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  #561  
Old 06-21-2013, 10:34 PM
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You know what, Countess, in many ways I agree with you. Politically speaking, whoever the head of the Russian Imperial Family (or the Brazilian or German, or what have you) is largely unimportant. That they and their heirs continue to marry in accordance to house laws that date back to at best the time that the families were deposed is also, politically speaking, largely unimportant. It is highly unlikely that they or the monarchies to which they are attached will ever be restored, regardless of what the small group of monarchists wish. That doesn't mean that it doesn't continue to be significant who these individuals marry or who the head of the house is, or the heir, or what not. It is important to these individuals and it is important to their supporters. Maria Vladimirovna is a woman who has spent a good portion of her adult life fighting to be recognized as the head of her house and to have her son recognized as her heir, so clearly to her this all is important. This thread is about potential spouses for Georgiy and takes into consideration equal marriages and the rules of succession to the head of his house because regardless of the chance of his or his descendants ever being the Tsar of Russia, or his marriage being of any political significance, it is something that is important in his house - as stressed by his mother. We're not here debating the likelihood of a Russian restoration or even Maria Vladimirovna's claim to her position. We're merely discussing potential wives in accordance to the guidelines present to us. If you don't want to discuss that then why come into this thread? If you want to argue against the continuation of dynastic marriages in royal houses (be they reigning or non-reigning), that's another issue altogether. Personally, I'm not a fan, although I do see some of the benefit of it - in my opinion, non-reigning houses have to continue living by the succession rules that were in place prior to deposition if they wish to continue to make a claim to whatever throne they were deposed from. BrazilianEmpire is in support of dynastic marriages and has argued that they're a continuation of tradition and remain important because as the family is deposed the only way children can learn to be royal is from two royal parents. As to monarchies being anachronistic to modern life, I personally don't agree. While absolute monarchies are anachronistic within western, democratic society (and I hope that one day they will be globally), the majority of monarchies seen today are not absolute. In fact, at the time that most European monarchies were deposed absolute monarchies were anachronistic - even a hundred years ago. A number of these monarchies, including the Russian one, were deposed because while they were making changes they weren't doing so fast enough for the people. The chance of an absolute monarchy being restored in Europe is pretty slim, but that doesn't mean that a constitutional monarchy can't be restored, even in a place where the previous monarchy wasn't constitutional. In fact if you study history you'll see that most restorations tend to have limitations placed on the powers of the monarch, limitations that have only grown with the passage of time.
Well said, Ish! Thanks!
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  #562  
Old 06-22-2013, 10:50 AM
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I think that Georgi is barely Russian as it is and a wife who is foreign will end up just diluting what Russian blood he has left even more. It's not like she's even connected with Russia in any way.

It is a pity that Georgi isn't interested in a Russian; as for Maria, she has tirelessly fought for her position (and that of her son) and I wonder how on earth she would end up being successful if in fact she ended up with an Italian socialite Catholic daughter-in-law.
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Her religion isn't necessarily important, as she can convert or they could chose to raise any children in the Orthodox Church.
She would have to end up converting before marriage.

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However, there is a huge degree of hypocrisy given as Maria became the head of the house owing to the fact that she claims all male dynasts were the products of or entered into unequal marriages. If her son and heir were to then enter into an unequal marriage then he should lose his dynastic rights.
The irony is, that a lot of the other dyansts married aristocrats, not royals and yet this woman is a commoner with no aristocratic title.
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  #563  
Old 06-22-2013, 03:25 PM
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You know what, Countess, in many ways I agree with you. Politically speaking, whoever the head of the Russian Imperial Family (or the Brazilian or German, or what have you) is largely unimportant. That they and their heirs continue to marry in accordance to house laws that date back to at best the time that the families were deposed is also, politically speaking, largely unimportant. It is highly unlikely that they or the monarchies to which they are attached will ever be restored, regardless of what the small group of monarchists wish. That doesn't mean that it doesn't continue to be significant who these individuals marry or who the head of the house is, or the heir, or what not. It is important to these individuals and it is important to their supporters.

Maria Vladimirovna is a woman who has spent a good portion of her adult life fighting to be recognized as the head of her house and to have her son recognized as her heir, so clearly to her this all is important. This thread is about potential spouses for Georgiy and takes into consideration equal marriages and the rules of succession to the head of his house because regardless of the chance of his or his descendants ever being the Tsar of Russia, or his marriage being of any political significance, it is something that is important in his house - as stressed by his mother.

We're not here debating the likelihood of a Russian restoration or even Maria Vladimirovna's claim to her position. We're merely discussing potential wives in accordance to the guidelines present to us. If you don't want to discuss that then why come into this thread? If you want to argue against the continuation of dynastic marriages in royal houses (be they reigning or non-reigning), that's another issue altogether. Personally, I'm not a fan, although I do see some of the benefit of it - in my opinion, non-reigning houses have to continue living by the succession rules that were in place prior to deposition if they wish to continue to make a claim to whatever throne they were deposed from. BrazilianEmpire is in support of dynastic marriages and has argued that they're a continuation of tradition and remain important because as the family is deposed the only way children can learn to be royal is from two royal parents.

As to monarchies being anachronistic to modern life, I personally don't agree. While absolute monarchies are anachronistic within western, democratic society (and I hope that one day they will be globally), the majority of monarchies seen today are not absolute. In fact, at the time that most European monarchies were deposed absolute monarchies were anachronistic - even a hundred years ago. A number of these monarchies, including the Russian one, were deposed because while they were making changes they weren't doing so fast enough for the people. The chance of an absolute monarchy being restored in Europe is pretty slim, but that doesn't mean that a constitutional monarchy can't be restored, even in a place where the previous monarchy wasn't constitutional. In fact if you study history you'll see that most restorations tend to have limitations placed on the powers of the monarch, limitations that have only grown with the passage of time.
Oh, I am sorry that I gave you the impression that I opposed todays limited functioning monarchies in Europe. Not at all. I, also, cannot picture Russia with a Constitutional monarchy. But that is my opinion, not necessarily fact. As for Brazil, that I, believe, is anachronistic, as it was out of a colonial grab, like Maximillian in Mexico. In this hemisphere it is very doubtful. I just see a nice young man, that is my impression of him, and she looks likes a nice young woman and they could have a happy life, without this extra interference.
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  #564  
Old 06-22-2013, 04:26 PM
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Countess: Maria V. is 59. She will be the big 6-0 Dec.23.
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  #565  
Old 06-22-2013, 05:57 PM
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Countess: Maria V. is 59. She will be the big 6-0 Dec.23.
How old is George?
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  #566  
Old 06-22-2013, 05:58 PM
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How old is George?
He turned 32 in March.
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  #567  
Old 06-22-2013, 08:25 PM
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She would have to end up converting before marriage.

.
Some women who married into the imperial family either didn't convert or converted some time after marriage(Grand Duchess Elizabeth, sister of the last Empress Consort is an example of one who converted several years into her marriage). Would the woman who marries George have to convert before marriage because he is the future head of the family? Or is it because she is catholic rather than protestant like the women I'm thinking of were?
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  #568  
Old 06-22-2013, 08:27 PM
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Sorry she looks ancient, overweight and poor taste in clothes. By the way that is nothing and unkind on my part. It is her mindset that bothers me most. I am 71, my mother will be 99, The Lord Bless her, and Maria looks like something from another century. I, believe, that life has not been kind to her, because she has been handed this impossible or ridiculous chore. Georgi looks and acts like a kind fellow. He loves his mother. Bless him. But she loves this idea better than she loves him, IMHO. Otherwise, she would say, if you love her and she loves you, how wonderful.
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  #569  
Old 06-22-2013, 09:18 PM
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Has Maria spoken out against the relationship? I know we on this forum have discussed the consequences regarding the heir to the head of the house, but so far as I know none of us is (or is claiming to be) Maria Vladimirovna.

Personally, while I think good for him regardless of who he ends up with, and I think that if this woman is a decent person them Maria should support her son regardless of what his marital choices do to his succession rights.

At the same time, I believe that she would e a hypocrite if she waved a hand and dismissed the dynastic marriage element of the succession for Georgi. Maria has fought for her recognition as the head of the house saying that everyone who comes before her in the line of succession is removed from it due to their not being a dynast.

If Georgi marries morganatically then he is not a dynast and should be removed from the line of succession.
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  #570  
Old 06-22-2013, 09:32 PM
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A morganatic marriage does not remove the dynast from the line of succession, it removes any children of the marriage from the succession.
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  #571  
Old 06-22-2013, 09:34 PM
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In this blog there has been mention of several women who could be potential brides for Grand Duke Georgi. I would think years ago that someone in his family or the Grand Duke Georgi would have an idea of who might be a suitable bride for him or would have a short list of potential brides or women who could be potential brides.

Seems like the requirements to be his bride would be difficult to meet in this modern day and age.
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  #572  
Old 06-22-2013, 09:38 PM
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It depends, is she his mother or the heiress to a non-existent and probably, always non-existent throne. She is divorced. Not a judgment, just a statement. I don't think she has had a happy life. That is sad. I would think, foremost she would want joy for her son and not a fantasy. We are in the 21st Century. The Romanovs are long past, except for their fantasy. A line of succession exists only if their is an actual "job" at the end. They have past that. It is, almost 100 years. Would you support an Egyptian in line to be Pharaoh? Frankly, I though we would be past condemning a young man to pick a bride for dynastic purposes, when the dynasty is, really, dead.
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  #573  
Old 06-22-2013, 09:53 PM
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It depends, is she his mother or the heiress to a non-existent and probably, always non-existent throne.
She's both. Her Imperial Highness is a mother and the rightful heiress to the Russian Throne.

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Would you support an Egyptian in line to be Pharaoh?
If there were a line of succession, stating that the egyptian is the rightful Pharaoh, yes, I would support him, as I'm Monarchist, I shall always promote Monarchism.

But in fact, the is a line of succession the the Egyptian Throne, and King Faud II is the Pretender.

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Frankly, I though we would be past condemning a young man to pick a bride for dynastic purposes, when the dynasty is, really, dead.
As long there is a Romanov Dynast alive, the Dynasty isn't dead.
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  #574  
Old 06-22-2013, 09:59 PM
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A morganatic marriage does not remove the dynast from the line of succession, it removes any children of the marriage from the succession.
I stand corrected (and appreciate the correction).

My point still stands though. If Georgi marries morganatically then the succession will have to move out of the line of Maria Vladimirovna (just after Georgi's death instead of his mother's). I still don't believe that she can change the succession to make allowances for Georgi here.
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  #575  
Old 06-22-2013, 10:07 PM
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And Disney World can make a ride. The Russian Throne does not exist, will not exist and probably will never exist, again. And the Egyptians will not have a Pharaoh. But a young man's happiness is at stake, so if it were your child what would you do? I know my answer. Maria can't change anything for Georgi, but she can be a good mother and support him in a real life.
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  #576  
Old 06-22-2013, 10:12 PM
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But a young man's happiness is at stake, so if it were your child what would you do?
My parents taught my sisters and me that the family's interests always have to come first. I'll certainly teach the same to my children.

Duty has always to come first, doesn't matters the sacrifices you'll have to make.
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  #577  
Old 06-22-2013, 10:22 PM
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Please, note that, legitimate, Constitutional Monarchies, that, really exist today, do not have these prohibitions, because they are quite well aware of the consequences, in Europe. So, Spain, Belgium, Luxembourg, Holland, Denmark, Sweden, Norway and Great Britain, have long given up these antiquated ideas. And they still have thrones. The rest are just playing non-existent parts, because it doesn't matter. And, I am sorry for you, as family and loving comes first, the rest is commentary. I want Georgi to enjoy the only life he will have.
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  #578  
Old 06-22-2013, 10:25 PM
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And, I am sorry for you, as family and loving comes first, the rest is commentary.
I do not need your pity.
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  #579  
Old 06-22-2013, 10:55 PM
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Please, note that, legitimate, Constitutional Monarchies, that, really exist today, do not have these prohibitions, because they are quite well aware of the consequences, in Europe. So, Spain, Belgium, Luxembourg, Holland, Denmark, Sweden, Norway and Great Britain, have long given up these antiquated ideas. And they still have thrones.
Not all of these thrones that you've mentioned ever had these prohibitions, so their not having them today is irrelevant to this discussion.

For the ones that once had those restriction and have since abandoned them, they have a luxury that non-reigning houses don't have. As reigning houses they're supported by governments, and when the head of the house decided that he or she wants to have the succession changed they are able to do so through legislature. Non-reigning houses don't have this ability, thus in order to maintain any legitimacy they have to maintain the older house rules. It's that simple.

I've explained all this to you before, but you seem to have failed to listen. So I ask, if you don't think that non-reigning houses are significant why do you come to the non-reigning forums? Why waste your time discussing people that to you aren't important?

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The rest are just playing non-existent parts, because it doesn't matter. And, I am sorry for you, as family and loving comes first, the rest is commentary. I want Georgi to enjoy the only life he will have.
Do you have any evidence whatsoever to support your claim that Maria is anything other than a loving mother? Has she spoken out against Georgi or this relationship? Has she abused or neglected or mistreated him in anyway?

Whether you think the succession matters is irrelevant. Politically it probably doesn't. That doesn't mean that to monarchists it doesn't matter, and Maria is a monarchist. That means that while she could fully support her son's decision to marry a commoner she is still going to have to accept that it's going to affect the succession.

And even if she doesn't, others will. There are other claimants to the head of the Russian Imperial Family, and others who stand to gain in the regards of monarchists from Georgi's children not being dynasts.

Whether you think it matters or not is, frankly, irrelevant, as members of the Russian Imperial Family continue to regard it as important, as do many monarchists.
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  #580  
Old 06-22-2013, 11:45 PM
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Well the Roumanians and the Habsburgs though no longer in power seem to have adapted to the modern world and allow members to marry who they wish. Michael even declares his eldest daughter heiress and a grandson by another daughter a prince. Karl Habsburg has apparently declared those previously considered morganauts to now be equals and titled as Archdukes and Archduchesses for whatever that is worth. Neither seem to believe governments are needed to regulate family members.
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