Anderson. As she didn't leave children, it is a meaningless game anyway, as I personally don't see how any proof can be found today. Even with the bones in Jekaterinburg some scientists claim that it's not even possible after such a long time under bad circumstances to find which bone belonged to which corpse. So it could well be that parts of corpses declared to be of "Tatiana" and "Maria" are in fact only from one of the Grand Duchesses.
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  #359  
Old 06-20-2008, 09:34 AM
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Jo we are agreed.
There is one thing that perhaps you are overlooking. I agree with your mother about a servant learning how to behave etc etc although there is a saying here in Portugal that says more or less "As many miladies as on a maidīs day off". They pick up (or let us say they did as these things are back in the past) mannerisms from their employers.
There have been many people in the past who have passed themselves off as aristocrats (and some still do) but they are definitely not.
In my opinion Franzisca couldnīt be Anna Anderson and also IMHO Anna Anderson in no way can be the Grand Duchess Anastasia.
  #360  
Old 06-20-2008, 09:39 AM
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Interesting saying. I could see that they would pick up mannerisms, but not languages so much or some of the details Anna Anderson knew. I also agree that there is no way Anna could have been FS. I don't think FS could have passed herself off as an aristocrat.
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