A potential bride for The Grand Duke Georgi

[NGalitzine]

An heir to the throne is required to be born of an Orthodox mother so Georgi's wife would be required to be born or a convert to Rissian Orthodoxy. That was one of the flaws in Marias claims to head the family. Grand Duchess Vladimir did not convert from Lutheran to Russian Orthodoxy until well after the birth of her children.

 

[AristoCat]

Which is why she (Maria) will be determined to ensure that her son is able to have a bride that is fully a member of the Orthodox church well before marriage to ensure a legitimate claim and kid who doesn't have any doubt as to their claim. Either way, anyone who wants to marry Georgi will have to take his mother into consideration, she is certainly formidable and she is going to want to make sure her son has the best for him, but also for her.

 

[branchg]

Georgi cannot marry a female from any of the Russian noble houses. That is out of the question and most definitely not an equal marriage under the Pauline Laws.

He can marry a German, Austrian, French, Greek, etc. princess so long as they convert to Orthodoxy (if not already Orthodox) prior to marriage. Other than that requirement, he is free to marry a wide variety of available royal brides.

The real issue is he is not much of a catch for a royal marriage. There is no money to speak of and the German princesses prefer to marry the princes and dukes they grew up with in Germany.

 

[branchg]

An heir to the throne is required to be born of an Orthodox mother so Georgi's wife would be required to be born or a convert to Rissian Orthodoxy. That was one of the flaws in Marias claims to head the family. Grand Duchess Vladimir did not convert from Lutheran to Russian Orthodoxy until well after the birth of her children.

True, but Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna did convert in 1905 and received a published accolade from Tsar Nicholas II. Her children remained in-line and were always listed as dynasts.

Religious requirements could be waived by the Emperor and were not always a problem. Maria Pavlovna and her issue were far from the throne and she only converted when they were becoming closer to succession due to the illness of the Tsarevitch.

 

[AristoCat]

Well, as for money, anyone can make money and few can really make his lineage. It's impressive no matter how you look at it and how you might see it. Looks like his choices are limited and because of his heritage. I just wonder how on earth he will find anyone. It's not going to be easy and if a nice girl does show an interest, that his mother makes it easy for him. Soudns like he's in an impossible situation.

 

[Marc23]

Georgi cannot marry a female from any of the Russian noble houses. That is out of the question and most definitely not an equal marriage under the Pauline Laws.

He can marry a German, Austrian, French, Greek, etc. princess so long as they convert to Orthodoxy (if not already Orthodox) prior to marriage. Other than that requirement, he is free to marry a wide variety of available royal brides.

The real issue is he is not much of a catch for a royal marriage. There is no money to speak of and the German princesses prefer to marry the princes and dukes they grew up with in Germany.

Very much think like you...If somehow he marries a Galitzine Princess than his mother would have to accept as equal all other brides that came from really old Russian families and have married into the Imperial family since the revolution...and we know that she based her claim upon her ancestry and most pureness of her blood...

 

[Marc23]

Looks like his choices are limited and because of his heritage. I just wonder how on earth he will find anyone. It's not going to be easy and if a nice girl does show an interest, that his mother makes it easy for him. Sounds like he's in an impossible situation.

It sounds to me also but we will see...If he falls in love with the "wrong girl",I don't think he will be getting married as long as his mother is alive!

 

[AristoCat]

Very much think like you...If somehow he marries a Galitzine Princess than his mother would have to accept as equal all other brides that came from really old Russian families and have married into the Imperial family since the revolution...and we know that she based her claim upon her ancestry and most pureness of her blood...

I quite frankly think that Maria needs to be practical and fair and realistic and she needs to let him socialize with the Russian aristoracy at least and let him have some social freedom or he might end up rebelling and marrying the worst that he could end up finding. A Galitzine with dallops of Imperial blood would be better than a foreign royal and someone who would be alienated from the 'main' fmaily and at the same time, undermine Georgi's right to the Throne. There is no guarantee and frankly there is no way that a German princess (after the mess with Alexandra and WWII) would be accepted and Georgi would only end up really, really burned if it ends up with him being raised to marry, only to end up married to some German duck and then end up with even less of a claim that his motehr is pretty much making for him.

A Russian aristocrat with healthy dallops would end up with being better for him in the long run and a lot more attacehd to Russia. Obviously Maria is going ot have to bend at some point and end up letting him marry someone either she knows and might not be sure of, or someone who causes her to have a complete stroke and he ends up bolting into the arms of someone like Sofia, like Carl Philip. That is the last thing she wants.

 

[Daria_S]

...(after the mess with Alexandra and WWII)...

Did you mean WWI?

 

[Ceallach]

Other royal houses such as Austria consider marriages to nobles acceptable and not morgantic. So a daughter of a russian noble and a Austria royal could be acceptable marriage material because they are a member of a foreign royal family. It does not change the fact that Russian royals can only marry foreign royals or else it is morgantic. So his marriage to an Austria royal/galitzine would in no way affect the status of the still morgantic marriages between russian royals and russian nobles. A russian noble is only good enough to marry if they can also be considered a foreign royal. It is the foreign royal part that makes them acceptable.

To change this would cause outcry and be hypicritical since she is the would be tsarina because this rule caused others to be passed over. Georg has to abide by it, but at the same time a foreign girl would be not so acceptable to the Russians and hurt his chances at restoration.

So the best choice is a Russian noble who is also a foreign royal like the Austria royal/Galitzines who also partially grew up in Russia, speak russian, raised russian orthodox, etc. Yet their mom's family is in Belgium where Georgi is and he would have opportunity to meet them at events through mutual friends. Their aunt is the social co-ordinator for the New York Russians and honoury chair of the ball that Princes Dimitri and Nicholas Romanoff, etc put on - so her family is one that can bridge the gap with them.

Is anyone aware of any other Russian nobles/foreign royals?

 

[NGalitzine]

The ladies status comes from her father regardless of her mothers illustrious Austrian ancestry. She remains a Princess Galitzine, Russian aristocrat, and does not meet the standards of the Pauline Law. Other Romanovs have married members of the Galitzine family are those marriages were declared morganatic. There are also Galitzines who descend from Tsar Paul but marriage to their descendents would not be acceptable for Georgi either even though they are of Romanov blood they remain aristocrats.

 

[AristoCat]

Maybe someone should just convince Maria to bend the law in this case or figure something out. If she doesn't, Georgi might go utterly berserk and end up running off with a waitress with six kids by six different men. Then Maria will have even worse problems than the Pauline Laws on her hands.

 

[Ceallach]

The status does not have to come from the father. Many have status from both parents such as the chilldren of Princess Astrid of Belgium and Lorenz of Austria-Este are both Prince/ss of Belgium and Archdukes/duchesses of Austria-Este. Prince Edward of England gave his niece official status in Britain because as the daughter of his sister she did not get a title automatically but was a member of the royal family and could be oficially recognized as royal by him since being a Battenbberg princess was not good enough to marry Alfonso of Spain. Who has a title varies in royal families but does not make someone any less a member of the family. Zara Philips is considered just as much a member of the royal family as Princesses Beatrice and Eugenie. If Zara had been in love with a foreign prince and needed a title to marry him - the Queen would have given her one. It is common practice due to differences in how royal give titles and no one would be saying Zara was not really royal. It is no different than how no one questions Prince Nicholas of Romania as the rightful heir to Romania. If Karina was raised to the status of Princess to marry Georgi too it would not be questionable - she is the sister of the heir to Romania. What matters is the title you have when you marry not when you are born. To make a marriage happen between two people who love each other and which looks good on both families - this has been done and can be done without question.

It does not happen so much anymore since most families do not require the bride/groom-to-be to have a title. When Prince Guillaume of Luxembourg married Sybilla Weiler, her ties to the royal family of Spain and the Princely house of Torlonia was promoted and if she had needed a title to marry him a way would have been found to get her one as an engagement present or something. It is customary to give out titles as engagement or wedding presents in some families anyway. Of course the other option in some cases has been to change sucession for all - such as pauline becomes primogeniture.

If he fell for either a Austrian royal/Galitzine or Karina of Romania because they are members of royal families they can be given titles to make the marriage happen.

It also makes his options a little less limited.

The purely noble galitzines are not members of royal families and have no hope of that. The point being you have to be a member of a royal family - titles can be added later when you are.

 

[Ceallach]

Unlike the Romanovs who married Galitzines, Maria Anna of Austria is still HIRH Maria Anna of Austria. She did not lose status for her marriage to a galitzine since Austria considers marriages to nobles acceptable not morgantic. So she and her children are dynasts of Austria, unlike the Romanovs who married Galitzines who are not dynasts of Russia.

And of course, Georgi of Russia is another good example of someone who inherited a title through his mother not just his father.

 

[fearghas]

The status does not have to come from the father. Many have status from both parents such as the chilldren of Princess Astrid of Belgium and Lorenz of Austria-Este are both Prince/ss of Belgium and Archdukes/duchesses of Austria-Este. Prince Edward of .

If I remember rightly the only reason that Astrids children were made Princes and Princess of Belgium was that both brothers had been unmarried for so long that it looked like that there wasnt going to be an heir in the next generation, so they made provision for Astrids children to be possible heirs. But dont forget that they were already royal through their father. I agree that the galitzine girls would be possibly suitable but Maria may not. If Geirgii married someone who wasn't born a royal then it would give the other Romanovs more amunition. Personally I think the best thing would be if it ever came to a possible reinstatement of the Romanovs would be for the russian people to choose which one they want.

 

[Marc23]

I personally don't think that Maria would,for example,accept a Galitzine Princess because it would lead her to also recognize other members marriages that have been declared morganatic and by that she could lose her claim...

I would love to see him married to a highly titled lady,but we will just have to wait and see...

 

[branchg]

I personally don't think that Maria would,for example,accept a Galitzine Princess because it would lead her to also recognize other members marriages that have been declared morganatic and by that she could lose her claim.

And herein lies the problem. If Maria accepts a marriage to the Russian nobility for her son as equal, then her claim to be the sole remaining dynast is dead.

Many of her father's cousins married Russian princely aristocrats and her father and grandfather declared these marriages morganatic and the issue were ineligible to inherit the throne.

 

[Ceallach]

The Austria royal/galitzines are members of the Austria royal family the same way Peter and Zara Philips are members of the British royal family, and the Belgian-Austrians were members of the Belgian royal family before they got titles. Zara Philips is a higher ranking member of the British royal family than Prince Michael of Kent even if she does not have a title. They may not have Austrian titles but they are still dynasts and in succcession and could be given titles as engagement/wedding presents such as when edward did it for Ena or as part of a change of succession that overall improves the lot of women in a royal family such as in Belgian which is how Astrid's kids got titles cause they were Belgian royals already through their mother. Astrid's husband's status as royal had no part in it, being a noble it still would happen.

Austria (and Belgium) has a different system than Russia where marriage to a noble such as a Galitzine is acceptable not morgantic and you do not lose status. Mariia Anna's mother was also a russian noble and her and her siblings are HIRH and her brother's children are HIRH. Her daughters could be officially raised to HIRH Princess Tatiana/Alexandra/Maria Galitzine, Archduchess of Austria just like their cousins by a Archduke Karl though proclomation or succession change. The reason they presently do not have is not because of the sex of their parent (a situation many royal families have or are changing) and not cause their mother married a noble and lost status for her and her children (such as is the case in Russia).

Maria would not be accepting a marriage with a russian noble but an Austrian royal who also happens to be a russian noble. When you marry someone as a member of a foreign family through one parent the status of the other parent is unimportant and not even part of the discussion such as with past marriages with Russian royals and foreign royals - Maria's father and his sister Kira married foreign royals from Georgia and Prussia whose other parent was noble (German, Polish). Marrying a foreign royals whose other parent is russian nobility would not affect the credibility or status of anyone in the russian royal family.

When someone marries Georgi the emphasize will be on him being Grand Duke of Russia, a title he got from his mother, not Prince of Prussia, the title he got from his father. A mother's status can outway the fathers. If he married an Austrian royal/Galitzine it would all about them being an Austrian royal.

 

[NGalitzine]

He would still be marrying a Russian noble, and thus not an equal. The Galitzine family, while terribly distinguished and historic, are aristocrats. They are not HIH, HRH, HSH or even HH. They are not in the first part of the Gotha and are not a mediatized family either.
As for a mothers status outweighing the father that only counts if the mother is the monarch or in this case the Pretender. Otherwise your title comes from your father.
While I personally believe marriage between Georgi and a member of a historic Russian princely family might be a good thing, it does violate the Pauline Laws that Maria, her father and grandfather have been so keen to enforce on other Romanovs even while living in exile. They backed themselves into a corner and now might not be able to get out.

 

[Stefan]

He would still be marrying a Russian noble, and thus not an equal. The Galitzine family, while terribly distinguished and historic, are aristocrats. They are not HIH, HRH, HSH or even HH. They are not in the first part of the Gotha and are not a mediatized family either.
As for a mothers status outweighing the father that only counts if the mother is the monarch or in this case the Pretender. Otherwise your title comes from your father.
While I personally believe marriage between Georgi and a member of a historic Russian princely family might be a good thing, it does violate the Pauline Laws that Maria, her father and grandfather have been so keen to enforce on other Romanovs even while living in exile. They backed themselves into a corner and now might not be able to get out.

But on the other Hand the other marriages to russian aristocrats where long ago and it was not Maria but her father and grandfather who declared them not equal. So itis not ;aria's vault. And even the Habsburgs approve now marriages as equal who where where morgantic 50 years ago.

 

[NGalitzine]

True, but it would still open up old wounds and questions about Marias own disputed claims to headship. If he cannot find the perfect princess bride maybe it would be best to acknowledge the other Romanovs in advance of his selecting a non-equal marriage partner.

 

[Ceallach]

Where does it say that the mother's title can only outway the father's if they are monarch? Princess Astrid's children are first and foremost called Prince/ss of Belgium and she is not the heir. They have an HRH from mom and a HIRH from dad. Many inherit titles from both parents especially since many have changed succession laws.

As far as I know only Russia and Brazil only require marriage to another royal.

The Brazilians as a result have the same issue - elder son disinherited for marrying russian noble but disputed it and his heir still claims throne. Younger son married Bavarian princess made heir and his son is married to Princess of Ligne which is meditized and acceptable. The first family says a Princess of Ligne should be not be ok, while Russian noble is not. Yet it is, cause Russian noble were never mediatized. No matter who Georgi marries there will be someone making an issue of it but it will not mean it is not a credible match - Maria determines that.

Sorry not Russian czech noble.

 

[NGalitzine]

Where does it say that the mother's title can only outway the father's if they are monarch? Princess Astrid's children are first and foremost called Prince/ss of Belgium and she is not the heir. They have an HRH from mom and a HIRH from dad. Many inherit titles from both parents especially since many have changed succession laws.

The lady you are promoting is a Princess Galitzine, not HIH Archduchess of Austria.

 

[AristoCat]

I still think that even if she isn't 'royalty' in the usual sense, a princess is still a princess and that things should work better that way. Is Georgi supposed to just suddenly end up marrying a foreign princess, leaving his children with next to no Russian blood, but sitting on the Imperial Throne?

 

[NGalitzine]

^^^
That pretty much how it works. The princely noble families of Russia are I suppose more akin to a British duke in the sense that they are the top end of the nobility in the former Russian Empire but were not royalty. A princess is in this case not the same as a princess from a reigning or a mediatised house. It also explains why most of the reigning European royal families are of largely German blood lines because there were so many petty German courts who could supply brides who were of suitable birth and also willing to change religions if need be. Today the only way "national bloodlines" are being brought back into the reigning dynasties is because some heirs (UK, Norway, Sweden,Spain are examples) have chosen to marry citizens of their own nations.

 

[MAfan]

Unlike the Romanovs who married Galitzines, Maria Anna of Austria is still HIRH Maria Anna of Austria. She did not lose status for her marriage to a galitzine since Austria considers marriages to nobles acceptable not morgantic. So she and her children are dynasts of Austria, unlike the Romanovs who married Galitzines who are not dynasts of Russia.

The Austria royal/galitzines are members of the Austria royal family the same way Peter and Zara Philips are members of the British royal family, and the Belgian-Austrians were members of the Belgian royal family before they got titles.

Austria (and Belgium) has a different system than Russia where marriage to a noble such as a Galitzine is acceptable not morgantic and you do not lose status. Mariia Anna's mother was also a russian noble and her and her siblings are HIRH and her brother's children are HIRH. Her daughters could be officially raised to HIRH Princess Tatiana/Alexandra/Maria Galitzine, Archduchess of Austria just like their cousins by a Archduke Karl though proclomation or succession change. The reason they presently do not have is not because of the sex of their parent (a situation many royal families have or are changing) and not cause their mother married a noble and lost status for her and her children (such as is the case in Russia).

The four Galitzine sisters are not members nor dynasts of the Imperial House of Austria. Their mother was born an Archduchess of Austria, they are related to the Austrian Imperial Family, but they aren't members of that family. (In the same way, Peter and Zara Phillips are indeed the grandchildren of the British Sovereign and children of the Princess Royal, but they aren't members of the British Royal Family.)
The only way they have for becoming Imperial and Royal Highnesses and Archduchesses of Austria (apart from marrying and Archduke) is that all the male members and several female members of the Imperial Family die, so that Maria Anna remains as the nearest member of the Family to Archduke Karl, then she becomes Head of the Imperial House and her children are raised to Imperial and Royal Highnesses and Archdukes of Austria.
It is highly unlikely (and imo totally out of the question) that Archduke Karl raises the descendants of Archduchesses to the rank of Archdukes/Archduchesses.
And however, they would still remain Princesses Galitzine, so part of the problem would still remain.

 

[branchg]

I still think that even if she isn't 'royalty' in the usual sense, a princess is still a princess and that things should work better that way. Is Georgi supposed to just suddenly end up marrying a foreign princess, leaving his children with next to no Russian blood, but sitting on the Imperial Throne?

Well, traditionally, that's what most of the royal dynasties of Europe did for centuries. They were always forbidden to marry a commoner or a subject and had to marry equally, which usually meant finding a German princess since there were so many kingdoms, duchies, grand duchies, etc. with eligible brides.

As far as Russian blood goes, Georgi and his mother have almost no Russian blood in their veins. Like most royals, they are primarily German in bloodline.

 

[Ceallach]

My point being that they could get a title without alot of people dying because it has happened before through changes to succession or like Ena of Battenberg - having one person given a title to make a marriage happen. You can do this to a relative and it is a legitimate thing to do. It may seem far fetched, but it may take something like that happening in order for Georgi to find a royal bride.

The only way he can marry a royal in the near future with russian blood is if either the Karl of Austria or Michael of Romania raise the staus of the Galitzines or Karina; get someone with Russian blood to convert such as Aglae of Baden or Sophie of Holstein; marry his second cousin Ines of Georgia or convince Princess Theodora to give up acting and marry him cause as a far as I can tell those 2 are the only ones over 20 of those with and without royal blood who presently would not either have to convert to Orthodox (Georgian/Greek to Russian not so big a deal) or have their family raise their rank. Otherwise he needs to wait for the teenage Eastern princesses to grow up and hope for the best: Maria of Serbia, or Maria-Olimpia of Grecce with russian blood, or Mafalda and Olimpia of Bulgaria who are without russian blood.

This is why russia has all the morgantic marriages; and those that aren't seem more like business deals. Not alot of choice.

Cause without someone making a change - as things stand now - the only girls he can marry are Ines and Theodora.

http://www.theroyalforums.com/forum...es-posing-for-a-bridal-photo-shoot-10028.html

Queen Elisabeth and Philip are second cousins, as are Aimone and Olga of Aosta, and Carl Christian and Marie Astrid (Luxembourg) of Austria. Also a common thing of the past.
If they are ok with it - then HRH Ines of Bagration is the most likely bride and she should have some russian in her ancestry, but no german, but her grandmother was a Bavarian/Spanish royal too.

obviously the bavarian is german, i meant to say the Georgian part would have no german.

 

[NGalitzine]

A lot of German princesses would likely have a Russian Grand Duchess lurking somewhere in their family tree. Russian ancestry is not the requirement,however nice that may be, the requirement is appropriate birth rank. A Bagration would reopen questions of their suitability since they were merged into the Russian aristocracy and many people dispute whether Leonida was of equal rank when she married into the Imperial Family. She did of course have the advantage of having some money via her first husband.

 

[Ceallach]

But are the Germans so willing nowadays to become Orthodox?