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  #201  
Old 01-09-2009, 11:01 AM
Aristocracy
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Anna was Franziska View Post
Whatever you heard of a 'third burial pit' was obviously an error.
The direct quote from Nikolai Nevolin, head of forensics for the Sverdlovsk Region, as reported by RIA Novosti: "When the second burial was found, it turned out that the overall weight of fragments was not enough for two people ...another small burial site, a hole with the same amount of bones could exist on the territory." Nevolin then said further that: "...tests would continue in the case of a new discovery."

That same continuing search for "another small burial site" has yet to be completed.

See: RIA Novosti - Russia - Experts suggest another Russian tsar family burial site exists
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  #202  
Old 01-09-2009, 12:30 PM
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I knew it was from a Russian news story, but as I said, the story is no longer valid. That story is dated April 8, 2008, and on Dec. 8, 2008, Nevolin declared the investigation finished, no more info needed, and the case is to be closed next week (Jan. 15, 2009)

Interfax-Religion

"The outcome of today's conference is historic. The matter has been brought to a close. It has been proved using advanced research methods that the remains belong to the Romanov family," he said.

"There is no point in continuing any examinations because the available results are sufficient for 100% identification," Nevolin said.


That is Nevolin's most recent statement, which therefore trumps the older one. It is apparent they feel they are finished with the matter.

As for the 'not enough for two people' statement, that could have been taken out of context, mistranslated, or perhaps they have since discovered through the forensic testing that that his idea of another burial pit was incorrect (note that in the April article he stated 'COULD exist', not that there was any proof or reason to believe this other than a guess) and there is no need to look anymore. He may have said in April 'tests would continue in case of a new discovery', but that is now a mute point since there was no 'new discovery'. They have publically stated no more testing is needed and they are closing the case! It is a shame that some comments are taken in ways never intended when used in grasping at straws desperation by those who refuse to give up belief in claimants.

I never thought there was anything strange about the small amount of fragments found in 2007, in fact, I was surprised they were able to find anything at all. It makes perfect sense that in 90 years of being in an acidic, soggy bog that whatever charred bones were originally put there would naturally deteriorate, dissolve and otherwise decompose. They were actually fortunate to recover as much as they did, and extract enough DNA from it to do the testing.

This leaves your 'third pit' story as overruled, pointless and now invalid. The lastest statements by Nevolin make it very clear, "the matter has been brought to a close", they have their historic conclusions, and it's over.
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  #203  
Old 01-09-2009, 04:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Anna was Franziska View Post
I knew it was from a Russian news story, but as I said, the story is no longer valid. That story is dated April 8, 2008,

European dating... day, month, year.

The story is dated the fourth of September, 2008. Your views do not change the facts of Nevolin's statement, which still remain unexplained.

"The overall weight of fragments was not enough for two people ...another small burial site, a hole with the same amount of bones could exist on the territory."
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  #204  
Old 01-09-2009, 04:19 PM
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April or September both predate December. As I tried to explain, clearly, obviously, nothing came of the 'third pit' theory/idea. The story even said 'could' exist, there was never anything definite or official about it. The easy answer is, there was nothing to it and the idea was abandoned and forgotten. Nevolin's last statement lets us know he is now satisfied with the way things have gone and believes no more work is necessary. What part of '"the matter has been brought to a close" do you not understand? He has stated they have all the information they need, no more investigating or testing will be done. That is Nevolin's final word. It's over.
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  #205  
Old 01-10-2009, 12:33 PM
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As much as AWF would like all of us to go away and never ask another question, some of us still have many questions. The missing bones from the mass grave as well as the two pits found July 07 have not been explained. Burning and sulfuric acid could not have been the reason, if we are to believe the eye witnesses as reported to us through the years. The American forensic scientists Dr. Maples and the one recently used and was shown in the National Geographic Special agree.

If indeed the scientists have managed to provide us with four DNA/mtDNA markers for four grand duchesses, there will remain questions, one being the problem with the missing bones from all the graves.

Since the official report hasn't been presented, we still don't know what will be said and what data the Russians will provide us. So, it's not a closed case for all concern. Will all of us be satisfied when the official annoucement occurs? I honestly do not know and cannot know until then.

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  #206  
Old 01-10-2009, 02:40 PM
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Quote:
If indeed the scientists have managed to provide us with four DNA/mtDNA markers for four grand duchesses, there will remain questions, one being the problem with the missing bones from all the graves.

Since the official report hasn't been presented, we still don't know what will be said and what data the Russians will provide us. So, it's not a closed case for all concern. Will all of us be satisfied when the official annoucement occurs? I honestly do not know and cannot know until then.
There is enough information that has already been proven and confirms that those are indeed the remains of Alexei. All the remains have been identified as those of the whole Imperial family. The scientists already explained many things to us about the bones. AWF, already gave out the proof that proves those remains are of the imperial family. She also gave out the name of the scientists that are doing the testings. There are many questions asked, because they are mainly from the people who still want to find some reason to deny the DNA tests, and continue with the survival stories and theories.
Many do continue to deny the DNA tests and make up reasons for the bones not being that of the imperial family. People said that those can be bones of some other unknown people.
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  #207  
Old 01-19-2009, 01:43 AM
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Posts dealing with the thwarted criminal investigation into the murder of the Imperial Family have been moved to the Nicholas and Alexandra thread.
Posts discussing the stance of Grand Duchess Maria and the Orthodox Church have been moved to the Grand Duchess Maria Vladimirovna thread.
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  #208  
Old 02-27-2009, 05:50 PM
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New Information published this week... Please see:

Researchers publish DNA identification of czar's children
http://www.genomeweb.com/sequencing/...ing-revolution
DNA analysis confirms Russian czar's entire family was murdered in 1918

But this still does not tell us why they are now searching for yet "another small hole with a similar amount of bones" ... whether or not they have yet found any genetic evidence at all of a suspected blood disorder... or why they are now said to be planning yet another conference meeting in March.

JK
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  #209  
Old 03-02-2009, 01:26 PM
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Thank you!

Quote:
But this still does not tell us why they are now searching for yet "another small hole with a similar amount of bones" ...
That was only one article several months ago.I don't believe it's an issue, or that anyone is going to do this. The officials have now stated no more investigation is needed.

Quote:
whether or not they have yet found any genetic evidence at all of a suspected blood disorder...
We know that they haven't, because they have already told us that they did not have enough usable sample to test for both DNA and the disease, so they had to choose the DNA, of course.

Quote:
or why they are now said to be planning yet another conference meeting in March.

JK
Perhaps they are waiting until all of the scientists' results are published so they can have one final conference on all the published results, and put an end to the whole thing at once.
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  #210  
Old 03-03-2009, 08:55 AM
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As the subject of Alexei and haemophilia has its own thread, posts continuing the argument here have been removed.
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  #211  
Old 03-03-2009, 11:41 AM
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No survivors in Russian Czar family murders

Neither Anastasia nor the czar's other children found a fairy tale ending

No survivors in Russian Czar family murders - LiveScience- msnbc.com
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  #212  
Old 03-04-2009, 09:05 AM
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Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences.
National Academy of Sciences

Genomic identification in the historical case of the Nicholas II royal family

Genetics:
  • Evgeny I. Rogaev,
  • Anastasia P. Grigorenko,
  • Yuri K. Moliaka,
  • Gulnaz Faskhutdinova,
  • Andrey Goltsov,
  • Arlene Lahti,
  • Curtis Hildebrandt,
  • Ellen L. W. Kittler,
  • and Irina Morozova
PNAS published online before print February 27, 2009, doi:10.1073/pnas.0811190106

Accurate unambiguous identification of ancient or historical specimens can potentially be achieved by DNA analysis. The controversy surrounding the fate of the last Russian Emperor, Nicholas II, and his family has persisted, in part, because the bodies of 2 children, Prince Alexei and 1 of his sisters, have not been found. A grave discovered in 1991 contained remains putatively identified as those of the Russian Royal family. However, not all family members were represented.

Here, we report the results of genomic analyses of new specimens, the human remains of 2 burned skeletons exhumed from a grave discovered in July 2007, and the results of a comprehensive genomic analysis of remains from the 1991 discovery. Additionally, ≈117 years old archival blood specimens from Nicholas II were obtained and genotyped, which provided critical material for the specific determination of individual identities and kinship identifications.

Results of genotypic analyses of damaged historical specimens were evaluated alongside samples from descendants of both paternal and maternal lineages of the European Royal families, and the results conclusively demonstrate that the recently found remains belong to children of Nicholas II: Prince Alexei and his sister. The results of our studies provide unequivocal evidence that the remains of Nicholas II and his entire family, including all 5 children, have been identified.

We demonstrate that convergent analysis of complete mitochondrial genome sequences combined with nuclear DNA profiles is an efficient and conclusive method for individual and kinship identification of specimens obtained from old historic relics.
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  #213  
Old 03-05-2009, 01:08 AM
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This one includes the markers for the whole family

http://www.pnas.org/content/suppl/20...11190106SI.pdf
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  #214  
Old 03-09-2009, 02:18 PM
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Here is the press release from Dr. Coble, I post it with his permission:



US, European Scientists Report Findings of the Two Missing Romanov Children


An international team of researchers confirm the identity of the Tsar’s two missing children using forensic DNA testing.

Forensic DNA testing of skeletal remains of two individuals discovered in a field outside of Yekaterinburg, Russia in 2007 belong to Crown Prince Alexei Romanov and one of his sisters, ending one of the greatest mysteries of the twentieth century. The study, is published March 11th in the online, open-access, peer-reviewed journal PLoS ONE.

On July 17, 1918 Tsar Nicholas II, his wife Alexandra, their five children, the family physician, and three loyal servants were murdered by their Bolshevik executioners to prevent an attempted rescue from the nearby White Russian Army, who were loyal to the Tsar. After a botched attempt to hide the remains in an abandoned mine shaft, the Bolsheviks first tried to cremate two of the children (those discovered in 2007) and then buried the remaining nine bodies in a mass grave (officially discovered in 1991).

Dr. Michael Coble from the Armed Forces DNA Identification Laboratory (AFDIL) in Rockville, Maryland, was invited by the Prosecutor’s Office of Russian Federation to conduct an independent investigation of the remains in October of 2007. Coble and Dr. Anthony Falsetti, of the University of Florida, traveled to Yekaterinburg in November of 2007 to examine the remains. “Of the 44 bone fragments and teeth present, it was possible to determine that at least two individuals were present – one female and one putative male,” said Falsetti, a co-author of the study.

Coble and Dr. Odile Loreille, lead authors of the publication, also requested that another independent laboratory be involved. Dr. Walther Parson at the Institute of Legal Medicine in Innsbruck, Austria conducted an independent analysis of the remains in the spring of 2008. “It is important in an investigation of this magnitude that independent, parallel studies are conducted to confirm the results” according to Dr. Parson. In addition to the remains from 2007, both laboratories were given skeletal material from the 1991 for comparison. Both laboratories then blindly sent their results to Dr. Peter Gill at the University of Strathclyde in Glasgow, Scotland, for an independent evaluation of the results. Dr. Gill led the first DNA investigation of the 1991 mass grave in 1993.

Scientists from both laboratories used a three-prong approach to confirm their findings. First, mitochondrial DNA testing was conducted to confirm the sequence of the 2007 remains to the sequence of Alexandra and a living maternal relative, HRH Prince Philip, Duke of Edinburgh. Next, using sensitive techniques to amplify low levels of DNA, the scientists were able to develop a full Y-chromosomal STR profile from one of the bone samples that had been identified as a putative male. When compared to the Y-STR results from a tooth of Tsar Nicholas II, the researchers found an exact match. A comparison to a living Romanov cousin yielded the same Y-STR profile. Finally, the researchers developed a complete 16-marker autosomal STR profile for each member of the Russian royal family from the 1991 grave and from the two individuals in the 2007 grave.

The results demonstrate the presence of a family group, and represent the most comprehensive examination of the Romanov remains to date. “Here we are able to give a full account of all of the Romanov family and can conclude that none of the family survived the execution in the early morning hours of July 17, 1918,” the scientists note in the paper.

In addition to the analysis of the skeletal remains, Coble also collaborated with the Sverdlovsk Regional Forensic Bureau Laboratory in Yekaterinburg to confirm their independent autosomal STR and Y-STR analysis of a blood stain on a shirt worn by Nicholas when he was a young man. On April 29, 1891 while touring the city of Otsu, Japan the Tsarevich Nicholas Romanov was attacked by a Japanese policeman during an attempted assassination. Nicholas survived the attack and the bloody shirt he had worn that day was returned to Russia as a relic of the attack. The results were completely concordant. “For the first time, there is now a link between the ante-mortem evidence DNA profile from Nicholas II to the post-mortem skeletal remains from the first grave discovered in 1991,” said Coble.

“It’s rewarding to finally conclude this mystery 16 years after the first analysis of the remains,” reported Dr. Gill.

###
PLEASE ADD THIS LINK TO THE PUBLISHED ARTICLE IN ONLINE VERSIONS OF YOUR REPORT: http://dx.plos.org/10.1371/journal.pone.0004838 (link will go live tommorrow)

CITATION: Coble MD, Loreille OM, Wadhams MJ, Edson SM, Maynard K, Meyer CE, Niederstätter H, Berger C, Berger B, Falsetti AB, Gill P, Parson W, Finelli LN (2009) Mystery Solved: The Identification of the Two Missing Romanov Children Using DNA Analysis. PLoS ONE
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  #215  
Old 03-10-2009, 11:31 PM
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The published article is now active online!

PLoS ONE: Mystery Solved: The Identification of the Two Missing Romanov Children Using DNA Analysis
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  #217  
Old 03-11-2009, 11:26 AM
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DNA proves Bolsheviks killed all of Russian czar's children - CNN.com
CNN finally listing the same

I'll bet there are still some out there insisting otherwise. I remember reading a book that claimed all 5 children survived and had photos of family reunions through the years. I wish I could find a copy of that book again just to see what all it claimed. It is sad to get this confirmation of what most of us have believed all along--no survivors.
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  #218  
Old 03-11-2009, 11:29 AM
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Thanks to Anna was Franziska, TRF members were able to read the report before it hit the news agencies.
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  #219  
Old 03-11-2009, 11:36 AM
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Thumbs up

Thank you! And a big thank you to Dr. Michael Coble!
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  #220  
Old 03-11-2009, 11:41 AM
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Thumbs up Yes! Thank you Anna was Franziska and TRF

Quote:
Originally Posted by Warren View Post
Thanks to Anna was Franziska, TRF members were able to read the report before it hit the news agencies.
A fine example of why I LOVE this site--facts, not only rumors and well versed opinions often backed with facts. Anna, I love your posts on other threads as well.
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