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  #81  
Old 05-28-2008, 01:56 AM
Aristocracy
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Elspeth View Post
The actual reason is what it is, and if they haven't chosen to divulge the reasons then we don't know what they are. Your assertion that there are only two possible reasons doesn't necessarily make it so. Their reason might be one of your two, or it might be something else that none of us have thought of. We don't know.

Either one does a DNA test of human skeletal remains for the purposes of identification... or one does a DNA test of human skeletal remains looking for possible genetic evidence of disease.

What other possibilities can there be?

Cloning, perhaps?

JK
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  #82  
Old 05-28-2008, 10:34 AM
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As I said, their reasons are what they are. That we can only think of some reasons doesn't mean that the scientists themselves are restricted to those reasons. They do, after all, know a lot more about their line of work than we do.
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  #83  
Old 05-28-2008, 02:43 PM
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Originally Posted by Elspeth View Post
As I said, their reasons are what they are. That we can only think of some reasons doesn't mean that the scientists themselves are restricted to those reasons. They do, after all, know a lot more about their line of work than we do.

There is one other possible reason for these tests, but that reason has nothing to do with DNA.

That reason is one of politics, as it has now been demonstrated... at least in part... by these latest news reports from today's (May, 28, 2008) Interfax...

Please see:
1/ Interfax-Religion
... and...
2/ Interfax-Religion

JK
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  #84  
Old 05-28-2008, 03:34 PM
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The scientists' reasons are their own. I wonder how they'd feel if someone informed them that the only reasons they were allowed to have were the ones listed by people on discussions boards.
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  #85  
Old 05-28-2008, 03:36 PM
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What politicians would benifit from the bodies being identified as the missing Romanovs (or not)? Such a subject must surely be too trivial in todays politics to have any impact.
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  #86  
Old 05-28-2008, 03:57 PM
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Originally Posted by Elspeth View Post
The scientists' reasons are their own. I wonder how they'd feel if someone informed them that the only reasons they were allowed to have were the ones listed by people on discussions boards.
It is not a question who should or should not decide what reasons there might be for any tests that need to be done. Who decides is not the issue here.

It's only a very simple question of the most basic points of logic. There can only be a very limited number of possible explanations for the way that the investigation is now proceeding.

JK
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  #87  
Old 05-28-2008, 11:38 PM
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Originally Posted by Marengo View Post
What politicians would benifit from the bodies being identified as the missing Romanovs (or not)? Such a subject must surely be too trivial in todays politics to have any impact.
I agree completely! Why in the world would anyone lie, fake, falsify, or cover up? No one could possibly care, or benefit from doing that. The whole idea that there is something crooked and sneaky going on is outrageous and unfounded. Several international news services have reported that the remains are those of the children. Are they lying? Does anyone really believe if there weren't real evidence that such reputable sources would have relayed it? CBS, CNN, and the BBC are hardly the National Enquirer! The only reason this is taking so long and being tested in so many places is to, ironically, try to avoid the very thing that's happening here- over thinking questioning and conspiracy theories. They want their work to be so conclusive that this type of speculation will stop once and for all. Unfortunately in his excitement, the Russian official announced it to the press before the scientists were ready with their peer reviewed results, leading to the very type of talk they had hoped to prevent. That is all there is to it. No one is plotting anything, no one cares a thing about any of the claimants anymore and no one is hiding any secrets. Why in the world would anyone do that? Actually, finding out a Romanov had survived would be a lot more exciting than saying they didn't if they did. That would be a story for the ages, and make Russia famous! If they had been real it would be a much bigger story so they would never hide that. But sadly in reality though, there were no survivors, and we just need to account for all these bodies out of respect for the victims.
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  #88  
Old 05-29-2008, 12:50 AM
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Originally Posted by OlgaNikolaievna View Post
I agree completely! Why in the world would anyone lie, fake, falsify, or cover up? No one could possibly care, or benefit from doing that. The whole idea that there is something crooked and sneaky going on is outrageous and unfounded. Several international news services have reported that the remains are those of the children. Are they lying? Does anyone really believe if there weren't real evidence that such reputable sources would have relayed it? CBS, CNN, and the BBC are hardly the National Enquirer! The only reason this is taking so long and being tested in so many places is to, ironically, try to avoid the very thing that's happening here- over thinking questioning and conspiracy theories. They want their work to be so conclusive that this type of speculation will stop once and for all. Unfortunately in his excitement, the Russian official announced it to the press before the scientists were ready with their peer reviewed results, leading to the very type of talk they had hoped to prevent. That is all there is to it. No one is plotting anything, no one cares a thing about any of the claimants anymore and no one is hiding any secrets. Why in the world would anyone do that? Actually, finding out a Romanov had survived would be a lot more exciting than saying they didn't if they did. That would be a story for the ages, and make Russia famous! If they had been real it would be a much bigger story so they would never hide that. But sadly in reality though, there were no survivors, and we just need to account for all these bodies out of respect for the victims.
It won't, of course. There's no amount of evidence that'll convince determined conspiracy theorists. A depressingly large number of Americans still don't believe that NASA sent men to the Moon and are sure the lunar landings are some vast government cover-up.
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  #89  
Old 05-29-2008, 06:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by J Kendrick View Post
There is one other possible reason for these tests, but that reason has nothing to do with DNA.

That reason is one of politics, as it has now been demonstrated... at least in part... by these latest news reports from today's (May, 28, 2008) Interfax...

Please see:
1/ Interfax-Religion
... and...
2/ Interfax-Religion
[my bolding]
I assumed these two links would have some relevance to the thread topic. Unfortunately not.

This is the second paragraph from no 1:

Discrediting image of Nicholas II is still a part of propagandistic war led against Russia by some forces in the West. That's why the West with the assistance of some homebred playwrights go on replicating tons of slanderous trash pretending to be a new "biography" of Nicholas II".

No 2 is headed "Killers of last Russian Tsar must be named - senior Russian priest"

I can't see any connection whatsoever between the current efforts to identify human remains and "discrediting the image of Nicholas II" or "Killers must be named".
.
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  #90  
Old 05-29-2008, 12:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OlgaNikolaievna View Post
I agree completely! Why in the world would anyone lie, fake, falsify, or cover up? No one could possibly care, or benefit from doing that. The whole idea that there is something crooked and sneaky going on is outrageous and unfounded.
If I remember correctly, there has been talk about (and I forget the term used) taking back into the Russian community the Romanovs and possibly returning what the Bolsheviks stole from them, which would include everything but the state lands and jewels. Also, this legal maneuver would make it possible for the Russians to set up a royal throne, again, which would bring in a great deal of tourist money like it does in England. And this has sparked interest from the top to the lowest black market leader.

Quote:
Several international news services have reported that the remains are those of the children. Are they lying? Does anyone really believe if there weren't real evidence that such reputable sources would have relayed it? CBS, CNN, and the BBC are hardly the National Enquirer!
No, the articles and announcements by western news agencies are not lying when they are merely repeating what the Russians are tellings them. Nor are they doing their homework which is to make sure they aren't being feed "disinformation" either.

I doubt that most news broadcasting writers here in the US have any kind of historical background on Russia let alone the execution of Nicholas II and the others. And the finding of two pits with 40 fragments of bones and being told that they are the missing children of Nicholas II seems highly possible and they'd have no reason to even suspect that the remains might not be Alexei or Marie. Why would they? They wouldn't. So, the story to the uneducated news person is closed. Plus, it's a fact: They would hardly care about the matching of DNA/ mtDNA.... why? Details are boring and most people don't know enough to bother about this part of the story.

Meanwhile, some of us who know the story and know about Dr. Gill and Dr. Maples, etc. etc. etc., are unsure of what's actually happening.

According to some of the articles, the Orthodox Church has it's own doubts and they know everything about the characters of the Bolsheviks who later became known as the communists, and right up to the present day politicians [elected or and the unelected]. Perhaps this is what JK was meaning to show in the last two articles he's asks us to read.

Quote:
The only reason this is taking so long and being tested in so many places is to, ironically, try to avoid the very thing that's happening here- over thinking questioning and conspiracy theories. They want their work to be so conclusive that this type of speculation will stop once and for all. Unfortunately in his excitement, the Russian official announced it to the press before the scientists were ready with their peer reviewed results, leading to the very type of talk they had hoped to prevent. That is all there is to it. No one is plotting anything, no one cares a thing about any of the claimants anymore and no one is hiding any secrets. Why in the world would anyone do that? Actually, finding out a Romanov had survived would be a lot more exciting than saying they didn't if they did. That would be a story for the ages, and make Russia famous! If they had been real it would be a much bigger story so they would never hide that. But sadly in reality though, there were no survivors, and we just need to account for all these bodies out of respect for the victims.
Yes, it's quite true, the scientists are having to prove the fragments are not just Romanov, they need to prove they did find DNA and the that the mtDNA matches Alexandra AND that the male was hemophiliac AND that the female bones weren't planted and merely extra bones taken from the mass grave and placed into the pit later in order to end the tale that GD Anastasia escaped.

If it was impossible for survivors, then there never would have been a trial in Germany in which a woman, known as Anna Anderson, could have tried to prove she was GD Anastasia. Although I don't believe AA as GD Anastasia, I can not just sweep the fact that the German court gave AA permission to go back into court and bring about a new trial to prove she was GD Anastasia.
This means to me that the German court believed it was possible for someone, one being GD Anastasia, to have survived the bullets of the Bolsheviks on the night of 17 July 1918 in the Ipatiev House in Ekaterinburg.

It is easy for many of you reading this to think it impossible for anyone to have escaped but the Germans understood the character of those who claimed to have killed all eleven. And, the German court, nor I, have swallowed hook, line and sinker what Yurovsky and the others have testified as being the truth.

I have never doubted that Lenin sent his old pal Yurovsky to Ekaterinburg with one sole purpose and that was to finally get his revenge which was accomplished when Nicholas II was executed. The other deaths was just icing on his cake presented to Lenin and his followers.

Lenin wasn't alone. Stalin on down to Kudrin sought revenge.

The Bolsheviki/communists didn't stop start nor stop with the execution of Nicholas II. No one knows how many humans were slaughtered or starved to death all because of this terrible need of revenge. It's estimated that 20 million died from the results of Lenin's and Stalin's direct or indirect orders. They had so much anger and hatred they even killed chickens if they had been in the coup owned by a "kulack"....

To reveal this madness to the masses that their "beloved" leaders (Lenin, Stalin and others) constructed the foundation of their new Russian world on the bodies of millions of innocent people isn't something even the modern politician care to do.... The Bolshvik/communist holocaust would over shadow the holocausts of all the countries, including the Nazi horror, in everyone's history books forever.

Now, I ask you, how can you tell me there isn't anything political about the deaths of the Romanovs, 20 million other Russians, and all those missing bodies of not just two missing children but the thousands and thousands of other innoscent victims not yet found in other mass graves?


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  #91  
Old 05-29-2008, 06:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Warren View Post
I assumed these two links would have some relevance to the thread topic. Unfortunately not.

This is the second paragraph from no 1:

Discrediting image of Nicholas II is still a part of propagandistic war led against Russia by some forces in the West. That's why the West with the assistance of some homebred playwrights go on replicating tons of slanderous trash pretending to be a new "biography" of Nicholas II".

No 2 is headed "Killers of last Russian Tsar must be named - senior Russian priest"

I can't see any connection whatsoever between the current efforts to identify human remains and "discrediting the image of Nicholas II" or "Killers must be named".
.

First, we have a known great-grandson of one of the three other men that were murdered alongside Nicholas who is now urging the Russian people... for the good of their own country... to rethink their views of the last Tsar...

and then... on top of that...

Here we now also have the Russian Orthodox Church... actually calling for an inquiry that would finally determine, once and for all, who it really was that had given the orders to kill the Tsar and his family....*and*... also calling for a proper legal qualification and political assessment of the murders.

Does nobody yet realize how huge a news story this really is?

The Orthodox Church?... After ninety long years?.... Now making the very first official call ever for a proper inquiry that would finally determine who actually gave the order to pull the trigger?

... and nobody sees anything political in that?... and do they not realize that none of this would now be happening at all... if it wasn't for the fact that this latest DNA investigation has single-handedly managed to bring these topics of both Nicholas II's history as a Tsar and of the brutality of his murder into the Russian headlines again?

And in response to OlgaNikolaievna:

Quote:
Originally Posted by OlgaNikolaievna View Post
Does anyone really believe if there weren't real evidence that such reputable sources would have relayed it? CBS, CNN, and the BBC are hardly the National Enquirer!
The Networks that you have named here did not have their own reporters at the event in question. They were only reporting what they had been told second-hand by the Russian news services who were only passing on the still unconfirmed claims of Ekaterinburg Governor Edvard Rossel.... and Mr. Rossel was only claiming to reporters that he had been told by somebody else who, in turn, had been told by somebody else, which means... in fact... that it is... in reality... nothing more than hearsay.

The very next day after Gov. Rossel's claims had hit the headlines, the director of SEARCH (Scientific Expedition to Account for the Romanov Children) Peter Sarandinaki had made the deliberate point of issuing a news release that says very clearly that Gov. Edvard Rossel's statements to the media were only Mr. Rossel's personal "belief"... and that they cannot be confirmed.

But, of course, nobody ever bothered to report that part of the story.


Quote:
Originally Posted by OlgaNikolaievna View Post
Unfortunately in his excitement, the Russian official announced it to the press before the scientists were ready with their peer reviewed results, leading to the very type of talk they had hoped to prevent. That is all there is to it.
You do, of course, realize that the particular "Russian official" of which you speak here is the very same Russian gentleman who had been predicting to all who would listen back in 1997 that the bones of Nicholas II were to be given their formal burial in Ekaterinburg....

... and we all know how that ended...

JK
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  #92  
Old 05-29-2008, 08:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by J Kendrick View Post
And in response to OlgaNikolaievna:



The Networks that you have named here did not have their own reporters at the event in question. They were only reporting what they had been told second-hand by the Russian news services who were only passing on the still unconfirmed claims of Ekaterinburg Governor Edvard Rossel.... and Mr. Rossel was only claiming to reporters that he had been told by somebody else who, in turn, had been told by somebody else, which means... in fact... that it is... in reality... nothing more than hearsay.

The very next day after Gov. Rossels' claims had hit the headlines, the director of SEARCH (Scientific Expedition to Account for the Romanov Children) Peter Sarandinaki had made the deliberate point of issuing a news release that says very clearly that Gov. Edvard Rossel's statements to the media were only Mr. Rossel's personal "belief"... and that they cannot be confirmed.

But, of course, nobody ever bothered to report that part of the story.



Actually what the SEARCH foundation said was nothing of the kind, but exactly what I said, that they were going to wait until all the labs were finished before they announced any results. Press Release This is in no way a denial or a statement that the Russian official was 'wrong' or it was only his 'opinion.' He had indeed been told the results of the first two labs and they were indeed that the remains were those of the royal children however as was said before the scientists want to wait until everything is wrapped up before making an official statement. This all still seems to be pointing in the direction that some of you think the Russians are intentionally lying and faking for some ulterior motive. I do not believe that, but luckily we have labs from other places in the world working on it too since some of you will refuse to believe the Russians.
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  #93  
Old 05-30-2008, 12:16 AM
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Originally Posted by J Kendrick View Post
First, we have a known great-grandson of one of the three other men that were murdered alongside Nicholas who is now urging the Russian people... for the good of their own country... to rethink their views of the last Tsar...
What on earth has "urging the Russian people...to rethink their views of the last Tsar" got to do with the current efforts by various scientists to identify skeletal remains?
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  #94  
Old 05-30-2008, 02:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Warren View Post
What on earth has "urging the Russian people...to rethink their views of the last Tsar" got to do with the current efforts by various scientists to identify skeletal remains?
Simple. The one would not now exist without the other.

If no one had found any bone fragments last summer... if no one was now testing any skeletal remains that are suspected of belonging to any of the missing Romanovs... then no one would now be discussing such things.

JK
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  #95  
Old 05-30-2008, 04:14 AM
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They may well be discussing a "rethinking" of their views of the Tsar in Russia, but this thread is about "New Information on Two Pits Found July 2007".
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Old 05-30-2008, 05:02 AM
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In the absence of further news concerning the progress of the scientific investigation/analysis of the remains found in July 2007, the thread has veered off into areas which have no relevance to the topic.

Rather than be sidetracked into irrelevant discussions of Russian attitudes towards Tsar Nicholas, or Orthodox Church calls for an enquiry into who gave the orders to kill the Imperial Family, or a repetition of the crimes of the Soviet regime, as from now anything not strictly pertaining to the thread topic will be deleted.

If members wish to discuss 'Russian attitudes to Nicholas II' or 'The position of the Church on the Imperial Family' (for example), please feel free to start threads on those topics in the mainstream Russian forum. The 'Questions of Identity' subforum is not the place for them.

Until there is something concrete to report on the current investigation, members are encouraged to exercise patience.
Further conjectures presented as "fact", speculations and wild conspiracy theories will be deleted.

If members require clarification of the above, please do so by PM to any of the site Administrators: Avalon, Elspeth, Empress, Mandy, Marengo, Norwegianne or myself.

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  #97  
Old 06-02-2008, 02:53 PM
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While today's news report from Interfax (June 2, 2008) does now tell us that the testing is likely to be finished by the end of this month, it still does not give us any hint at all as to when those final results will actually be made public.

See:
Interfax-Religion

JK

From Interfax:
02 June 2008, 15:38
Russian, foreign experts to finally assess study of "royal remains"

Yekaterinburg, June 2, Interfax - The study of remains that could prove to be those of Alexey and Maria, the children of the last Russian tsar Nicholas II, is to be finished in late June, said Nikolay Nevolin, the head of the Sverdlovsk regional forensic medical bureau.

"I think the examination of the bones will be completed in late June and the results obtained will be handed to renowned experts in Russia and abroad, who did not participate in the laboratory analyses," Nevolin told Interfax on Monday.

These experts will state their opinion on the laboratory tests made, he said............
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  #98  
Old 06-11-2008, 11:44 PM
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Who are the experts that will be analyzing the case, do you know John? Is Peter Gill involved, or will he be?
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  #99  
Old 06-21-2008, 03:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Elspeth View Post
The actual reason is what it is, and if they haven't chosen to divulge the reasons then we don't know what they are. Your assertion that there are only two possible reasons doesn't necessarily make it so. Their reason might be one of your two, or it might be something else that none of us have thought of. We don't know.

Three weeks on... We certainly do know now what the reason is for their now having turned to a re-examination of the original Ekaterinburg remains.

The answer has been made clear with the Interfax news report of Wednesday, June 18th:

"An investigation that involves spotting areas in DNA that are responsible for the development of hemophilia has not been finished yet," Nikolay Nevolin, head of the Sverdlovsk Regional Bureau of Forensic Medicine, told Interfax. "There will most likely be more investigations," he said."

...and in answer to Lexi's question...

According to Peter Sarandinaki of SEARCH, Peter Gill is to be called in at the end of the process to certify the results when the numerous labs involved have finally completed their tests.

JK
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  #100  
Old 06-24-2008, 10:02 AM
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V.Markin told about the tests of LAST YEAR

Interfax today:

Yekaterinburg remains are those of Tsar Nicholas II’s two children – Russian Prosecutor’s Office Investigative Committee

Moscow, June 24, Interfax - The tests carried out on the remains found near Yekaterinburg last year have been confirmed as those of the two members of the tsar's family executed by Bolsheviks in 1918 - Crown Prince Alexey and Grand Princess Maria.
A number of criminal medical and forensic tests have confirmed that the bodies of a boy aged between 12 and 14 and a young woman aged between 17 and 19 were burnt, spokesman for the Russian Prosecutor's Office Investigative Committee Vladimir Markin told Interfax on Tuesday.
"A historical examination is being led by Director of the Russian State Archive, doctor of historical sciences Sergey Mironenko as part of this criminal investigation. Among the experts are leading historians and archivists. Test results confirm the theory suggesting that these are the remains of the members of the tsar's family," Markin said.
The identification studies included the genetic tests carried out by experts from the Massachusetts University (U.S.), the U.S. Armed Forces DNA Identification Laboratory and the Institute for Forensic Medicine in Innsbruck, Austria.
"All researchers received the DNA of the male and female genes. Tests were carried out on the mitochondrial and nuclear DNA. The test results are being assessed by the investigators and will be unveiled in the second half of July this year," Markin said.
The investigation began after a team of Ural historians found a second grave with bone fragments of two people 70 kilometers from where other members of the Tsar Nicholas II's family were buried (the grave was uncovered in 1991), he said. The newly found remains were believed to be those of the emperor's son Alexey and daughter Maria who were shot dead in the Ipatyevs house in Yekaterinburg in the early hours of July 17, 1918.
http://www.interfax-religion.com/?act=news&div=4834
*********************************************************
My comment:
Please, pay attention to words «The tests carried out on the remains found near Yekaterinburg LAST YEAR have been confirmed as those». Thus, V.Markin in any way did not make comments on recent interview of N.Nevolin.
About tests of THIS YEAR he said that it “ will be unveiled in the second half of July this year
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