The Royal Forums Coat of Arms

Go Back   The Royal Forums > Non-Reigning Houses > The Imperial Family of Russia

Join The Royal Forums Today
Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
 
  #321  
Old 12-21-2011, 12:46 PM
Heir Apparent
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Toronto (ON) & London (UK), Canada
Posts: 5,261
True, but it would still open up old wounds and questions about Marias own disputed claims to headship. If he cannot find the perfect princess bride maybe it would be best to acknowledge the other Romanovs in advance of his selecting a non-equal marriage partner.
__________________

__________________
Reply With Quote
  #322  
Old 12-21-2011, 12:56 PM
Aristocracy
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Regina, Canada
Posts: 184
Where does it say that the mother's title can only outway the father's if they are monarch? Princess Astrid's children are first and foremost called Prince/ss of Belgium and she is not the heir. They have an HRH from mom and a HIRH from dad. Many inherit titles from both parents especially since many have changed succession laws.

As far as I know only Russia and Brazil only require marriage to another royal.

The Brazilians as a result have the same issue - elder son disinherited for marrying russian noble but disputed it and his heir still claims throne. Younger son married Bavarian princess made heir and his son is married to Princess of Ligne which is meditized and acceptable. The first family says a Princess of Ligne should be not be ok, while Russian noble is not. Yet it is, cause Russian noble were never mediatized. No matter who Georgi marries there will be someone making an issue of it but it will not mean it is not a credible match - Maria determines that.

Sorry not Russian czech noble.
__________________

__________________
Reply With Quote
  #323  
Old 12-21-2011, 01:35 PM
Heir Apparent
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Toronto (ON) & London (UK), Canada
Posts: 5,261
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ceallach View Post
Where does it say that the mother's title can only outway the father's if they are monarch? Princess Astrid's children are first and foremost called Prince/ss of Belgium and she is not the heir. They have an HRH from mom and a HIRH from dad. Many inherit titles from both parents especially since many have changed succession laws.
The lady you are promoting is a Princess Galitzine, not HIH Archduchess of Austria.
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #324  
Old 12-21-2011, 02:29 PM
Courtier
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Waterford, United States
Posts: 828
I still think that even if she isn't 'royalty' in the usual sense, a princess is still a princess and that things should work better that way. Is Georgi supposed to just suddenly end up marrying a foreign princess, leaving his children with next to no Russian blood, but sitting on the Imperial Throne?
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #325  
Old 12-21-2011, 03:29 PM
Heir Apparent
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Toronto (ON) & London (UK), Canada
Posts: 5,261
^^^
That pretty much how it works. The princely noble families of Russia are I suppose more akin to a British duke in the sense that they are the top end of the nobility in the former Russian Empire but were not royalty. A princess is in this case not the same as a princess from a reigning or a mediatised house. It also explains why most of the reigning European royal families are of largely German blood lines because there were so many petty German courts who could supply brides who were of suitable birth and also willing to change religions if need be. Today the only way "national bloodlines" are being brought back into the reigning dynasties is because some heirs (UK, Norway, Sweden,Spain are examples) have chosen to marry citizens of their own nations.
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #326  
Old 12-21-2011, 05:39 PM
MAfan's Avatar
Super Moderator
Royal Blogger
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: N/A, Italy
Posts: 4,320
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ceallach View Post
Unlike the Romanovs who married Galitzines, Maria Anna of Austria is still HIRH Maria Anna of Austria. She did not lose status for her marriage to a galitzine since Austria considers marriages to nobles acceptable not morgantic. So she and her children are dynasts of Austria, unlike the Romanovs who married Galitzines who are not dynasts of Russia.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ceallach View Post
The Austria royal/galitzines are members of the Austria royal family the same way Peter and Zara Philips are members of the British royal family, and the Belgian-Austrians were members of the Belgian royal family before they got titles.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ceallach View Post
Austria (and Belgium) has a different system than Russia where marriage to a noble such as a Galitzine is acceptable not morgantic and you do not lose status. Mariia Anna's mother was also a russian noble and her and her siblings are HIRH and her brother's children are HIRH. Her daughters could be officially raised to HIRH Princess Tatiana/Alexandra/Maria Galitzine, Archduchess of Austria just like their cousins by a Archduke Karl though proclomation or succession change. The reason they presently do not have is not because of the sex of their parent (a situation many royal families have or are changing) and not cause their mother married a noble and lost status for her and her children (such as is the case in Russia).
The four Galitzine sisters are not members nor dynasts of the Imperial House of Austria. Their mother was born an Archduchess of Austria, they are related to the Austrian Imperial Family, but they aren't members of that family. (In the same way, Peter and Zara Phillips are indeed the grandchildren of the British Sovereign and children of the Princess Royal, but they aren't members of the British Royal Family.)
The only way they have for becoming Imperial and Royal Highnesses and Archduchesses of Austria (apart from marrying and Archduke) is that all the male members and several female members of the Imperial Family die, so that Maria Anna remains as the nearest member of the Family to Archduke Karl, then she becomes Head of the Imperial House and her children are raised to Imperial and Royal Highnesses and Archdukes of Austria.
It is highly unlikely (and imo totally out of the question) that Archduke Karl raises the descendants of Archduchesses to the rank of Archdukes/Archduchesses.
And however, they would still remain Princesses Galitzine, so part of the problem would still remain.
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #327  
Old 12-21-2011, 06:55 PM
Heir Presumptive
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: , United States
Posts: 2,731
Quote:
Originally Posted by AristoCat View Post
I still think that even if she isn't 'royalty' in the usual sense, a princess is still a princess and that things should work better that way. Is Georgi supposed to just suddenly end up marrying a foreign princess, leaving his children with next to no Russian blood, but sitting on the Imperial Throne?
Well, traditionally, that's what most of the royal dynasties of Europe did for centuries. They were always forbidden to marry a commoner or a subject and had to marry equally, which usually meant finding a German princess since there were so many kingdoms, duchies, grand duchies, etc. with eligible brides.

As far as Russian blood goes, Georgi and his mother have almost no Russian blood in their veins. Like most royals, they are primarily German in bloodline.
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #328  
Old 12-21-2011, 07:46 PM
Aristocracy
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Regina, Canada
Posts: 184
My point being that they could get a title without alot of people dying because it has happened before through changes to succession or like Ena of Battenberg - having one person given a title to make a marriage happen. You can do this to a relative and it is a legitimate thing to do. It may seem far fetched, but it may take something like that happening in order for Georgi to find a royal bride.

The only way he can marry a royal in the near future with russian blood is if either the Karl of Austria or Michael of Romania raise the staus of the Galitzines or Karina; get someone with Russian blood to convert such as Aglae of Baden or Sophie of Holstein; marry his second cousin Ines of Georgia or convince Princess Theodora to give up acting and marry him cause as a far as I can tell those 2 are the only ones over 20 of those with and without royal blood who presently would not either have to convert to Orthodox (Georgian/Greek to Russian not so big a deal) or have their family raise their rank. Otherwise he needs to wait for the teenage Eastern princesses to grow up and hope for the best: Maria of Serbia, or Maria-Olimpia of Grecce with russian blood, or Mafalda and Olimpia of Bulgaria who are without russian blood.

This is why russia has all the morgantic marriages; and those that aren't seem more like business deals. Not alot of choice.

Cause without someone making a change - as things stand now - the only girls he can marry are Ines and Theodora.

Royal and aristocratic young ladies posing for a bridal photo shoot

Queen Elisabeth and Philip are second cousins, as are Aimone and Olga of Aosta, and Carl Christian and Marie Astrid (Luxembourg) of Austria. Also a common thing of the past.
If they are ok with it - then HRH Ines of Bagration is the most likely bride and she should have some russian in her ancestry, but no german, but her grandmother was a Bavarian/Spanish royal too.

obviously the bavarian is german, i meant to say the Georgian part would have no german.
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #329  
Old 12-21-2011, 08:58 PM
Heir Apparent
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Toronto (ON) & London (UK), Canada
Posts: 5,261
A lot of German princesses would likely have a Russian Grand Duchess lurking somewhere in their family tree. Russian ancestry is not the requirement,however nice that may be, the requirement is appropriate birth rank. A Bagration would reopen questions of their suitability since they were merged into the Russian aristocracy and many people dispute whether Leonida was of equal rank when she married into the Imperial Family. She did of course have the advantage of having some money via her first husband.
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #330  
Old 12-21-2011, 09:00 PM
Aristocracy
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Regina, Canada
Posts: 184
But are the Germans so willing nowadays to become Orthodox?
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #331  
Old 12-21-2011, 09:14 PM
Heir Apparent
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Toronto (ON) & London (UK), Canada
Posts: 5,261
^^^^
Best he finds one first.
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #332  
Old 12-21-2011, 09:14 PM
Newbie
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Orange, CA, United States
Posts: 6
Isn't one of the "conditions" of the Pauline Laws that in order for an HIH Grand Duke/Duchess of Russia to marry - that not only does the match have to be equal, but also has to be able to proven that the equality reaches back 8 generations on each parents genealogical family trees? Maybe I'm mistaken about this, but I could swear that I read that on this forum? Please correct this post if that's the case ..
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #333  
Old 12-21-2011, 09:19 PM
Heir Apparent
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Toronto (ON) & London (UK), Canada
Posts: 5,261
Possible but I dont believe so, they accepted the Leuchtenbergs after all. I think it is really just the status of the bride and her family and their ranking in the Gotha. Doubt if they would be put off by a mere countess in the background as long as her own family laws allowed it.
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #334  
Old 12-21-2011, 09:29 PM
Aristocracy
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Regina, Canada
Posts: 184
That is true. Leonida's mother was a polish countess - the other Romanovs would have brought up the eight generations thing with Leonida if that was the case.
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #335  
Old 12-21-2011, 09:47 PM
Heir Presumptive
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: , United States
Posts: 2,731
No, that is not a requirement under the Pauline Laws. It is the birth status of the bride that matters.

Leonida is a whole other issue. There is no way Vladimir's marriage would have been accepted by a reigning Tsar as equal because the Bagration-Moukhranis were always nobility under the Russian Empire and a cadet line under the Gruzinsky Tsars of Georgia. They were not granted the rank and status of Prince/Princess of Georgia under the Treaty either.
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #336  
Old 12-22-2011, 12:20 AM
Courtier
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: philadelphia, United States
Posts: 701
Quote:
Originally Posted by AceOfSpades View Post
Isn't one of the "conditions" of the Pauline Laws that...the equality reaches back 8 generations on each parents genealogical family trees?
I don't think so...As someone said-there is the the Leuchtenberg case,but there is also later a Montenegro case(apart from being daughters of the Prince,later King,Princesses of Montenegro had no noble ancestry in European sense of the word) and there is a Serbian case when Prince Ioann of Russia married equally HRH Princess Helena of Serbia who also can't claim 8 nearest ancestors being all equal,or even noble...in European sense,of course,as their untitled ancestors were local "nobility"...

Quote:
Originally Posted by branchg View Post
As far as Russian blood goes, Georgi and his mother have almost no Russian blood in their veins. Like most royals, they are primarily German in bloodline.
Well,Princess Leonida has descended from Dolgorukow family,so she has a bit of Russian blood...apart from her mainly Georgian and Polish blood Leonida has also some German blood from Baltic area...
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #337  
Old 12-22-2011, 11:26 AM
Aristocracy
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Regina, Canada
Posts: 184
I think that since Leonida's nephew Georgi, and now his son David have been officially recognized by Georgia as the would-be kings of Georgia, that is less of an issue now. It may reopen an issue, but it is one they have weathered before and has not prevented Maria from being considered by most, except certain relatives, as the would-be Tsarina. Any fuss made over Ines would be ignored as it is an issued that would be seen as settled. Where as another girl would probably come with her own new issues for Georgi unless he convinces Theodora to give up acting or waits for one of the other eastern European princess to grow up. She also comes with more royal blood than Leonida through her grandmother who was a Bavarian princess/Enfanta of Spain.
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #338  
Old 12-22-2011, 01:02 PM
Heir Presumptive
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: , United States
Posts: 2,731
I agree Leonida's status is less of an issue now, especially given the fact that she is a princess of a formerly reigning house that is now recognized in Georgia as royal, in comparison to Vladimir's cousins who most definitely married Russian nobles that were subjects of the Tsar for centuries.

Georgi has to marry equally to strengthen the Vladimirovchi's claim in the future.
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #339  
Old 12-23-2011, 09:18 AM
Courtier
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: philadelphia, United States
Posts: 701
We view things in a same way...also when registering after their wedding Emperor Nicholas suggested that Konstantin Bagration,the bridegroom of Tatiana Konstantinovna,signes the wedding register as "Prince Gruzinsky" (i.e. "Prince of Georgia") and assured Grand Duke Konstantin that "they would never look upon her marriage to Bagration as morganatic,because this House, like the House of Orleans, is descended from a once ruling dynasty."
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #340  
Old 12-23-2011, 10:21 AM
Heir Presumptive
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: , United States
Posts: 2,731
Nicholas was fond of Grand Duke Constantine and Tatiana, but he did not accept her marriage as equal. She renounced her rights to the throne beforehand and he issued a decree confirming her style would be HH Princess Tatiana Bagration-Mouhkrani (she retained her rank as a Highness).

It was a marriage of good standing for a princess of the blood far from the succession.
__________________

__________________
Reply With Quote
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
A Potential Wife for Prince Harry Zonk Prince Harry and Prince William 1781 07-12-2014 12:25 PM
A Commoner as royal bride? Catherine Middleton and who else? CharlotteAmalia British Royal History 71 01-27-2014 03:49 PM




Additional Links
Popular Tags
birth charlene chris o'neill crown prince frederik crown prince haakon crown princess letizia crown princess mary crown princess mette-marit crown princess victoria current events fashion grand duchess maria teresa grand duke henri habsburg hohenzollern infanta elena jordan king abdullah ii king albert ii king carl xvi gustav king felipe king felipe vi king harald king juan carlos king philippe king willem-alexander luxembourg ottoman pom prince albert prince albert ii prince carl philip prince constantijn prince emmanuel prince felipe prince felix prince floris prince laurent prince maurits prince pieter-christiaan princess princess alexia (2005 -) princess anita princess ariane princess beatrix princess catharina-amalia princess charlene princess claire princess eleonore princess elisabeth princess laurentien princess letizia princess mabel princess madeleine princess margriet princess marie princess mary queen letizia queen mathilde queen maxima queen paola queen rania queen silvia queen sofia royal russia spain state visit wedding william


Our Communities

Our communities encompass many different hobbies and interests, but each one is built on friendly, intelligent membership.

» More about our Communities

Automotive Communities

Our Automotive communities encompass many different makes and models. From U.S. domestics to European Saloons.

» More about our Automotive Communities

RV & Travel Trailer Communities

Our RV & Travel Trailer sites encompasses virtually all types of Recreational Vehicles, from brand-specific to general RV communities.

» More about our RV Communities

Marine Communities

Our Marine websites focus on Cruising and Sailing Vessels, including forums and the largest cruising Wiki project on the web today.

» More about our Marine Communities


Copyright 2002-2012 Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -4. The time now is 10:02 AM.

Social Knowledge Networks

eXTReMe Tracker
Powered by vBulletin
Copyright ©2000 - 2014
Jelsoft Enterprises

Royal News Delivered to your Email!

You can get the latest Royal News right in your inbox.

unsusbcribe at anytime with one click

Close [X]