A potential bride for The Grand Duke Georgi

[Marc23]

it'll have to be a princess that is an undisputed princess

I think that he could also marry a princess or even a countess,as long as she is from mediatized family,just in order to be equal!

Remember the writings from Prince Nicholas Romanoff where he wrote that one Countess von Harrach could be considered equal,unlike one Princess Obolensky!

Here is a quote:

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][SIZE=-1]"Russia, with its very Germanic notion of dynastic propriety, found itself accepting all the Almanach de Gotha rulings.

And so if some unfortunate Russian Grand Duke wanted to marry a Princess Obolensky, descendant of the Grand Dukes of Kiev, who reigned in Russia, at the time his Romanov ancestors were probably still lurking in the woods, draped in pelts or wading through the marshes of East Prussia or Pomerania, he would have had to change his plans.

That marriage would have been impossible, but an Austrian lady, say a daughter of an Illustrious Highness, Count von Harrach zu Rohrau und Thannhausen, lord of the county of Rohrau, Freiherr zu Prugg und Pürrhenstein, lord of Starkenbach, Jilenice, Sadowa & Storckow, would have been acceptable !"[/SIZE][/FONT]

 

[jonc93]

karina is not royal. She was not raised to the rank of a princess.

I never said she was, I said she's the daughter of a Princess, granddaughter of a King and sister of the future head of the Royal house. She's probably the closest he will get to a royal, and if they do pursue a relationship King Michael could very easily elevate her to a Royal Highness with the title of Princess, as he did to her brother.

 

[COUNTESS]

Look, he is a nice young man. I hope he finds someone for whom her cares and who cares for him. He is not going to be Tsar or anything close. Let him live his real life and not a fantasy concieved by his mother.

 

[NotAPretender]

Look, he is a nice young man. I hope he finds someone for whom her cares and who cares for him. He is not going to be Tsar or anything close. Let him live his real life and not a fantasy concieved by his mother.

Up to and including his choice of life partner - bride to his groom, or double-groom.

 

[HRHHermione]

Up to and including his choice of life partner - bride to his groom, or double-groom.

Absolutely!

 

[Marc23]

Look, he is a nice young man. I hope he finds someone for whom her cares and who cares for him. He is not going to be Tsar or anything close. Let him live his real life and not a fantasy concieved by his mother.

Imo,it's not just a matter of fantasy...better position,even as a claimant or Head of the family brings some kind of more attention in media,you tend to be more known and something like "more important" because of people knowing who and what you are,or represent,which can open many doors for you which could be closed if you were in different situation...In simple words-if you have a good propaganda it can bring more money or a position which you can use for making money

 

[branchg]

I think that he could also marry a princess or even a countess,as long as she is from mediatized family,just in order to be equal!

The Pauline Laws require a dynast to marry a person of "corresponding rank" from a royal or reigning house. That rules out an Illustrious Highness and Countess from a mediatized house because that person does not hold corresponding rank to an Imperial Highness and Grand Duke of Russia.

Georgi would have to marry a Princess from a former reigning house or grand duchy. That's it. If Maria changes the Laws to allow an unequal marriage for her son, then her entire claim to be the only remaining dynast in the family will crumble.

 

[Ceallach]

It does not matter what title you have when you are born, just when you get married. King Edward VII raised his niece Ena of Battenberg to royal princess in order to marry King Alfonso XIII of Spain. King Michael could elevate Karina, as could any other Monarch/would-be Monarch raise up a girl who was a member of that royal family. They may have to change succession laws regarding women, or morgantic marriages to do so; or even raise up others such as Karina's cousins. But many families are doing those things anyway.

What is more important is being part of a royal family cause titles vary generally from family to family and can be changed - eveyone is a princess in some families, others only children of males, while others such as the British have members who lack titles. Still to make a royal match, especially one that is desired by the couple, titles have been changed to make them a corresponding rank - it has been done and can be done.

 

[AristoCat]

I think that he could also marry a princess or even a countess,as long as she is from mediatized family,just in order to be equal!

Remember the writings from Prince Nicholas Romanoff where he wrote that one Countess von Harrach could be considered equal,unlike one Princess Obolensky!

Here is a quote:

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][SIZE=-1]"Russia, with its very Germanic notion of dynastic propriety, found itself accepting all the Almanach de Gotha rulings.[/SIZE][/FONT]

[SIZE=-1][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]And so if some unfortunate Russian Grand Duke wanted to marry a Princess Obolensky, descendant of the Grand Dukes of Kiev, who reigned in Russia, at the time his Romanov ancestors were probably still lurking in the woods, draped in pelts or wading through the marshes of East Prussia or Pomerania, he would have had to change his plans. [/FONT][/SIZE]

[SIZE=-1][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]That marriage would have been impossible, but an Austrian lady, say a daughter of an Illustrious Highness, Count von Harrach zu Rohrau und Thannhausen, lord of the county of Rohrau, Freiherr zu Prugg und Pürrhenstein, lord of Starkenbach, Jilenice, Sadowa & Storckow, would have been acceptable !"[/FONT][/SIZE]

I think Nicholas is right on this; a Princess Obolensky is in fact actually more Russian than a Romanov, would for some reason not be considered good enough, despite being from a family that was ruling while the Romanovs were considered nobodies? Prince Nicholas is accurate in a lot of things and I think that while a lot of the Russian nobility might be considered 'commoners,' I am of the view that the Russian nobility has to be the only nobility (that I know of right now) that has the title "Princess" among it's lower nobility below a Grand Duke and I personally think that Maria should unbend and encourage her son to get to know the Romanov side of the family and then end up hopefully having something come of that. An alliance with the 'other side' would end the dispute and inject some much needed Russian lineage into the kids he would have and if his mother wants a restoration so badly, well, quite frankly her son must marry someone with Russian lineage.

If he marries someone with German, or Prussian, or Greek, or any other foreign lineage, it will end up looking like past matches, where the Russian Tsars diluted their Russian lineage to a hundredth of real Russian blood and ended up making German and Prussian and Danish blood the dominant strain and I wonder if in time the Russian aspect of their lineage would have in fact been obliterated from all the marriages with German and Danish blood instead of any Russian at all. A Russian bride would in fact anchor him to Russia, anchor him to the people, and also make sure that the 'other side' is placated, which would be diplomatic. I am sure that a "HIH Princess Obolensky" would be better than trying for a foreign match and "Princess Obolensky" would still be a princess in her own right with her own "HIH" title. Maria should be as diplomatic as she can be and make some sort of sincere overture if she wants her son to be accepted as head of house.

Right now the other Romanovs are coalescing with Rostislav as their Head of House (of the Romanov Family Association) and I wonder if Rostislav's sister Alexandra would be a good match for him. Apparently she's a few years younger than Georgi and it would be brilliant from a social standpoint and eliminate the family rivalry in one fell swoop. If Georgi could be brought around to it, then it would end up ending a lot of bickering and add some balance to the whole situation.

 

[NGalitzine]

While I agree in principle that married to a Russian aristocrat would be a good thing, an Obolensky or a Galitzine or a Troubetskoy would not meet the Pauline Rules. Neither would marriage into another branch of the Romanov family because Maria says they are all morganauts due to their own parents or grandparents marriages (many of whom actually married Russian aristocrats) and not members of the Imperial Family. They really have backed themselves into a corner where the only option is to find some nice German princess who is willing to convert to Orthodoxy before giving birth to the next heir.

 

[Marc23]

The Pauline Laws require a dynast to marry a person of "corresponding rank" from a royal or reigning house. That rules out an Illustrious Highness and Countess from a mediatized house because that person does not hold corresponding rank to an Imperial Highness and Grand Duke of Russia.

Georgi would have to marry a Princess from a former reigning house or grand duchy. That's it. If Maria changes the Laws to allow an unequal marriage for her son, then her entire claim to be the only remaining dynast in the family will crumble.

Thank you for your answer...I am just puzzled why than Prince Nicholas states on his web site that a daughter of Illustrious Highness is considered equal,unlike some domestic Princess of real Russian blood?

Also,when he married GD Maria,Duke of Leuchtenberg did not fit in any of those two categories,he was neither from a reigning,nor from a mediatized family in male line and his marriage was yet considered equal just because the Emperor said "yes,he is good enough"...despite Pauline laws!

There is also a marriage between other Maria and Prince von Leiningen which was,as far as I know,treated equal...

 

[Marc23]

If he marries someone with German, or Prussian, or Greek, or any other foreign lineage, it will end up looking like past matches, where the Russian Tsars diluted their Russian lineage to a hundredth of real Russian blood and ended up making German and Prussian and Danish blood the dominant strain and I wonder if in time the Russian aspect of their lineage would have in fact been obliterated from all the marriages with German and Danish blood instead of any Russian at all. A Russian bride would in fact anchor him to Russia, anchor him to the people, and also make sure that the 'other side' is placated, which would be diplomatic. I am sure that a "HIH Princess Obolensky" would be better than trying for a foreign match and "Princess Obolensky" would still be a princess in her own right with her own "HIH" title. Maria should be as diplomatic as she can be and make some sort of sincere overture if she wants her son to be accepted as head of house.

The last Emperor Nicholas II had only 1/256 of real Russian blood.It was mainly German as they were Holstein-Gottorps in male line and there is no real Greek and Danish blood as Greece and Denmark were ruled also by German Schleswig-Holstein dynasty.So it was German blood on Danish and Greek thrones!

Just like Prince Charles is almost 3/4 of German ancestry(with a dash of Hungarian due to Queen Mary),despite him being British and his family ruling in Britain for centuries now...

 

[AristoCat]

While I agree in principle that married to a Russian aristocrat would be a good thing, an Obolensky or a Galitzine or a Troubetskoy would not meet the Pauline Rules. Neither would marriage into another branch of the Romanov family because Maria says they are all morganauts due to their own parents or grandparents marriages (many of whom actually married Russian aristocrats) and not members of the Imperial Family. They really have backed themselves into a corner where the only option is to find some nice German princess who is willing to convert to Orthodoxy before giving birth to the next heir.

I'm glad you have seen the merit of my argument. The thing with the recent Pauline laws as they have been practiced, is that they have eliminated families that have been perfectly royal, such as the Obolensky family that you have mentioned (who were reigning while the Romanovs were nobodies) and to be frank, I think that the Imperial Family has so far been sensible in regards to marrying the Russian aristocracy. After the Revolution there was no point in adhering to dynastic laws since there was technically no dyansty and no point in marrying foreign royalty and sacrificing themselves if there was no point to it. It shows that the Russian RF prefers to stick with their domestic aristocrats rather than marry foreign royalty if they don't have to. Marrying according to the Pauline Laws didn't work out for Maria and the last thing that Georgi needs is to marry a foreign bride that will dilute his Russian lineage even further. If there are princesses in the Romanov Family and aristocracy with the title and nimbus "HIH" then it should be just fine. Nicholas II as you mentioned was only one hundredth of a drop of Russian while the rest was German and Danish and I don't see the point in marrying a foreign bride since the foreign bride will just distance himself further. This isn't the times when a Tsar or the Heir could just marry a foreign wife and get away with it, he has to anchor himself to Russia as much as possible. A princess Obolensky or someone of similar ancient lineage would in fact unite two old bloodlines and also unite the Romanovs in general.

I did have the thought that Georgi could marry Alexandra, the sister of Rostislav and they could end up uniting the tow warring factions in a lovely dynastic union and because Alexandra would technically be a princess, it should be good enough, more than good enough, for Maria and would put an end to the squabbling and the constant arguing. Both families would be united, both families would have no more reason to argue, and surely Alexandra would be royal enough. Maria's problem is that she has backed herself into a corner and made her son public property, which is unwise since the other Romanovs have smartly stayed out of the public eye and have smartly decided to marry among themsevles and avoid becomign a regular feature on the tabloid magazines. Georgi is so exposed that I do not think that he is going ot attract anyone who is both royal and wants a quiet, genteel life. By making her requirements so public and so much more insistent, she is making it difficult for her son to really meet women who would be good for him.

 

[Ceallach]

There are no HIH in the rest of the Romanovs since they lost dynast status due to morgantic marriages. That is why Maria is the heir and to change that undermines her credibility - it will not happen. Unlike the Germans, Belgians, etc. the Russian princely houses are not mediatized and because of that - while it makes no sense - marrying a Leiningen is equal, marrying an Obolensky is not.

I said before that it is better for his chances of returning the monarchy to marry a Russian but in order to do that he must marry a Russian noble who is also a Foreign royal such as the daughters of Prince Peter Galitzine and Archduchess Maria Anna of Austria. They were partially raised in Russia, would speak Russian, 3/4 of their grandparents are Russian nobles, they have close ties to the Russian nobility assocations, and you can see in my previous post a picture of Alexandra also attending mass at a Russian Orthodox Church. #267

The only issue with them is as daughters of an Austria female they are not HIH Archduchesses of Austria like their cousins who are daughters of men. Austria has made other changes to succession and if it was to follow close allies Belgium and Luxembourg and get rid of Pauline in favour of primogeniture - they could gain that status like Belgium elevatated Astrid's children. Since their monarch Karl has 1 son and 2 daughters it could be beneficial to his own family to do it too.

It would also please the Russian nobles and also create the link you want to Rostislav and Alexandra since their grandma was a Galitzine too and they are big champions of the Galitzines so they can't fault marrying a Galitzine. Austria elevating their status is something that is acceptable practice too.

There also could be other russian nobles married into foreign royal families that would good matches too. That is the only way you can get him to marry a russian noble/royal. The other option is someone with Russian royal blood such as Prince Nicholas of Romania's sister Karina - who would also need elevating.

 

[AristoCat]

I said before that it is better for his chances of returning the monarchy to marry a Russian but in order to do that he must marry a Russian noble who is also a Foreign royal such as the daughters of Prince Peter Galitzine and Archduchess Maria Anna of Austria. They were partially raised in Russia, would speak Russian, 3/4 of their grandparents are Russian nobles, they have close ties to the Russian nobility assocations, and you can see in my previous post a picture of Alexandra also attending mass at a Russian Orthodox Church. #267

That would actually be a perfect match and it's a pity that Maria can't just unbend and then end up letting her son marry someone from the Russian aristocracy and be done with it.

There are no HIH in the rest of the Romanovs since they lost dynast status due to morgantic marriages.

Well, the rest of the Romanovs didn't presume that there would ever end up being the collapse of Communism that happened. No one anticipated that it would happen so quickly and then that so much would happen. It's just as well and frankly I don't see how on earth or why the Romanovs should have continued to live as if they were a reigning RF. They werne't and found good spouses among the aristocracy and have managed to keep an impressively low profile.

 

[Ceallach]

She does not have to unbend the rules for him if the noble is also a foreign royal like the Austrian Galitzines. The only issue is corresponding rank since they are not HRH, HIRH, or HIH just HH probably as russian princesses and some consider that is needed to be corresponding rank and others say princess is good enough. Archdule Karl could raise the status like King Edward of Britain did for his niece Ena of Battenberg to marry Alfonso of Spain, or change to primogeniture and raise a bunch in the family in the process. The only thing Maria might need to unbend is if Karl will not do that or she does not want to even bother with Karl, is to say a princess who is also a member of a royal family is good enough you don't need the Royal or Imperial to be corresponding rank - it is good enough for others and good enough for us. That way they are acceptable as they are since they meet all the other variables and then some - 3/4 russian noble, russian noble association, russian name, russian church, speak russian, raised partially in russian, etc.

 

[AristoCat]

This is such a fascinating debate. I mean, it was never this complicated with Prince William and Harry and any of hte other princes. Georgi supposedly said that he wanted to follow tradition and it's almost fun how we have to discuss all this fascinating legalese.

 

[Marc23]

Georgi supposedly said that he wanted to follow tradition and it's almost fun how we have to discuss all this fascinating legalese.

Well,look at David Bagration(from the most senior branch)...he followed the tradition by marrying Princess Anna Bagration(daughter of the nearest male line descendant of the Kings of Georgia) and now their son has every chance to become one day the Head of the whole Bagration family.

 

[AristoCat]

Right, but with Georgi it is certainly more complicated and I admire Georgi for saying right out he wanted to marry a titled young woman instead of a commoner.

 

[Marc23]

It would be interesting if he finds one...I would love that,but think that it's highly unlikely...

Although,his cousin Georg Friedrich succeeded and it was joy to watch,as it was a love match...

 

[AristoCat]

It is refreshing to see a love match between two royals and I do think that whoever he does marry will be one very lucky young lady because he seems like a genuinely nice guy. If he wanted eh could find ways easily to go out and get into trouble, but chooses not to and instead stays within the range he's comfortable and familiar with. I think he will do the same as his cousin, marry someone titled, and things will go fine, especially if his mother approves. Royalty can marry royalty and have it be a love match. If his mother approves, all the better, eh?

Does anyone have any 'visions' as to who he might marry. It's done on some of the gossip forums for Prince Harry and I thought it would be fun here. I definately see him with someone titled, I know that much.

 

[Ultramare]

Well, everybody was speaking so about his cousin HRH Georg Friederich von Hohenzollern. But...

 

[Benjamin]

Furthermore, there had been rumours about Georg Friedrich and Sophie for years, whereas George has never been linked to anyone.

 

[Marc23]

Does anyone have any 'visions' as to who he might marry.

I don't have "visions" unfortunately because all this sound unlikely at the moment,but will state a few who would fit into the category:


Princess Maria of Yugoslavia(born in 1993),she is an Orthodox QVD Princess,descendant of Russian Imperial family in several ways and a grand-daughter of Prince Philipp's niece Princess Margaretha von Baden...

Princess Irina of Prussia(born in 1988),I think Lutheran,QVD and a descendant of Russian Imperial family...

Princess Theodora of Greece(born in 1983),Orthodox and QVD,a descendant of Russian Imperial family...

Princess Madeleine of Sweden(born in 1982),Lutheran,QVD and also a descendant of Russian Imperial family...

Princess Aglae of Baden(born in 1983),don't know her religion,she is a grand-daughter of Prince Philipp's sister Theodora,QVD and a descendant of Russian Imperial family...

Princess Sophie von Schleswig-Holstein(born in 1983),Protestant,QVD and descendant of Russian Imperial family...


Any more suggestions?

 

[AristoCat]

I meant psychic visions. On other royal forums we had a ball predicting the traits of who Prince William would marry. It was a lot of fun and I thought that since we have this thread, we might do it here.

 

[Ceallach]

Psychic Prediction - I vote for a girl with a Belgium connection.

I don't think meeting girls at Royal weddings or other events with mama maria as wingman will be the way he finds a girl. When is the last time a royal actually married someone they started a romance with at a royal wedding? I do not think he is that close to his 2nd cousins form Prussia and Leiningen and may only see them with Mama - so anyone they would introduce him to would involve mama.

He is in Belgium or Russia most of the time and he's been pictured hanging with HGD Guillaume Luxembourg, who likes to socialize in Belgium. Jean-Christophe the Bonaparte heir has also been hanging out there and is linked to one of the Austrian royals -Countess Olympia von und zu Arco-Zinneberg. Belgium has many events for royals/nobles to socialize and they have a good record of making noble/royal matches. The question is who is not Catholic or willing to give it up in that social circle. He may also not introduce a girl to mama until it is serious - so he could have someone.

I like the Galitzines - dad Russian prince, mother Austrian Archduchess whose family is in Belgium, raised in Luxembourg and Russia in Catholic/Russian Orthodox (have choice to pick either as adults), 3rd cousins to Guillaume (their mom is his siser's godmother too). One of the pictures circulating of Guillaume's rumoured love Stephanie is from their sister Xenia's wedding in Russia. The only issue is whether corresponding rank is princess or HRH/HIH - which requires an upgrade.

Princess Tatiana Galitzine (84)
Princess Alexandra Galitzine (86)
Princess Maria Galitzine (88)

Other girls you may meet at Belgium events

Princess Maria Laura of Belgium, Archduchess of Austria-Este (88)
Archduchess Eleonore Austria (94)
Archduchess Gabriella Austria (94)
Archduchess Priscilla Austria (79)
Archduchess Maria-des-Neiges Austria (86)
Princess Adelheid Liechtenstein (81)
Princess Hedwig Liechtenstein (82)
Princess Therese Liechtenstein (87)
Princess Gisela Liechtenstein (90)
Princess Leopoldine Liechtenstein (90)
Princess Marie Immaculee Liechtenstein (91)
Princess Maria Anunciata Liechtenstein (85)
Princess Marie Astrid Liechtenstein (87)
Princess Alexandra Luxembourg (91)
Princess Alix Ligne (84) (mother Princess Brazil, grandma Princess Luxembourg)
Princess Amelia Brazil (84) (mother Princess Ligne, grandma Princess Luxembourg)
Princess Maria Gariella Brazil (89)
Princess Xenia Croy (90)
Princess Charlotte Croy (92)
Princess Anne-Helene Arenberg (89)
Princess Catherine Beaufort-Spontin (84)
Princess Marguerite Merode (86)
Princess Eliane Merode (90)
Princess Maria Theresia Thurn and Taxis (80) (close to Austrians)
Princess Elisabeth Turn and Taxis (82)

 

[MAfan]

Princess Adelheid Liechtenstein (81)
Princess Hedwig Liechtenstein (82)

Princess Adelheid and Princess Hedwig are both already married.
As for the rest of the Princesses of your list, almost all of them were born into very devout Catholic families, and this may be a big issue since Georgi's wife should be Orthodox.

 

[Marc23]

Princess Adelheid and Princess Hedwig are both already married.
As for the rest of the Princesses of your list, almost all of them were born into very devout Catholic families, and this may be a big issue since Georgi's wife should be Orthodox.

Right,that's why I excluded some from my list...although,I would like to see him getting married equally no matter if the girl was Catholic,Orthodox or Protestant...

 

[Ceallach]

Except the Galitzines who were raised both. There is a picture of Alexandra attending an Orthodox mass.

Yep, I said that is the detrmining factor - who is willing to give up the faith. Generally, all royal families are more devout than average whether Catholic or Protestant so that is a problem either way. Are you saying the Catholics are less willing to give up the faith?

Alexander of Serbia married a Brazilian princess, and the other Alexander of Serbia married Italian (Belgium) and Liechtenstein ones, and Michael of Romania married a Bourbon-Parma princess - so it can be done. The Brazilians are required to make a royal match too - so may be under more pressure to meet royals and go to parties. His chances may also be better with mediatized houses and more obscure royals. Little is known about them so who knows. But Thurn and Taxis or Luxembourgers like Alexandra, Gabriella, Maria-Anunciata and Marie-Astrid won't convert.

Same with devout protestants going Orthodox - Fredericka of Hanover and Anne-Marie of Denmark to Greece, Margarita of Baden to Tomislav of Serbia.

On the Protestant side - I can see possibly Aglae of Baden who is 30, not sure about Sophie the artist, but not his 2nd cousin Irina, or Madeleine.

Orthodox - not Theodora the actress, maybe Karina of Romania, or Maria of Serbia.

Still, he needs to meet them and get to know them and he is in Belgium. He would have trouble turning a princess Orthodox no matter what. Georg of Prussia may have a love match but Sophie has not converted.

 

[Stefan]

Except the Galitzines who were raised both. There is a picture of Alexandra attending an Orthodox mass.

Yep, I said that is the detrmining factor - who is willing to give up the faith. Generally, all royal families are more devout than average whether Catholic or Protestant so that is a problem either way. Are you saying the Catholics are less willing to give up the faith?

Alexander of Serbia married a Brazilian princess, and the other Alexander of Serbia married Italian (Belgium) and Liechtenstein ones, and Michael of Romania married a Bourbon-Parma princess - so it can be done. The Brazilians are required to make a royal match too - so may be under more pressure to meet royals and go to parties. His chances may also be better with mediatized houses and more obscure royals. Little is known about them so who knows. But Thurn and Taxis or Luxembourgers like Alexandra, Gabriella, Maria-Anunciata and Marie-Astrid won't convert.

Same with devout protestants going Orthodox - Fredericka of Hanover and Anne-Marie of Denmark to Greece, Margarita of Baden to Tomislav of Serbia.

On the Protestant side - I can see possibly Aglae of Baden who is 30, not sure about Sophie the artist, but not his 2nd cousin Irina, or Madeleine.

Orthodox - not Theodora the actress, maybe Karina of Romania, or Maria of Serbia.

Still, he needs to meet them and get to know them and he is in Belgium. He would have trouble turning a princess Orthodox no matter what. Georg of Prussia may have a love match but Sophie has not converted.

In other families like Prussia or Brazil it's easier as the bride herself doesn't have to be cathilic/protestant. They have however to agree that the children are raised in the respective religion.
Wonder if it wouldbe possible for Maria to agree to a marriage who doesn't covert bu is equal in all other terms according to the Pauline Laws.