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  #2201  
Old 11-13-2008, 07:52 PM
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I still say that AA was an alien. And we all know that aliens aren't Grand Duchesses or Polish factory workers!
AA had to be FS, they had too many similarities. FS, was declared mentally insane just like AA was. FS disapeared right before AA was a Berlin. AA defiantly had the same sign of mental illness as FS did. This woman walked on the roof necked, and attacking people with sticks.

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But seriously, I don't think she was either Grand Duchess Anastasia or Franziska Schanzkowska. Maybe one day we'll find out who she really was.
We already found out who AA was. I don't understand why people continue on making this into a mystery. It's NOT a mystery. DNA proved it successfully.AA is FS, and has been proven so many times for over many decades.
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Old 11-13-2008, 08:09 PM
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Here is what Gibbes said p. 53 The Last Days of the Romanovs book:

>>In regard to the rubies you have shown me, I can state that the imperial family had quite a number of them in their various articles of jewelry...<<

>>the sapphires looked very much like grafments of the stone that the emperor had in his ring.<<

There are photographs of
1. "Relics found near the pyres" [this is the area where the clothing was burned] which was the Empress' pectoral cross set with emeralds and a great diamond pendant
2. Pearl earring of the Empress'

Wilton doesn't tell us from who told him about the information about the jewels being sewn into the grand duchesses clothes when they were at Tobolsk. For example Wilton wrote:

>>Before separating, it had been understood between mother and daughters that they would take measures for safeguarding the jewels....<<
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  #2203  
Old 11-13-2008, 09:10 PM
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Originally Posted by AGRBear View Post

When did AA say anything about the jewels? In other words was it before or after Wilton's book was published?
Don't you know? The AA supporters always use it to try to say she had 'inside info' 'only AN would know.' I thought for sure you'd have a Kurth page quote ready. But of course, she said it after the book came out 1920, since she wasn't pretending to be AN in that year.



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PS
Found my original 1920 edition. The quote above is on p. 289.
Which is what I said in my post. Also there is mention on page 306, 344, and the hidden jewels being called 'medicines' is referred to by Gilliard on page 30. You know you can use that link I posted to search for any word or phrase, and it usually gives you the page numbers they're on.

http://books.google.com/books?hl=en&...PIJIE#PPA39,M1
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  #2204  
Old 11-13-2008, 09:13 PM
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Originally Posted by AnastasiaEvidence View Post
AA had to be FS, they had too many similarities. FS, was declared mentally insane just like AA was. FS disapeared right before AA was a Berlin. AA defiantly had the same sign of mental illness as FS did. This woman walked on the roof necked, and attacking people with sticks.


We already found out who AA was. I don't understand why people continue on making this into a mystery. It's NOT a mystery. DNA proved it successfully.AA is FS, and has been proven so many times for over many decades.
True, and anyone who doesn't believe AA was FS should take a look at the pictures too. AA was a dead ringer for FS (because she was FS)

http://www.freewebs.com/anastasiafra.../anisfran2.jpg

Anna Anderson: Exposed! | The Fact, Fiction and Fantasy surrounding the myth of "Anastasia"

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  #2205  
Old 11-13-2008, 09:16 PM
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True, and anyone who doesn't believe AA was FS should take a look at the pictures too. AA was a dead ringer for FS (because she was FS)
People just don't have evidence to prove that 'AA couldn't be FS'. AA and FS have so many similarities they are the same person!
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  #2206  
Old 11-13-2008, 09:26 PM
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Originally Posted by AnastasiaEvidence View Post
People just don't have evidence to prove that 'AA couldn't be FS'. AA and FS have so many similarities they are the same person!

It's very obvious AA was FS, all the evidence points to it, the DNA backed it up, and it's been known since 1927. Some people just do not want to believe she was FS so much that they deny it, because it must not be exciting enough for them. Some would rather believe she was AN, others who don't believe she was AN would still rather believe she was something more mysterious and interesting than a Polish factory worker. I don't understand either, because to me the story of her being FS is interesting, too. That's who she was, all along.
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  #2207  
Old 11-13-2008, 10:12 PM
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It's very obvious AA was FS, all the evidence points to it, the DNA backed it up, and it's been known since 1927. Some people just do not want to believe she was FS so much that they deny it, because it must not be exciting enough for them. Some would rather believe she was AN, others who don't believe she was AN would still rather believe she was something more mysterious and interesting than a Polish factory worker. I don't understand either, because to me the story of her being FS is interesting, too. That's who she was, all along.
I'm quite sure these people understand the truth and major evidence. But, they just choose to not believe it. They rather believe in something else that doesn't have concreate evidence to prove. They just want to make this into a mystery, I don't think they are actually interested in the Imperial family . All they care for is the mystery to be kept alive, so it can be some reason to be interested in the imperial family. Over sixty years ago, Ernest also pointed out the fact that AA was FS, the missing Polish factory worker because she was in the same area as the missing FS was, and AA's photo looked so much like FS.The photos you posted AWF, show the major similarities between AA and FS.
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  #2208  
Old 11-14-2008, 11:13 AM
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Originally Posted by Anna was Franziska View Post
...You know you can use that link I posted to search for any word or phrase, and it usually gives you the page numbers they're on.

The Last Days of the Romanovs - Google Book Search
I wasn't aware that I could search the book with a key word. Thank you for informing of this.
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  #2209  
Old 11-14-2008, 11:23 AM
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Originally Posted by ChatNoir View Post
Yes, I can prove it. You still do not seem to comprehend that Malinovsky could not have heard any story from AA in the fall of 1922 since they parted ways in May when AA went to Baron von Kleist to live. So it had to happen in fall of 1921, the only fall they spent together. And I did not accuse the newspaper, I said "willfully or not". ... [ in part]....
p. 12 Kurth's ANASTASIA, THE RIDDLE OF ANNA ANDERSON:

>>It was then in the autumn of 1921, that Fraeulin Unbekannt declared outright that she was Her Imperial Highness the Grand Duchess Anastasia Nicolaievna. In the conversation that followed, as Nurse Malinovsky remembered it...She spoke of her sisters and the jewels they had sewn into their clothes in Siberia, of the last night in Ekaterinburg, when "a lady-in-waiting ran about with a cushion in her hands, hiding her face it and screaming", and of "the leader of the murderers of the tsar, (who) who went straight up to her father and his pistole....mocking him and with it and shooting at him."

Approximate date given was "autumn of 1921", so this is after the publication of Telberg/Wilton's book in London and USA.

So we know the part about the jewels sewn into "their clothes" was in Telberg/Wilton's book.

Was the part about Demidovna running around with her "cushion"/ "little pillow" in Telberg/Wilton's book?

And was the information about Yurovsky executing and mocking the Tsar in there too?

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  #2210  
Old 11-14-2008, 11:58 AM
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p. 187 THE LAST DAYS OF THE ROMANOVS:

>>...Demidova was tossing herself about, but was dispatched by by bayonets.<<

There was only one bayonet, which was detached from the rifle because there were no rifles used and then it was just the butts, until later, which was used by Ermakov.

This is found in "examination of a. Iakimoff [I was mistaken, this was not Ermakov as my post said earlier; this is a corrrection] who tells us what happen as he heard it did from others.
p. 190

>>I remember that Deriabin said that Demidova had about thirty bayonet wounds. I told that to my sister.<<

Still looking for the "cushion"/ little pillows.

p. 201
>>...the maid had a pillow. The czar's daughters also brought small pillows with them. One pillow was put on the empress's chair; another on the heir's chair. ...<<

I have to go make breakfast. I'll be back and finish my thoughts on this later today, I hope.

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  #2211  
Old 11-14-2008, 05:24 PM
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Originally Posted by AGRBear View Post
p. 12 Kurth's ANASTASIA, THE RIDDLE OF ANNA ANDERSON:

>>It was then in the autumn of 1921, that Fraeulin Unbekannt declared outright that she was Her Imperial Highness the Grand Duchess Anastasia Nicolaievna. In the conversation that followed, as Nurse Malinovsky remembered it...She spoke of her sisters and the jewels they had sewn into their clothes in Siberia, of the last night in Ekaterinburg, when "a lady-in-waiting ran about with a cushion in her hands, hiding her face it and screaming", and of "the leader of the murderers of the tsar, (who) who went straight up to her father and his pistole....mocking him and with it and shooting at him."

Approximate date given was "autumn of 1921", so this is after the publication of Telberg/Wilton's book in London and USA.

So we know the part about the jewels sewn into "their clothes" was in Telberg/Wilton's book.

Was the part about Demidovna running around with her "cushion"/ "little pillow" in Telberg/Wilton's book?

And was the information about Yurovsky executing and mocking the Tsar in there too?

AGRBear
Do a search to find out if it's in there. Put the word in the box at the top right corner marked 'search book' and click the button. The story of the maid running around is well known, and it's actually silly to pretend to have been a victim and to have observed such a thing, being shot and bayonetted yourself! Wonder if she ever thought of that! The 'mocking' story may have come from a book or never even happened. But even if it wasn't in there, she got it from someone who knew, and much later than 1921. As I have said many times before, I give no value at all to the alleged 'nurse' story. That entire episode is completely unbelievable and makes no sense with later events. AA showed no signs of any interest in being a Grand Duchess until Clara said she looked like Tatiana in1922, and she did nothing to deny it or say she was Anastasia instead until she was declared 'too short' by Bux. If Bux had bought her as "Tatiana" she'd had stayed "Tatiana." Any GD is better than being FS/Miss Unknown.

There are only two possibilities on this 'nurse' story: One, that it never happened, and that the nurse was only helping her claim (possibly in hopes of a payoff?) or, two, she got her dates wrong and it happened much later. Remember she told the newspaper 1922, then changed it to 21 and said it was a 'mistake.' Likely, someone told her the story needed to predate the "Clara" coming-out. I know you say the nurse was not working there in the fall of '22 but it could have happened in the spring, and she got the dates wrong. Obviously, she didn't know the date, and gave the wrong one to the newspaper. So, either she lied or got the date wrong, but the story as AA supporters tell it could not/DID NOT happen in 1921.

Now for something completely different!

RT - 24/7 English-language news channel : Features : Royal family to strike jackpot?

It doesn't mention AA, but since it was a part of her story, here's an interesting article about what money the Tsar had left and what happened to it.
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  #2212  
Old 11-14-2008, 05:31 PM
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Bear, wasn't Ermakov the one who went around stabbing everybody after they executed them by gunfire? I seem to remember King and Wilson writing that.
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  #2213  
Old 11-14-2008, 07:45 PM
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Correction. It was Medvedev, who claimed he wasn't part of the execution. Iakimoff and Ermakov were not the same person. [This occured due to being rushed this morning and I didn't check my facts first. SORRY! But if you were here you'd see how it happened.... "I just love contruction", Bear voiced with tongue in cheek)

When Medvedev was captured by the Whites soon after the execution, he claimed he had not taken part in the execution. His sister testified that Medvedev had told her that he had taken part in the execution.

p. 201 tells us the "Medvedeff" / Medvedev did testify and it was in THE LAST DAYS OF THE TSAR:

>>The maid had a pillow. The czar's daughters also brought small pillows with them. One pillow was put on the empress's chair; another on the heir's chair.<<

Quote:
Originally Posted by Russophile View Post
Bear, wasn't Ermakov the one who went around stabbing everybody after they executed them by gunfire? I seem to remember King and Wilson writing that.
According to certain testimony, Ermakov was drunk and laden down with all kinds of things including a bayonet. Some claim he had gone beserk for a short time during the killings.

Ermakov was the one who claimed he executed Nicholas II and when he was asked to speak in front of the incoming communist cadets after the revolution, he continued to claim he had executed Nicholas II. In Radzinsky's book THE LAST TSAR, Radzinsky had an interview with Ermakov's son who continued to claim his father was the one who had executed Nicholas II.

According to Russian historians, they give the credit to Yurovsky as the one who executed Nicholas II.
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  #2214  
Old 11-15-2008, 09:42 AM
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With regards to the statements AA made about the Romanovs in the early 1920's. AA read alot during her time in Dalldorf. Therefore she was able to read German very well and thus she could read any of the many newspaper/magazine accounts of the Romanovs. The nurse Chemnitz ne Malinovski even brought her books from outside the Dalldorf library to read. AA did admit to one of her Doctors in the mid/late 1920's that while at Dalldorf she had a newspaper/magazine which detailed the murder of the Imperial family. Gilliard insisted this was the Illustrated Newspaper having three of the Duchesses on the front with the tag line (to the effect) "Did one of these Survive?" Within it it detailed the murder, including photographs of the murder room (Enlarged to show the wallpaper of the room. AA would impress some later by recounting the wallpaper of the room). I have not heard a single quote from AA during her Dalldorf internment that was not readily accessible to the general public. Only later did AA make statements which couldn't be found in books, but not during these initial years. Yet, in later years while with the Kleists and the Schwabes she had access to many more items books and especially photographs and Russian emigres.
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Old 11-15-2008, 02:22 PM
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I have lost my train of thought due to all the interruptions around me.

Let me see if I can pull some of those thoughts back. Forgive me but I'll need to repeat what nurse Malinovsky told us:

p. 12 Kurth's ANASTASIA, THE RIDDLE OF ANNA ANDERSON:

>>It was then in the autumn of 1921 (1), that Fraeulin Unbekannt declared outright that she was Her Imperial Highness the Grand Duchess Anastasia Nicolaievna. In the conversation that followed, as Nurse Malinovsky remembered it...(2) She spoke of her sisters and the jewels they had sewn into their clothes in Siberia, of the last night in Ekaterinburg, (3) when "a lady-in-waiting ran about with a cushion in her hands, hiding her face it and screaming", and (4) of "the leader of the murderers of the tsar, (who) who went straight up to her father and his pistole....mocking him and with it and shooting at him."

(1) Approximate date given was "autumn of 1921", so this is after the publication of Telberg/Wilton's book in London and USA.

(2) So we know the part about the jewels sewn into "their clothes" was in Telberg/Wilton's book. Another place is p. 335:
>>They also spoke of the "valuables sown in their clothes.<<

(3) Was the part about Demidovna running around with her "cushion"/ "little pillow" in Telberg/Wilton's book? Telberg/Wilton's book tells us, she did have a "pillow", and >>p. 187 THE LAST DAYS OF THE ROMANOVS:
"...Demidova was tossing herself about, but was dispatched by by bayonets."<< p. 310 in section written by Wilton:
>> <<the maid-servant lived the longest. Perhaps the pillows were in the way. She was not touched by the first volley, and ran about screaming till some of the "Letts," seizing their rifles, bayoneted her to death.<<

(4) And was the information about Yurovsky executing and mocking the Tsar in their book? Didn't find this in Medvedeff's testimony since he was claiming he didn't see the actual shooting. The others weren't there. I'll have to go and search Wilton's section.

Unless there is another interuption, I'll be right back.

Didn't find anything about Yurovsky mocking the tsar on p. 308 or anyt other page. Did I miss it?

So, the question is: Did someone introduce AA to Telberg and Wilton's book? We don't know.



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  #2216  
Old 11-15-2008, 03:49 PM
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Originally Posted by tsarskoe View Post
With regards to the statements AA made about the Romanovs in the early 1920's. AA read alot during her time in Dalldorf. Therefore she was able to read German very well and thus she could read any of the many newspaper/magazine accounts of the Romanovs. The nurse Chemnitz ne Malinovski even brought her books from outside the Dalldorf library to read. AA did admit to one of her Doctors in the mid/late 1920's that while at Dalldorf she had a newspaper/magazine which detailed the murder of the Imperial family. Gilliard insisted this was the Illustrated Newspaper having three of the Duchesses on the front with the tag line (to the effect) "Did one of these Survive?" Within it it detailed the murder, including photographs of the murder room (Enlarged to show the wallpaper of the room. AA would impress some later by recounting the wallpaper of the room). I have not heard a single quote from AA during her Dalldorf internment that was not readily accessible to the general public. Only later did AA make statements which couldn't be found in books, but not during these initial years. Yet, in later years while with the Kleists and the Schwabes she had access to many more items books and especially photographs and Russian emigres.
If AA read the book, then she was able to read either English or French.

>>... THE LAST DAYS OF THE ROMANOVS by Robert Wilton and Telberg. I have a copy. The first edition was published in 1920 in London and New York. French edition was published in Paris in 1921 and later in Russian in 1923.<<
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  #2217  
Old 11-15-2008, 05:06 PM
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Many of the details of the Romanov murders were reproduced in newspapers such as the Berlin Illustrated and other tabloids in the early 1920's. We know details about the murder and photographs of the semi basement room were published in the October 23rd 1921 edition of the Berlin Illustrated (The cover has the now famous photograph of the ailing Marie, Anastasia and Tatiana taken during their measles outbreak. This was a family photograph and not a postcard or formal portrait. Personal photographs were already starting to show up in publications). According to the nurse Chemitz's testimony from the German trials she stated that she and the other nurses knew about the Romanov murders since the all newspapers were "full" of stories regarding the murder. So again it can be of no surprise that AA knew basic information about the Romanovs at this time.

[Interestingly Chemnitz also said that she and another nurse who testified at the trials were not native German speakers and did not speak German "perfectly" at the time they worked on the floor with AA. In fact she believed that AA spoke better German than herself.]
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Old 11-15-2008, 07:50 PM
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Many of the details of the Romanov murders were reproduced in newspapers such as the Berlin Illustrated and other tabloids in the early 1920's. We know details about the murder and photographs of the semi basement room were published in the October 23rd 1921 edition of the Berlin Illustrated (The cover has the now famous photograph of the ailing Marie, Anastasia and Tatiana taken during their measles outbreak. This was a family photograph and not a postcard or formal portrait. Personal photographs were already starting to show up in publications). According to the nurse Chemitz's testimony from the German trials she stated that she and the other nurses knew about the Romanov murders since the all newspapers were "full" of stories regarding the murder. So again it can be of no surprise that AA knew basic information about the Romanovs at this time.

[Interestingly Chemnitz also said that she and another nurse who testified at the trials were not native German speakers and did not speak German "perfectly" at the time they worked on the floor with AA. In fact she believed that AA spoke better German than herself.]
I have not seen a copy of the Berlin Illustrated published 23 Oct 1921. Anyone have a copy?

Yes, we know the execution of Nicholas II and the family were reported in the news and newspapers. But what were the details? Did they talk about "little pillows" or the jewels sewn in the under garments of the grand duchesses....?

I am not exactly sure what it means that a nurse said AA spoke "better German" than her. This could mean that the nurse was just learning proper German or she spoke Low or Middle German which the German scholars were trying to stamp out in favor of a national language which was High German.... So, this really doesn't tell me very much. To this we need to add this to the investigation: According to some, AA had an accent added to her German, which means it wasn't her first language p. 10 Kurth's ANASTASIA, THE RIDDLE OF ANNA ANDERSON:

>>The nurses at Dalldorf never doubted that Fraeulein Unbekannt was Russian. It wasn't just her "Eastern" accent or the fact that she spoke foreign languages in her sleep. "She spoke Russian like a native," said Erna Bucholz.<<

I think there is a different sound to a Polish accent when compared to a Russian accent. Surly Bucholz, who lived in Russia, knew the difference.

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  #2219  
Old 11-15-2008, 08:02 PM
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She could have spoken Chinese, but her DNA still didn't match. We can argue he said, she said, until the cows come home, it is science that takes away the doubt. Who knows, she might have really believed herself to be whom she portrayed. Lots of unstable people think strange things. In the end result, DNA, is the ultimate judge.
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Old 11-15-2008, 08:10 PM
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http://www.nytimes.com/packages/pdf/topics/romanov.pdf

Example of what was being reported in July of 1918 in the New York Times.


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