A bride for Alexei

[pamela18335]

Actually, I have a lot of doubts that Alexis would reach the adulthood, but I can't know it dfor sure; after all, his cousin Prince Waldemar of Prussia, suffering of aemophilia as well, died aged 56.

MAfan, as did Queen Victoria's son, Prince Leopold, Duke of Albany, who lived to be 30, married, and had children, both male and female. Of course, Leopold, being male, would not have had a hemophiliac child, since the gene comes from the maternal line. The same would have been true of Alexei, and the only caution would have been to select a wife who would not be a potential carrier.

That the disease was inherited through the mother was known at the time, so I agree that Alix would have likely looked for a suitable bride for Alexei from a Royal line demonstrated to be free of the defect.

 

[pamela18335]

Ileana's biological father was actually Prince Barbu Ştirbey like the last kid of the royal family.
Officially it was simply a rumor because Queen Marie didn't love her husband and disdained him and Prince Stirbey was her lover almost officially - but for the romanian people it's the true. Today also.

reginalix, is there scientific proof that Stirbey was Ileana's father or is this pure supposition and conjecture that gained the credibility of an urban myth?

 

[Vasillisos Markos]

Pamela 18335,

I believe there was very strong suspicion that Marie and Prince Barbu were lovers and he is strongly suspected of fathering Mircea and possibly Ileana but without DNA testing, how can anyone know the exact truth? But, if there was a whiff of suspicion, I think Alix would have tried to stop the marriage because of the "taint" surrounding Ileana.

 

[persian85033]

Olga was 23, Tatiana 21, Maria 19 and Anastasia 17 when they were murdered; and at the time; I was surprised too that no one of them was engaged at the time. I mean, when their mother married aged 22 she was considered even too old for marrying!
Btw, the Earl Mountbatten of Burma was in love with Maria, and always kept a picture of her beside his bed; but the same Maria once said that her intention was to marry a Russian soldier and have twenty children with him.

They weren't children anymore, but young women. Though perhaps if they had been married abroad, perhaps at least one of them may have survived.

Although if Alix and Nicholas wanted their daughters to marry for love, how were they going to do that if the girls never saw anyone? Their lives were so sheltered, it seems to me. How were they going to meet men, or be courted? I've read that their lives were so very sheltered, that they still talked amongst themselves like little girls. I don't know whether to believe that.

 

[reginalix]

reginalix, is there scientific proof that Stirbey was Ileana's father or is this pure supposition and conjecture that gained the credibility of an urban myth?

Of course a King can't ask for DNA test in front of his country - and it's not for the crown prince but for the last kids. It's not important.

It's absolutely true that Queen Marie and Stirbey were lovers (letters...). Because of Mircea and Ileana's eyes colour and the no intimate cohabitation on the "female biological" days between the King and the Queen, the ladies in waiting and the Court were astonished about these pregnancies.
Only God knows the real truth and their mother of course.....

 

[MAfan]

Although if Alix and Nicholas wanted their daughters to marry for love, how were they going to do that if the girls never saw anyone? Their lives were so sheltered, it seems to me. How were they going to meet men, or be courted? I've read that their lives were so very sheltered, that they still talked amongst themselves like little girls. I don't know whether to believe that.

This is another very interesting point...I can think to only two possibilities: they would fall in love with one of their cousins (of course, one of their relatives liked by Alix&Nicholas), and in this case the marriage would be equal with no problems as consequences; or they would fell in love with someone of the entourage of the Imperial Family, someone living and/or working at Alexander Palace (and therefore someone liked by Alix&Nicholas, as Alexander Palace was frequented only by those they liked); but in this case the marriage would likely be unequal, surely involving some problems.
In both cases, it's likely that the four daaughters wouldn't move far from their parents and siblings, making all them (and most of all Alix) happy.

 

[amedea]

I've read that N&A thought GD Dimitri would have been a suitable choice for one of their daughters until he started to have a life style considered scandalous.
About Alexei I really think a German wife could cause too much problems. So I think suitable brides could have been GDsses Natalia Constantinova and Vera Constantinova and GD Xenia Georgievna.

 

[fandesacs2003]

Not a German bride, considering the carastrophy of the WW1. I would say one of the Greek Princesses, or a British Princess.
More a Greek because of the closure of the religion, and also that this period after the Grand Duchesss Olga became Queen of Greece, many of her descendancy married back in Russia. Greece was very close to Russia

 

[fandesacs2003]

Excluding all the Catholic Princesses, because the Pope wouldn't agree about their conversion:
Ingrid or Astrid of Sweden;
Feodora, Carolina Mathilde or Alexandrina Louise of Denmark;
Evgenia, Olga, Elisabeta or Marina of Greece;
Friederike of Hannover;
Irene or Viktoria of Hesse-Philippsthal-Barchfeld;
Viktoria of Schleswig Holstein;
Karoline, Sieglinde or Elisabeth of Lippe-Biesterfeld;
Eleonore of Lippe-Weissenfeld;
Marie Therese, Luise, Marianne, Elisabeth of Prussia;
Ileana of Romania;
Sophie of Saxe-Weimar-Eisenach;
Elisabeth of Saxe-Altenburg;
Sibylle or Caroline of Saxe-Coburg-Gotha;
Elisabeth or Bathildis of Schaumburg-Lippe.

Nice list. The funny think is that IF he had survived and IF he had married Federika of Hannover, she had not became Queen of Greece, she had become Tsarine and she had created the same mess in Russia than she did in Greece!!! So Russian Royalty would had fallen anyway. On the other side Greek Royalty might be still in place!

 

[MAfan]

Not a German bride, considering the carastrophy of the WW1. I would say one of the Greek Princesses, or a British Princess.
More a Greek because of the closure of the religion, and also that this period after the Grand Duchesss Olga became Queen of Greece, many of her descendancy married back in Russia. Greece was very close to Russia

Actually there wasn't any British Princess suitable for Alexis; the last British Princess born before the present Queen Elizabeth II was her aunt Princess Mary, who was 7 years older than Alexis (and therefore was too old for him).

 

[fandesacs2003]

Actually there wasn't any British Princess suitable for Alexis; the last British Princess born before the present Queen Elizabeth II was her aunt Princess Mary, who was 7 years older than Alexis (and therefore was too old for him).

Yes, Mary, Princess Royal, daughter of King and sister of Kings . Do you think that 7 years was so important to break a future alliance, if all other conditions were favorable?
Who knows?

 

[Vasillisos Markos]

Wouldn't there be other princesses other than Mary? Oh wait, only the daughters of Queen Victoria's sons could be styled Princesses and those granddaughters would be Alix's age or younger, but older than Alexei. Too bad Edward VII did not have more sons to produce children.

 

[persian85033]

Sometimes I think, perhaps in Alix's eyes, no one could have been good enough for Alexei. If she and Minnie didn't get along, I think perhaps Alix would have been a much harder and more controlling mother-in-law than Minnie. Just a thought of mine.

And to find someone to meet Alix's standards for the girls...that would have been pretty tough, too.

 

[pamela18335]

Sometimes I think, perhaps in Alix's eyes, no one could have been good enough for Alexei. If she and Minnie didn't get along, I think perhaps Alix would have been a much harder and more controlling mother-in-law than Minnie. Just a thought of mine.

persian, I have been saying this all along. As a mother-in-law to any bride of Alexei, I suspect Alix would have been most difficult. I'm sure she would have felt that no one could care for Alexei as well as she, and, of course, had Alexei succeeded his father, as Dowager Empress, she would have had precedence over the new Tsarevna.

The only potential mitigating factor might have been her memories of her own early days as Tsarevna, and her bitterness at her treatment by Minnie (refusing to return the Crown jewels, for example). Perhaps this would have influenced her to treat her daughter-in-law differently.

 

[persian85033]

Sorry, I was just kind of 'typing out loud'.

 

[pamela18335]

Both Olga and Tatiana were of marriageable age. Have any of you considered that their potential for being a carrier of hemophilia may have played some role in the fact that neither were married or even betrothed at an age when most girls from royal houses were either married or spoken for?

 

[reginalix]

The Court doctors thought all the fours daughters were active carriers of hemophilia.
They operated both youngers and they lost more blood than normal people (but unimportant because they were girls) and the dentists noticed the same thing to all four girls with important bleedings of gums.
After two generations of strange deaths, and surviving grown-up princes but cloistered, all the Courts knew the truth about health problems of the descendants of Victoria.

 

[Vasillisos Markos]

But are carriers of the hemophilia gene "bleeders" or bleed more than others? There could be any number of explanations for bleeding-- poor hygiene with gum bleeding (lack of flossing for example) and so on. However, I do like the thought that if the girls were considered carriers of the gene, other families might have shied away from marriage prospects. But outside the members of the Russian Royal Family, I thought other royals were kept in the dark about Alexei.

 

[pamela18335]

Vasillisos, the female carriers have one normal "X" chromosome, and one with the defective allele. It follows then that they have only 50% of the two clotting factors, XIII and IX. While not full-blown hemophiliacs, they have a decreased coagulability compared to women with two normal "X" chromosomes. Women who carry the abnormal allele rarely die from heart attacks caused by coronary thrombosis (blood clots).

 

[pamela18335]

The Court doctors thought all the fours daughters were active carriers of hemophilia.
They operated both youngers and they lost more blood than normal people (but unimportant because they were girls) and the dentists noticed the same thing to all four girls with important bleedings of gums.
After two generations of strange deaths, and surviving grown-up princes but cloistered, all the Courts knew the truth about health problems of the descendants of Victoria.

reginalix, can you offer citations for this? As much as I've read about Nicky and Alix, this is the first time I've heard of this opinion of the court physicians.

Statistically speaking, it would be unusual for all four daughters to be carriers.

 

[pamela18335]

However, I do like the thought that if the girls were considered carriers of the gene, other families might have shied away from marriage prospects. But outside the members of the Russian Royal Family, I thought other royals were kept in the dark about Alexei.

Vasillisos, I know that there was a concerted effort to keep the Russian people from knowing about Alexei's disease (which may have been a big mistake; the Russian people have a real empathy for those suffering tragedies). As a granddaughter of Queen Victoria, Alix had first cousins on thrones all over Europe. Somehow I doubt that it would have been possible to keep this affliction a total secret within the extended family.

 

[reginalix]

reginalix, can you offer citations for this? As much as I've read about Nicky and Alix, this is the first time I've heard of this opinion of the court physicians.

Statistically speaking, it would be unusual for all four daughters to be carriers.

In an ITW, their Aunt GD Olga Alexandrovna said she believed all her nieces were carriers. It was also the doctor's opinion and the opinion of her mother the Downager Empress.

We have only a proof for one of the sisters : GD Maria - When the American laboratory made the identification of Alexei and one of the sister (later they confirmed it was Maria) they verified the genetic filiation but also the genetic abnormalities (the son of the Czar being considered haemophilic they will have to find necessarily this abnormality on the DNA of the human rests) - they proved that Alexei was carrier of the haemophilia B, the rarest (but an American researcher the Pr Kendrick tilts even today for another disease) and that his sister was a carrier also of this disease.

Years before, the commission didn't ask for a complete genetic reading on the OTA's bodies.

 

[Hereditary Thane]

There is a contradiction here. A prince of the Russian empire was a prince; to suggest some were of lower caste in the upper nobility is an assumption based on what?

 

[Vasillisos Markos]

Vasillisos, the female carriers have one normal "X" chromosome, and one with the defective allele. It follows then that they have only 50% of the two clotting factors, XIII and IX. While not full-blown hemophiliacs, they have a decreased coagulability compared to women with two normal "X" chromosomes. Women who carry the abnormal allele rarely die from heart attacks caused by coronary thrombosis (blood clots).

Pamela,

Thank you for the explanation--I never knew this. Do you think this could explain all the ailments Alexandra complained of on a daily basis? I had read that the royal dentists paid her daily visits at Tsarskoe Selo.

HEY, my 400 post!!!

 

[pamela18335]

Vasillisos, congratulations on your 400th post!

You're quite welcome for the explanation . To take this just a little further (Warren, you can move this if you see fit!), let's assume that Alexei did marry, and married a female who carried the hemophiliac allele. Under those circumstances, it is possible that they might have had a daughter who was hemophiliac....rare, but it happens. Look at it this way: Assume "X" is normal female chromosome and "x" is female carrier chromosome. "Y" is the male chromosome. Alexei was "xY" (a hemophiliac). A female carrier is "xX". Female offspring will be either "xX" (a carrier) or "xx" a hemophiliac. Male offspring will be either "xY" (hemophiliac), or "XY" (unaffected in any way).

Part of the irony here (for me, anyway) is that there was always so much pressure put on the brides of reigning sovereigns (or heirs to thrones) to produce a male heir. In actual fact, it is the father who determines the gender of the child, not the mother.

 

[wymanda]

Of course, Leopold, being male, would not have had a hemophiliac child, since the gene comes from the maternal line. The same would have been true of Alexei, and the only caution would have been to select a wife who would not be a potential carrier.

That the disease was inherited through the mother was known at the time, so I agree that Alix would have likely looked for a suitable bride for Alexei from a Royal line demonstrated to be free of the defect.

I agree. Had Alexai married a Princess who was a carrier he could have produced the rarest of all haemophiliac's, a daughter. His sons could also have been haemophiliacs if they inherited the gene from their mother. The y cromosome that they got from their father would not have carried the gene.

 

[pamela18335]

Pamela,

Do you think this could explain all the ailments Alexandra complained of on a daily basis? I had read that the royal dentists paid her daily visits at Tsarskoe Selo.

Vasillisos, I suspect that what Alix suffered from was Anxiety Disorder. It would explain her headaches, her heart palpitations, her shyness in public and a host of other things.

Look at what Wikipedia has to say about Social Anxiety Disorder:

"Social anxiety disorder (SAD; also known as social phobia) describes an intense fear of negative public scrutiny or of public embarrassment or humiliation. This fear can be specific to particular social situations (such as public speaking) or, more typically, is experienced in most (or all) social interactions. Social anxiety often manifests specific physical symptoms, including blushing, sweating, and difficulty speaking. Like with all phobic disorders, those suffering from social anxiety often will attempt to avoid the source of their anxiety; in the case of social anxiety this is particularly problematic, and in severe cases can lead to complete social isolation."

The understanding of Anxiety disorder was slim to none in Alix's time. It was often simply described as "nerves" and was thought to be strictly a woman's issue. And ~horrors!~ if it was thought or rumored that Alix was being treated by a psychiatrist. As it was, how many times have you read that some considered her to be mentally ill?

Of course, all of this was only compounded when Alexei was found to have hemophilia.

Just my own thoughts, of course, but it makes me see Alix in a somewhat different light than most, and to have a good deal of sympathy for her.

 

[Vasillisos Markos]

Oh, I agree Alix suffered from anxiety disorders. Countless biographies detail how she would blush and her skin would blotch when in public or when being addressed by people in public. She was no doubt shy in these settings and as Empress, such an anxiety would be magnified a thousandfold.

But besides that, how about her complaint about leg pain and her teeth? Alix suffered injuries to her legs when she was young--could residual pain there be linked to being a carrier of the hemophilia gene?

 

[snowflower]

Oh, I agree Alix suffered from anxiety disorders. Countless biographies detail how she would blush and her skin would blotch when in public or when being addressed by people in public. She was no doubt shy in these settings and as Empress, such an anxiety would be magnified a thousandfold.

But besides that, how about her complaint about leg pain and her teeth? Alix suffered injuries to her legs when she was young--could residual pain there be linked to being a carrier of the hemophilia gene?

Ι understand that the leg injuries she suffered when she was a kid were some deep cuts from glass, when she was playing in a garden . My guess is that she suffered some injuries in her leg nerves and that the weight she had to carry during 5 pregnacies worsened those old wounds. I don't believe that that ailment was also imaginary.

 

[Grandduchess24]

Something about OTMA seeing the dentist and having a bleeding problem made them likely carriers of the hemophilia gene and was Aleksey going to possibly marry princess Elisabeth of Greece and Denmark?