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  #61  
Old 01-09-2009, 02:20 AM
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By "female embryo," I was referring to Victoria, not her daughters. In that case, she would indeed be a carrier.

Which three daughters, by the way? Alice, Beatrice, and who else? Louise was childless, Helena had two sons die young of unknown causes (not wildly uncommon in the 19th century), and Victoria's children seem to have escaped the disease.
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  #62  
Old 01-09-2009, 06:04 PM
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Originally Posted by Anna was Franziska View Post
Nevolin's last statement lets us know he is now satisfied with the way things have gone and believes no more work is necessary.

He has stated they have all the information they need, no more investigating or testing will be done. That is Nevolin's final word. It's over.

....and therefore...

There is still no scientific proof... and there will continue to be no scientific proof... of the suspected existence of haemophilia in the Russian Imperial family.

... and so my original point in this discussion remains unchanged.
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  #63  
Old 01-09-2009, 06:20 PM
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But that changes nothing! The facts remain the same: Alexei still died in 1918. Tammet was not Alexei just as Anna Anderson was not Anastasia. Whatever caused Alexei to bleed, hemophilia or not, DID help 'bring down the dynasty' due to the influence of Rasputin on Alexandra. There is no 'third pit.' The faulty gene cannot be tested for due to the small amount of usable specimen. There are separate nuclear DNA profiles for every member of the family, including all four Grand Duchesses, but we'll never know if it was Anastasia or Maria who was missing with Alexei due to the lack of nuclear DNA from the living girls for comparisons. The main thing is, the mystery is solved and we know can prove what happened to the Romanovs. So what's your point, and what does it have to do with 'new information about the 2007 pits'?
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  #64  
Old 01-09-2009, 06:48 PM
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Originally Posted by Elspeth View Post
By "female embryo," I was referring to Victoria, not her daughters. In that case, she would indeed be a carrier.
That is assuming, of course, that the blood disorder was caused by a faulty X-linked gene... which has yet to be proved by any scientific means.

If Victoria and her suspected carrier daughters and grand-daughters were all of the same blood type, which is highly likely, then the blood disease problem could just as easily have been the result of haemolytic anaemia caused by Rh incompatibility between a mother and her foetus. Generally occuring in large families and often characterized by miscarriages and/or stillbirths also experienced by those same mothers, the problem is now almost completely preventable... but it was completely unknown to medical science... and to Royalty watchers... before 1939.

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  #65  
Old 01-09-2009, 07:13 PM
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Originally Posted by Anna was Franziska View Post
The main thing is, the mystery is solved and we know can prove what happened to the Romanovs. So what's your point, and what does it have to do with 'new information about the 2007 pits'?
You still don't get it.

My point is...

The "New Information" should now also provide us with the final solid scientific proof of the long-suspected existence of haemophilia in the Russian Imperial family.

It does not now give us any of that necessary proof ... and... if your contention is correct... then it apparently never will.

JK
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  #66  
Old 01-09-2009, 07:26 PM
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You don't get it. I am saying, no, they can't test for the gene, because there wasn't enough of the sample to do both the DNA and the gene test. I have already posted the scientists' explaination of why such a test was impossible under the circumstances. I am also saying, SO WHAT? They found the bodies. They identified them. That was the goal. So they never got the gene. So they never got a positive ID on the missing girl. This does not mean they are not finished! They have done everything they can. The issue was proving the identity of the family and putting to rest the case of their murders and the 'mystery' of them being missing for years. Oh sure, there are a lot of things it might be fun to find out, but oh well! It's not important. What difference does it make? There is no doubt that Alexei did have a bleeding disease and he did die in 1918. The issue is, the two missing bodies were found in the pit and identified as the two missing children. The case is over.
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  #67  
Old 01-09-2009, 10:44 PM
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Originally Posted by Anna was Franziska View Post
The case is over.
Over or not...

There is no Haemophilia without solid scientific proof.
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  #68  
Old 01-09-2009, 10:57 PM
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Why does it matter? What I can't understand about you is that, for years, you tried to prove Alexei didn't have hemophilia, because the claimant you support didn't have it. So now you say there's no way to prove Alexei had it and that's supposed to be a big deal, but how does it make any difference now since the claimant wasn't Alexei?
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  #69  
Old 01-09-2009, 11:45 PM
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Over or not...

There is no Haemophilia without solid scientific proof.
You're only trying to say that Alexei didn't have hemophilia, so you can have a reason to say that Tammet was Alexei. Tammet never was Alexei.

Anna Vyrubova in a letter she said about Alexei, "The child had a rare disease ... The blood vessels were affected, so that the patient bled at the slightest touch."

There is evidence of Alexei having hemophilia from Gilliard's book Thirteen years at Russian court. Even Nicholas and Alexandra mentions Alexei having a bleeding disease.

September 8, 1904, Nicholas wrote in his diary: "Alix and I were very worried because little Alexei started bleeding from the navel, and it continued on and off until evening!We had to send Korovin and the surgeon Federov...how painful it is to live in such moments of anxiety.


"The Czarevitch was in the schoolroom standing on a chair, when he slipped, and in falling hit his right knee against the corner of some piece of furniture. The next day he could not walk. On the day after the subcutaneous haemmorage had progressed, and the swelling which had formed below the knee rapidly spread down the elg. The skin, which was reatly distended, had hardened under the force of the extravasated blood, which pressed on the nerves of the leg and thus caused shooting pains, which grew worse every hour.
Chapter 3

I then had a long talk with Dr. Derevenko. He told me that the Heir was a prey to haemophilia, a hereditary disease which in certain families is transmitted from generation to generation by the women to their male children. Only males are affected. He told me that the slightest wound might cause the boy's death, for the blood of a bleeder had not the power of coagulating like that of a normal individual. Further, the tissue of the arteries and veins is so frail that any blow or shock may rupture the blood-vessel and bring on a fatal haemorrhage. --- Chapter 3

Such was the terrible disease from which Aleksey Nicolaievich was suffering, such the perpetual menace to his life. A fall, nose-bleeding, a simple cut-things which were a trifle to any other child might prove fatal to him. All that could be done was to watch over him closely day and night, especially in his early years," and by extreme vigilance try to prevent accidents. Hence the fact that at the suggestion of the doctors he had been given two ex-sailors of the Imperial yacht, Derevenko and his assistant Nagorny, as his personal attendants and bodyguard. They looked after him in rotation.

Chapter 3-- p. 37


One morning I found the mother at her son's bedside. He had had a very bad night. Dr. Derevenko was anxious, as the haemorrhage had not been stopped and his temperature was rising. The inflammation had spread further and. the pain was even worse than the day before. The Tsarevitch lay in bed groaning piteously. His head rested on his mother's arm, and his small, deathly white face was unrecognizable. At times the groans ceased and he murmured the one word "Mummy!" in which he expressed all his sufferings and distress. His mother kissed him on the hair, forehead, and eyes, as if the touch of her lips could have relieved his pain and restored some of the life which was leaving him. Think of the tortures of that mother, an impotent witness of her son's martyrdom in those hours of mortal anguish - a mother who knew that she herself was the cause of his sufferings, that she had transmitted to him, the terrible disease against which human science was powerless I now I understood the secret tragedy of her life! How easy it was to reconstruct the stages of that long Calvary.

Aleksey Nicolalevich was the centre of this united family, the focus of all its hopes and affections. His sisters worshipped him and he was his parents' pride and joy. When he was well the palace was, as it were, transformed. Everyone and everything seemed bathed in sunshine. Endowed with a naturally happy disposition, he would have developed quite regularly and successfully had he not been kept back by his infirmity. Each of his crises meant weeks and sometimes months of the closest attention, and when the haemorrhage bad been heavy it was followed by a condition of general anaemia which made a hard work impossible for him, sometimes for a considerable period. Thus the interludes between attacks were all that were available, and, in spite of his quick brain, this made teaching a difficult matter. --- Chapter 6- life at Tsarskoye Selo- My pupils
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  #70  
Old 01-10-2009, 01:09 AM
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All correct, AnastasiaEvidence. And the tsarina's sister Irene had, according to Anna Anderson, two sons who suffered from the same disease.
That Franzisca, she certainly had her information down pat.
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  #71  
Old 01-10-2009, 04:13 AM
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Originally Posted by J Kendrick View Post
That is assuming, of course, that the blood disorder was caused by a faulty X-linked gene... which has yet to be proved by any scientific means.
That is assuming that the evidence, all of which points to haemophilia, actually does point to haemophilia. The lack of actual genetic sequences for these 19th-century individuals doesn't mean that the mutation didn't exist.

Quote:
If Victoria and her suspected carrier daughters and grand-daughters were all of the same blood type, which is highly likely,
Why is it highly likely?

Quote:
then the blood disease problem could just as easily have been the result of haemolytic anaemia caused by Rh incompatibility between a mother and her foetus.
That would explain bleeding in children and young adults? It would explain why none of Alexandra's younger daughters had the disease but her son did, but he survived into adolescence? The patterns here are far more easily explainable by haemophilia.

Quote:
Generally occuring in large families and often characterized by miscarriages and/or stillbirths also experienced by those same mothers, the problem is now almost completely preventable... but it was completely unknown to medical science... and to Royalty watchers... before 1939.
Miscarriages, stillbirths, and infant mortality of many causes were more common back then. Nor does this explain why male children were the affected ones and why several of them survived for many years.

We have a situation that can be explained by the one instance of a spontaneous mutation in Queen Victoria's genetic makeup at the embryonic stage. You prefer to pile on coincidence after coincidence - yes Leopold had haemophilia but it had nothing to do with his mother, despite the fact that bleeding diseases showed up in male children in the Spanish, Russian, and Hessian royal families, which according to you could be explained by yet another disease that depends on a bunch of women all having the same blood type and which doesn't tend to affect eldest children except that in the case of Victoria Eugenie's eldest child it did.

You've heard of Occam's razor, have you?
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  #72  
Old 01-10-2009, 04:31 AM
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Down pat is a very good expression Chat, it is the one that is used when a person has rehearsed over and over again and has become so good at it that it sounds convincing enough to fool gullible people....
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  #73  
Old 01-10-2009, 04:52 AM
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Originally Posted by Elspeth View Post
We have a situation that can be explained by the one instance of a spontaneous mutation in Queen Victoria's genetic makeup at the embryonic stage. You prefer to pile on coincidence after coincidence - yes Leopold had haemophilia but it had nothing to do with his mother, despite the fact that bleeding diseases showed up in male children in the Spanish, Russian, and Hessian royal families, which according to you could be explained by yet another disease that depends on a bunch of women all having the same blood type and which doesn't tend to affect eldest children except that in the case of Victoria Eugenie's eldest child it did.
And Irene's eldest son. And Alice of Albany's eldest son. And Alexandra's eldest son.
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  #74  
Old 01-10-2009, 06:56 AM
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I know it may be nice to confirm if Alexis suffered from hemophilia but as his remains have been identified does it make any difference? We know he died with his family in 1918 so I am not sure why we need to know this unless the DNA test just happened to confirm it as well. Is it not time to let him rest in peace?
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  #75  
Old 01-10-2009, 11:16 AM
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I know it may be nice to confirm if Alexis suffered from hemophilia but as his remains have been identified does it make any difference? We know he died with his family in 1918 so I am not sure why we need to know this unless the DNA test just happened to confirm it as well.
Yes, we already know he suffered from hemophilia according to the many memoirs and letters from the imperial family and the doctors and tutors. It really doesn't make a difference.

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And the tsarina's sister Irene had, according to Anna Anderson, two sons who suffered from the same disease.
Irene's sons Waldemar and Heinrich were both hemophiliacs. Heinrich,I think he died at the age of four from hemophilia when he fell and bruised his head, in 1904.
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  #76  
Old 01-10-2009, 11:17 AM
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Originally Posted by Elspeth View Post

You've heard of Occam's razor, have you?
Ah, yes. The same old argument...

"Entia non sunt multiplicanda praeter necessitatem"... Entities must not be multiplied beyond necessity.

That goes hand in hand with another favourite of the pro-hemophilia crowd... "If you hear hoof beats, think horses, not zebras"... which works just fine if you insist on following that line of reasoning... so long as you're not standing in the middle of the Serengenti.

Have you ever heard of Crabtree's Bludgeon? It states in opposition to Occam: "No set of mutually inconsistent observations can exist for which some human intellect cannot conceive a coherent explanation, however complicated."

There is no evidence that supports the notion that simplicity equals truth.

JK
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  #77  
Old 01-10-2009, 12:10 PM
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Originally Posted by AnastasiaEvidence View Post
Yes, we already know he suffered from hemophilia according to the many memoirs and letters from the imperial family and the doctors and tutors. It really doesn't make a difference.
That's right, thanks for your excellent post with all the quotes from those who knew the family. The doctors especially knew the disease.

Quote:
Irene's sons Waldemar and Heinrich were both hemophiliacs. Heinrich,I think he died at the age of four from hemophilia when he fell and bruised his head, in 1904.
Nobody needs "Anna Anderson" as a source for this info, Chat! It's well documented in history as well as in books by those who knew the family. And don't forget AA actually met Irene, so she would of course know this. I see the recent DNA proof of four separate profiles for the Grand Duchesses has not changed the special realm of reality in which Chat resides, apparently, he still believes AA was AN.

It's also a very good point Elspeth made that it was hemophilia because only boys had it. If it was some other blood disease, girls would get it too, but hemophilia only affects males. All information we have leads to it being hemophilia, so if it walks like a duck, well, you know. Even if the scientists had enough bone powder from the fragments to do the faulty gene test, I seriously doubt that those who don't choose to accept the reality of the results would have believed it anyway.

JK, RH factor is not a lifelong affliction that causes bleeding! I know this, because it has happened in my family (it's not hereditary, other than the mother having negative blood and the father having postive) The first baby is always okay, but second and other following children are affected if the mother doesn't get a RhoGam shot (I had to take this after my first baby because my blood is negative and my husband's is positive and my second baby turned out okay.) I have an aunt whose second baby was born anemic, jaundiced and sickly due to RH factor, but he survived and grew up to be a tall healthy basketball player. The RH factor will affect the baby at birth, and in olden times it often died because no one knew what was wrong or how to treat it, or they were unable to treat it. It almost never happens now due to RhoGam, but like I said about my cousin, if they are born with it in modern times and are treated at birth they survive to live a normal life and are not 'bleeders.' (I have heard some babies born with RH factor who lived suffered mental retardation, but not bleeding disorders) Another reason we know this wasn't the caase with the royals is that it's not random, any other child after the first, male or female, would be affected in some way.(the reason it takes until the second child to act up is because when the first baby is born with positive blood, somehow that goes into the mother's system and her body produces antibodies to attack the positive cells, which in turn harms the next baby she carries with positive blood. The RhoGam shot prevents the production of the antibodies)

JK, I really don't understand what the point is of trying to prove Alexei had a disease other than hemophilia. Now that we know he was not Tammet, your reason for fighting this cause is over.
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  #78  
Old 01-10-2009, 02:28 PM
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Nobody needs "Anna Anderson" as a source for this info, Chat! It's well documented in history as well as in books by those who knew the family. And don't forget AA actually met Irene, so she would of course know this. I see the recent DNA proof of four separate profiles for the Grand Duchesses has not changed the special realm of reality in which Chat resides, apparently, he still believes AA was AN.
Anna Anderson really doesn't have much to go with this discussion. She didn't personally know Alexei well. We are talking about the people who have personally knew Alexei and have books and letters written about Alexei's disease. Anna Anderson doesn not know Alexei.

Quote:
That's right, thanks for your excellent post with all the quotes from those who knew the family. The doctors especially knew the disease.
Yes, the family members and tutors who knew the imperial family well, certiantly said Alexei DID have a bleeding disease and he bleed continuously. The letters and diaries they had explain perfectly well that Alexei suffered from the bleeding disease.The huge scars in the photographs from 1916 in Stavka, prove that Alexei did bleed and bruise himself severely.
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Down pat is a very good expression Chat, it is the one that is used when a person has rehearsed over and over again and has become so good at it that it sounds convincing enough to fool gullible people....
AnnaWasFranziska, definitely explained that well and provided good evidence to prove her point. Perfectly said. There really isn't no need to deny the fact that Alexei did have hemophilia.

Quote:
JK, I really don't understand what the point is of trying to prove Alexei had a disease other than hemophilia. Now that we know he was not Tammet, your reason for fighting this cause is over.
Since Tammet didn't have hemophilia, Kendrick wants to make it seem as if Alexei didn't have hemophilia. So he can have a reason to claim that Tammet was Alexei. Nobody would believe that.There really isn't any point in arguing about the hemophilia gene in the remains.
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  #79  
Old 01-10-2009, 04:22 PM
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Originally Posted by Anna was Franziska View Post
Nobody needs "Anna Anderson" as a source for this info, Chat! It's well documented in history as well as in books by those who knew the family. And don't forget AA actually met Irene, so she would of course know this.
Of course. And you probably know for sure which book Franzisca read before 1925 that contained this information?
As for meeting Irene, I strongly doubt that the princess divulged this kind of information to any stranger she met, be they imposters or not.
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  #80  
Old 01-10-2009, 05:42 PM
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Originally Posted by Anna was Franziska View Post
I really don't understand what the point is of trying to prove Alexei had a disease other than hemophilia.
In case you don't already know, the argument against haemophilia in the Russian Imperial family has been passed and given approval by a full and proper medical peer-review and published in a leading haemotology journal.

Almost five years later, it remains completely unchallenged by experts in the medical field of haemotology to this very day... and is now still completely unchallenged even by the research scientists who claim to have identified the bone fragments uncovered in July 2007.
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