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  #121  
Old 07-25-2012, 04:53 PM
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Originally Posted by NGalitzine View Post
As I understand it, by family agreement, Prince Alexander is the heir. Not sure if he will use the Margrave titke.
There used to be an agreement but AFAIK Prince Albert did not agree to it. As he was the one to be the next heir after his elder brother, his opinion should count, shouldn't it?
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  #122  
Old 07-25-2012, 04:58 PM
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There used to be an agreement but AFAIK Prince Albert did not agree to it. As he was the one to be the next heir after his elder brother, his opinion should count, shouldn't it?
He agreed at first when the agreement was reached but later changed his mind.
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  #123  
Old 07-25-2012, 05:00 PM
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From Prince Alberts webpage at http://www.prinz-albert-von-sachsen.de/index2.html

Aus der Ehe Rüdigers mit Astrid Linke (1949-1989) stammen die drei Söhne Daniel (geboren am 23. Juni 1975), Arne (geboren am 7. März 1977) und Nils (geboren am 6. November 1978). Damit ist die Nachfolge im unmittelbaren Mannesstamm der Albertiner gesichert.

(About Prince Ruediger):

!From the marriage of Ruediger to Astrid Linke there is male issue: Daniel, Arne and Nils. Thus the succession of the Wettin Albertine line in direct male descent is secure. " He goes on to tell how good a father Ruediger is, how well eductated the sons and that the family now lives in Moritzburg on former Wettin-land.

That for me doesn't sound as if Prince Albert, the last dynast according to the ancient House laws and still alive, has embraced his nephew Alexander, who is a Wettin through the female line only.
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  #124  
Old 07-25-2012, 05:57 PM
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And yet another royal family will be divided with the Headship contested between two lines, just like Roumania, Italy, Two Siciles and the House of Bourbon. Shame.
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  #125  
Old 07-25-2012, 06:01 PM
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... doesn't sound as if Prince Albert, the last dynast according to the ancient House laws and still alive, has embraced his nephew Alexander, who is a Wettin through the female line only.
As has been previously stated, the fact is that Prince Albert did "embrace" his nephew as the heir in 1997 at the family meeting where all living dynasts gave their approbation to the decision of the Margrave. Whether Albert later switched his stance on the subject, as he seems to have done under the influence of his unequal wife, is another matter. Rudiger was hardly the ideal role model for his sons...he spent time in prison for tax evasion and also faced fraud charges at one point after posing as a psychologist though he did not have a license.

The Margrave had initially desired that the son of his sister Princess Mathilde would be his heir, but then Prince Johannes died tragically in 1987.
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  #126  
Old 07-25-2012, 07:33 PM
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It does seem silly for families to argue about thrones that ceased to exist nearly 100 years ago.
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  #127  
Old 07-26-2012, 03:01 AM
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A highly-informative obituary of the Margrave which also discusses at length the Saxon Succession:
Eurohistory: + Maria Emanuel of Saxony, The Margrave of Meißen (1926-2012)
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  #128  
Old 07-26-2012, 03:57 AM
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As has been previously stated, the fact is that Prince Albert did "embrace" his nephew as the heir in 1997 at the family meeting where all living dynasts gave their approbation to the decision of the Margrave. Whether Albert later switched his stance on the subject, as he seems to have done under the influence of his unequal wife, is another matter.
Was it also agrred at the Family meeting that Albert would be surpassed in favour of Alexander? As he was a dynast in 1997 should he not have followed hte Margrave and then in turn be followed by Alexander?
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  #129  
Old 07-26-2012, 01:27 PM
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Was it also agrred at the Family meeting that Albert would be surpassed in favour of Alexander? As he was a dynast in 1997 should he not have followed hte Margrave and then in turn be followed by Alexander?
I think so, too. And I have read somewhere (though quite some time ago) that Albert only agreed in 1997 on condition that he is first to inherit and then his brother's adopted heir. But when he changed his mind about Prince Ruediger (who already is the grandfather of a grandson), his brother tried to make sure that he would not get a chance to introduce Ruediger as his chosen heir in case he survived his brother.

The article mentioned above is very, very biased. It does not question eg the equality of Robert de Afif, whose sister has not been considered equal by the Hohenzollerns, when she married into that amily. So how come he is suddenly equal? especially as there is no real proof that I'm aware of of his noble ancestry in unbroken line.

Plus I believe it to be a bit unfortunated how the late Margrave married himself a non-noble name holder of the Anhalt-family (her mother was a commoner, too) while he does not acknowledge Pruediger because of the unnoble birth of his mother.

Fact is, AFAIK, that the equality of Alexander of Saxony-Gessaphe is as much in doubt as that of Ruediger of Saxony, but the last one is of male descent, while Prince Alexander is only of female descent. Albert, who is the last living dynast of the family whose ancestry is truly noble, should become the new Margrave and then select his own heir from those two men. (IMHO, of course).

And it doesn't matter IMHO that Alexander de Afifi is married to a princess of Bavaria....

It remains to be seen who will be accepted by the representatives of the FRG as the new Head of the House and thus as the member of the family who holds the potential restitution rights of the Wettins against the State.
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  #130  
Old 07-26-2012, 02:12 PM
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Originally Posted by Benjamin View Post
A highly-informative obituary of the Margrave which also discusses at length the Saxon Succession:
Eurohistory: + Maria Emanuel of Saxony, The Margrave of Meißen (1926-2012)
Which omits several facts, claims unproven facts and put a very positive view on some others. Not what I call reliable at all!

Eg the potential dementia of Prince Albert and the claim that he is manipulated by his unequal wife... as long as he is considered "geschäftsfähig" in German, he is capable of deciding for himself. And if he listens to his wife, so what?

Prince Alexander was not successful as advisor to the Saxonian government, there were quite some claims in papers he did not use public funds with the care or the results for which he had been granted the responsibility. This is unproven by a court as well, but it was written.

Prince Alexander does not like the people in Saxony and prefers to live in Mexico, as he just said in an interview published after the death of his adoptive father. Prince Ruediger OTOH lives and works in Saxony and is trying to bring new life into former holdings of the kings of Saxony at Moritzburg.

So it is not a question of character or the "right behaviour" - it is simply the question of the old House Laws and maybe there is even another dynast turning up when you follow the family tree far enough...
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  #131  
Old 07-26-2012, 03:11 PM
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Based on Article 6 and 7 of the Constitution of the Kingdom of Saxony from 1831 (the last fixed saxon law of sucession), Prince Albert is the rightfull heir of the saxon crown (§6 next agnatic descendant). His succesor is his nephew Alexander de Afif, because the marriage of the parents of Prince Rüdiger was morganatic. In §7 morganatic descendants, include agnatics, has no rights of sucession, the next relative of the king/pretender in female line are the rightfull heir.

http://www.infoseiten.slpb.de/filead...ssung_1831.pdf
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  #132  
Old 07-26-2012, 03:54 PM
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Originally Posted by Stefan View Post
Was it also agrred at the Family meeting that Albert would be surpassed in favour of Alexander? As he was a dynast in 1997 should he not have followed hte Margrave and then in turn be followed by Alexander?
The family conclave agreed that Prince Alexander would be the Margrave's direct heir. For this reason Maria Emanuel legally adopted Alexander in 1999 so that the latter and his children would bear the surname "Prinz(essin) von Sachsen Herzog(in) zu Sachsen."

House Laws of the kingdom of Saxony
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  #133  
Old 07-26-2012, 04:10 PM
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Originally Posted by Benjamin View Post
The family conclave agreed that Prince Alexander would be the Margrave's direct heir. For this reason Maria Emanuel legally adopted Alexander in 1999 so that the latter and his children would bear the surname "Prinz(essin) von Sachsen Herzog(in) zu Sachsen."

House Laws of the kingdom of Saxony
Thanks. So Prince Albert agreed that he would be surpassed in favour of Prince Alexander in 1997.
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  #134  
Old 07-26-2012, 04:15 PM
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Originally Posted by Benjamin View Post
The family conclave agreed that Prince Alexander would be the Margrave's direct heir. For this reason Maria Emanuel legally adopted Alexander in 1999 so that the latter and his children would bear the surname "Prinz(essin) von Sachsen Herzog(in) zu Sachsen."

House Laws of the kingdom of Saxony
From above link:

"Application of strict equality requirements leaves only the margrave and his brother as males of the Saxon house.

Semi-salic law would lead to either sister of the margrave; but there are no lines issued from them that satisfy the equality requirements, hence the headship of the house would pass to the lines issued from the margrave's paternal aunts.

These aunts are Margarete (1900-62) married to prince Friedrich of Hohenzollern, Maria Alix (1901-90) married to prince Franz Joseph of Hohenzollern-Emden, twin brother of the latter, and Anna (1903-76) married to Joseph of Habsburg-Lorraine, palatine of Hungary, all of whom had children. Margarete being the eldest, the heir would be Friedrich Wilhelm of Hohenzollern-Sigmaringen (b. 1924), failing him his son Karl Friedrich (b. 1952).

If one discards equality requirements completely (but maintains semi-Salic law), then Timo's son Rüdiger and his line will succeed at the next generation, no matter which of the margrave or his brother survives last."

So you agree it's as I stated it: if the equality requirement is discarded, then prince Ruediger is the heir, if not, then it's a prince of Hohenzollern. In any case, it is not "Prince" Alexander.
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  #135  
Old 07-26-2012, 09:28 PM
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Originally Posted by Kataryn View Post
From above link:

"Application of strict equality requirements leaves only the margrave and his brother as males of the Saxon house.
However, the Margrave deemed that the Afifs (as Princes of Gessaphe) were equal marriage partners and that Alexander was his immediate heir. This the Margrave was entitled to do. Furthermore, all of the living male-line dynasts affirmed the decision of the Margrave.

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Semi-salic law would lead to either sister of the margrave; but there are no lines issued from them that satisfy the equality requirements, hence the headship of the house would pass to the lines issued from the margrave's paternal aunts.
Interesting how you commented that the first link I posted is unreliable as it came to the conclusion that Prince Alexander is now Margrave of Meissen while you expressed no such reservations about the reliability of the second link I posted, presumably because it calls into question the equality of the Afifs (a family which the Margrave, as Head of House, decided did indeed meet the equality requirement).

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These aunts are Margarete (1900-62) married to prince Friedrich of Hohenzollern, Maria Alix (1901-90) married to prince Franz Joseph of Hohenzollern-Emden, twin brother of the latter, and Anna (1903-76) married to Joseph of Habsburg-Lorraine, palatine of Hungary, all of whom had children. Margarete being the eldest, the heir would be Friedrich Wilhelm of Hohenzollern-Sigmaringen (b. 1924), failing him his son Karl Friedrich (b. 1952).
Thank you for copying and pasting something that I had already read at the original link.

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If one discards equality requirements completely (but maintains semi-Salic law), then Timo's son Rüdiger and his line will succeed at the next generation, no matter which of the margrave or his brother survives last."
But one cannot discard the equality requirement. Prince Timo contracted three unequal marriages. In doing so he guaranteed that his son Rudiger and daughter Iris, the issue of his first union, have as their surname "Prinz(essin) von Sachsen Herzog(in) zu Sachsen" but that they do not possess and can never possess the actual royal title of IKH Prinz(essin) von Sachsen Herzog(in) zu Sachsen as they are morganatic descendants of the Royal House with zero chance of ever having succession rights.

Conversely, the late Margrave ruled that the marriage of Princess Maria Anna was equal, all the male-line Saxon dynasts affirmed his decision, and, therefore, Maria Emanuel was succeeded as Head of House by his adopted son Prince Alexander of Saxony, eldest son of Princess Maria Anna.

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So you agree it's as I stated it: if the equality requirement is discarded, then prince Ruediger is the heir, if not, then it's a prince of Hohenzollern. In any case, it is not "Prince" Alexander.
Actually, I do not agree that it is as you stated nor do I agree with the interpretation of the House Laws given in the second link I posted.

I obviously agree with the interpretation of the Saxon House Laws given by the late Margrave of Meissen as laid out in the first link I posted. I.e. that Prince Alexander of Saxony is the new Head of House.
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  #136  
Old 07-26-2012, 09:47 PM
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Which omits several facts, claims unproven facts and put a very positive view on some others. Not what I call reliable at all!
Of course, you are perfectly entitled to your opinion. But as the author personally knows all of the persons involved, and I personally know the author, I am inclined to accept his presentation of their personalities/characters.

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Eg the potential dementia of Prince Albert and the claim that he is manipulated by his unequal wife... as long as he is considered "geschäftsfähig" in German, he is capable of deciding for himself. And if he listens to his wife, so what?
Where does the author say that Prince Albert possibly suffers from dementia? Nowhere.

The author says that Albert suffers from a degenerative disease that has affected his ability to speak. This does not ipso facto mean that Prince Albert has dementia.

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Prince Alexander was not successful as advisor to the Saxonian government, there were quite some claims in papers he did not use public funds with the care or the results for which he had been granted the responsibility. This is unproven by a court as well, but it was written.

Prince Alexander does not like the people in Saxony and prefers to live in Mexico, as he just said in an interview published after the death of his adoptive father. Prince Ruediger OTOH lives and works in Saxony and is trying to bring new life into former holdings of the kings of Saxony at Moritzburg.
It seems as though you are doing your upmost to shed IKH Prinz Alexander von Sachsen in a negative light while presenting Rudiger Prinz von Sachsen in a much better light. You say that these accusations against Prince Alexander (of which I have never heard) were never proven, let alone proven to be valid in a court of law. This means that they are simply rumours. Thank you for spreading them and thus greatly enhancing the credibility of your own position in this discussion.

On the other hand, the accusations against Rudiger of tax evasion and posing as a doctor while in reality having no license at all were found to be true by the courts and Rudiger served time in jail for the crimes of which he was found guilty.

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So it is not a question of character or the "right behaviour" - it is simply the question of the old House Laws and maybe there is even another dynast turning up when you follow the family tree far enough...
Completely agree with you...even if HRH Prince Alexander of Saxony was a convicted criminal and a person of questionable moral character (which he is not...though perhaps he has a cousin Rudiger who is?), then he would still have become the new Head of the Saxon Royal House upon the death of his uncle (for reasons his uncle Maria Emanuel made perfectly clear and which have been elaborated upon ad nauseum in this thread).
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  #137  
Old 07-26-2012, 10:16 PM
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I think so, too. And I have read somewhere (though quite some time ago) that Albert only agreed in 1997 on condition that he is first to inherit and then his brother's adopted heir. But when he changed his mind about Prince Ruediger (who already is the grandfather of a grandson), his brother tried to make sure that he would not get a chance to introduce Ruediger as his chosen heir in case he survived his brother.
As I have already stated, Prince Albert, as well as Princes Dedo and Gero and the sisters of Maria Emanuel, all agreed to the pact which stated that Prince Alexander was the next in line to inherit the headship of the Saxon Royal House (thus superseding Albert...which Albert consented to).

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The article mentioned above is very, very biased. It does not question eg the equality of Robert de Afif, whose sister has not been considered equal by the Hohenzollerns, when she married into that amily. So how come he is suddenly equal? especially as there is no real proof that I'm aware of of his noble ancestry in unbroken line.
Thank you for your opinion regarding the bias of the article.

The article does not question the equality of the Afifs because the Margrave, as Head of the Royal House of Saxony, ruled that as Princes of Gessaphe the Afifs were equal and thus suitable marriage partners for members of his House. The position of the Head of the Princely House of Hohenzollern is irrelevant.

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Plus I believe it to be a bit unfortunated how the late Margrave married himself a non-noble name holder of the Anhalt-family (her mother was a commoner, too) while he does not acknowledge Pruediger because of the unnoble birth of his mother.
The Head of the Ducal House of Anhalt does not share your opinion.
Markgräfin Anastasia Luise von Meissen | Anhalt-Askanien

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Fact is, AFAIK, that the equality of Alexander of Saxony-Gessaphe is as much in doubt as that of Ruediger of Saxony, but the last one is of male descent, while Prince Alexander is only of female descent. Albert, who is the last living dynast of the family whose ancestry is truly noble, should become the new Margrave and then select his own heir from those two men. (IMHO, of course).
The fact that Rudiger is a descendant in the male-line has no bearing on the situation as he always has been and always will be a morganaut. The late Margrave (along with all the male-line dynasts) were all in agreement that Prince Alexander of Saxony (a dynast in the female-line due to the equal marriage of his mother) was to become Head of House after Maria Emanuel passed away.

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And it doesn't matter IMHO that Alexander de Afifi is married to a princess of Bavaria....
It does matter in the context that if Prince Alexander of Saxony had not married Princess Gisela of Bavaria (or another woman of equal birth), then his children would not be Saxon dynasts as they would be the issue of a morganatic union (like, for instance, Rudiger Prinz von Sachsen ).

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It remains to be seen who will be accepted by the representatives of the FRG as the new Head of the House and thus as the member of the family who holds the potential restitution rights of the Wettins against the State.
The state has already given some reparations to the Wettins and the media has indicated that these were divided between all the descendants of the last King of Saxony, regardless of their dynastic position (or lack thereof).
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  #138  
Old 07-27-2012, 02:08 AM
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My problem with your argumentation is that obviously most people concerned did not follow their own House Laws or simply adapted the Laws when it pleased them.

Prince Timo married a girl form the people, daughter of a butcher and could do nothing to make his family acknowledge his children, so they had to grow up with their maternal grandparents who were not capable to give them a proper education and only learned when they turned 18 from which family they derived. Both were born from a legitimate marriage according to the laws of the country whose nationality they possess.

OTOH the rich Miss Jungmeier (of a commoner family of manufacturers in Bavaria) was accepted as bride of of a prince without problems... And her daughter was of course a "real" princess.... Plus Eduard of Anhalt has had no qualms to change the Ascanian House Laws as he pleased, being married himself to a commoner and declaing his eldest daughter as heir to the Headship of the Ascanians, a daughter married herself to a commoner. Some dynasts!

The same thing for the rich lebanese businessman Robert de Afif - he was declared equal. Why? who knows...

So it's sheer randomness or even arbitrariness of the Margrave of Meissen IMHO and not following an ancient tradition - as these decisions are based on an old concept and not the current laws of Germany, they should at least completely adhere to the old concept of House Laws or to the laws of the country of Saxony /Germany.

In my opinion you can't have it both ways, do what you personally like best and declare that this is the only legitimate way. Because it's not.
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  #139  
Old 07-27-2012, 12:53 PM
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Royal Musings: war over the Saxon Succession
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Old 07-27-2012, 01:59 PM
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My problem with your argumentation is that obviously most people concerned did not follow their own House Laws or simply adapted the Laws when it pleased them.
Well, then your problem is with the Heads of the Houses themselves, is it not? Because I am merely stating what they have previously decided.

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Prince Timo married a girl form the people, daughter of a butcher and could do nothing to make his family acknowledge his children, so they had to grow up with their maternal grandparents who were not capable to give them a proper education and only learned when they turned 18 from which family they derived. Both were born from a legitimate marriage according to the laws of the country whose nationality they possess.
Prince Timo's children were raised by their mother's parents because their father found himself unable to take care of them after Margit's unexpected death. Sadly, Timo was not the most mentally stable person and did spend time in an asylum because of this. The fact that neither Timo's father nor his brothers had anything to do with Rudiger and Iris is not the fault of the immediate family of the late Margrave.

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OTOH the rich Miss Jungmeier (of a commoner family of manufacturers in Bavaria) was accepted as bride of of a prince without problems... And her daughter was of course a "real" princess.... Plus Eduard of Anhalt has had no qualms to change the Ascanian House Laws as he pleased, being married himself to a commoner and declaing his eldest daughter as heir to the Headship of the Ascanians, a daughter married herself to a commoner. Some dynasts!
Joachim Ernst, last duke of Anhalt, was the one who ruled that the marriage of Eugen and Anastasia was equal, not his successor Eduard.

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The same thing for the rich lebanese businessman Robert de Afif - he was declared equal. Why? who knows...
The marriage of Roberto (styled "Prince of Gessaphe") and Princess Maria Anna was ruled to equal because of his apparent descent from a noble Lebanese family. Given that, every single member of the Royal House of Saxony agreed in 1997 that the eldest son of this union would be the immediate heir to Maria Emanuel. So, it would seem that the Royal Family itself does know why Afif was deemed to be equal.

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So it's sheer randomness or even arbitrariness of the Margrave of Meissen IMHO and not following an ancient tradition - as these decisions are based on an old concept and not the current laws of Germany, they should at least completely adhere to the old concept of House Laws or to the laws of the country of Saxony /Germany.
Thank you for stating your opinion. However, the reasons for the decision of the late Margrave and the approbation that was given by the entire Royal House for the naming of Alexander as direct heir have been elaborated upon thoroughly, n'est-ce pas?
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