Royal House of Saxony (Wettin)


If you have answers, please help by responding to the unanswered posts.
It could be argued that Archduke Otto's decision to amend his house laws were fueled primarily because a change suited his immediate heir, Karl...apparently some of the extended Habsburg family, especially the Austria-Este branch, felt that Archduke Karl's union with Baroness Francesca Thyssen was not equal as she did not possess the required noble quarterings and was also canonically illegitimate. Perhaps the fact that the Francesca's father was a billionaire played into Archduke Otto's decision to recognize the marriage as dynastic? That sounds a lot more like Otto was being pragmatic as opposed to modern.

But already before the marriage of Karl and Francesa Baronesses where accepted as equal like for example Baroness Marie Helen de Villenfagne de Vogelsanck the wife of Otto's nephew Archduke Rudolf.
And since a few they accepted everywoman apparently she only has to be christian.
The Saxons apparently want at last a noble partner for a dynastic marriage.
 
Princess Maria Anna's marriage was retroactively recognized as equal.

So it would have been possible as well to accept Prince Timo's first marriage as equal, this accepting Ruediger as a dynast. The Margrave could have done this if it had been important for him to follow tradition.
I absolutely understand that the Margrave wanted to choose his own personal heir from his closest relatives. But to change the House Laws in one case and not in the other in order to change the Headship of the House is IMHO hypocritical. House politics have asked for the heir to be of an equal marriage. Neither Timo's nor Maria Anna's marrigae was equal in traditional terms. So neither child should have inherited the position of the Head of the House or the member of the family who was closer considering the dynastical tradition (male before female).


Because neither the Margrave nor the rest of his family (save Albert, who only came to know Rudiger personally after 1997) had any relationship at all with Timo's children. Why would the Margrave appoint a practical stranger, even if a blood relation, as his heir?
Why did they not seek out the children and offer a hand in the raising of them? AFAIK Timo left the children with their paternal grandparents when their mother died with Ruediger aged 5 and Iris aged 2. If the Margrave had taken an interest in the children and made it possible for them to be raised properly, maybe Ruediger would not have had so many difficulties in life.
So he was never acknowledged and never got help - for me this was cruelty on the part of his paternal family.

And it's not about appointing an heir but accepting a potential heir and to take active interest in that son who did not chose to be born.

I personally like how Ruediger has redeemed himself and how hard he works now in order to restore part of the former Wettin-lands which he has leased from the State. He employs people in a place where jobs are rare and so he helps to make sure that at least some young Saxonians can stay in their country and don't have to move to other federal States of the FRG.

Prince Albert is reportedly in ill health. At this point in his life, I doubt he truly cares about this matter. It is his morganatic wife who is pulling the strings (see the Bild article where she, not her husband, proclaims that they are Margrave and Margravine of Meissen).
Does it matter for prince Alexande ror anybody if Albert wants to take a place that is rightfully his due to his birth and circumstances? IMHO out of sheer respect for Prince Albert, his own uncle, Prince Alexander could have waited to claim the title. Call me a rascist, if you want to but the way Alexander immediately after claiming the Headship of the Royal House of Saxony bad-mouthed the Saxonians has a nouveau.-riche if not levante touch to it. IMHO, of course.
 
Can someone explain the background of Saxony? I know the term Saxon in connection with William the Conqueror but I'm not sure how it ties in with the Royal House of Saxony, if it does at all?
William the Conqueror was Norman (from Normandy); the term 'Saxon' refers to the northern German tribes, some of whom around and after the 5th century migrated to Britain. They mingled with the Angles and merged into the people we call Anglo-Saxons. Four hundred years later the Anglo-Saxon King of Wessex, who we know as Alfred the Great, became the first King of all England. Queen Elizabeth II is his direct descendant.

Saxony is an area of Germany which was once a rich and powerful state within the Holy Roman Empire. When that Empire was dissolved by Napoleon, Saxony became a Kingdom. When the Germanic States were unified into what we know as 'Germany' in 1871, Saxony retained it's status as a kingdom (subject to Prussia) and remained as such until the collapse of Imperial Germany in 1918. Although they ceased to reign or rule the Royal Family of Saxony kept their private properties and other assets until 1945 when most were lost to the Soviets (Saxony had the misfortune to fall under Soviet occupation at the end of World War II and was incorporated into communist-ruled East Germany).

Athough it may have no importance or relevance to the average German citizen today, the Royal House of Saxony remains of interest to those with an interest in royalty and royal history. Thus the family has its own thread in this forum. With the death of the Margrave this week, the subject of who should succeed him as Head of the Royal House is currently the subject of vigorous discussion and debate.
 
Last edited:
I just looked up the aforementioned article by the German tabloid Bild:
Sachsens Thronfolger: Dieses geheime Papier regelt die Wettiner-Nachfolge - Chemnitz - Bild.de

They quote as expert they asked about the judical consequences of the signing of the contract a "Prince of Saxe-Gessaphe" - surely the brother of Prince Alexander? Some proof!

And the document says that despite bearing the signatures of the members of the family their individual "rights according to the laws of the Federal Republic" - "bürgerliche Rechte" still stand and are not renounced. Thus, as last surviving male-line heir of his late father, Prince Albert of course can claim to be acknowledged as his father's heir after his brother died childless. Which, according to the article, he does pointing at his father's testament. Because I doubt that the Head of the House can adapt the line of succession if he wants - there were so many kings who despised their eldest son but still these became kings after their father's death. Prince Albert did not renounce his inheritance rights, he only signed that at that gioven moment he agreed to his brother's choice of heir.

Bit if he later got doubts about Prince Alexander, met Ruediger and thought Ruediger more fitting? Than the document can't bind him legally IMHO. Even if a Prof.Dr. iur Prince of Saxe-Gessaphe claims it. The document was signed under reserve of those rights deriving from the laws of Germany, you can read it on the facsimile of the contract.
 
Last edited:
Thank you for the link, Kataryn. It just goes to prove that *every single member* of the Saxon Royal House, even the morganatic spouses of Princes Albert, Ernst Heinrich and Timo, gave their approval to the naming of Prince Alexander of Saxony as the direct heir of his uncle, the late Prince Maria Emanuel. Therefore, in my opinion, Alexander automatically became the new Margrave of Meissen and Head of the Royal House upon the death of Maria Emanuel earlier this week.
 
Last edited:
Doesn't Alexander still have to wait for Prince Albert to die in order to be Margrave? The 1997 compact only say that Alexander will succeeded when the male legitimate/equal line dies out.
 
Many talk about the document but what did the document actually say and is there an English translation of it.
 
...I doubt that the Head of the House can adapt the line of succession if he wants...
I think you'll find that German law won't get involved in such matters. So long as estate inheritances are distributed according to the law, the internal matter of who shall become 'Head of the House' and receive the family patrimony is guaranteed by a valid will or testament and to some extent family tradition, and that's the end of it. This principle was established in two similar cases - Leiningen and Hohenzollern.

Emich, the 7th Prince of Leiningen removed his eldest son, Prince Karl Emich, as Hereditary Prince due to his 'unequal' marriage and more or less wrote him out of his will (and/or the Leiningen Family Trusts). Karl Emich challenged this action in court and lost; the court upheld the right of the Fürst to determine how the family patrimony could be distributed or passed on and in due course the second son, Andreas, succeeded to the Headship of the House as the 8th Prince of Leiningen and inherited the bulk of the (very considerable) family assets.

I've got more detailed information on both cases but I haven't fully indexed the publications they appear in and rather than wade through my folders I'll refer instead to these [reliable] web sources:

https://groups.google.com/forum/?fromgroups#!topic/alt.talk.royalty/xtJ_lG5Ricw
quote:
"The court was Germany's Federal constitutional court (Bundesverfassungsgericht), and the court's own press release is at: http://www.bundesverfassungsgericht.de/texte/deutsch/pressemitteilungen/bvg24-00.html

The exact nature of the decision was to refuse to hear the appeal put forth by Prince Karl Emich against the decision of the Bavarian High Court in 1996. His appeal was based on the freedom to marry protected by the German constitution.

The constitutional court motivated its refusal by agreeing with the Bavarian High Court, and siding with the freedom to dispose of one's possessions by testament, also protected by the constitution."

The Leiningen decision came soon after the Hohenzollern decision.

The Hohenzollern case concerned a similar principle, namely that Prince Louis Ferdinand was entitled to pass the bulk of the Hohenzollern patrimony and succession to Prince George Friedrich, the son of Louis Ferdinand's 3rd son. Prince Louis Ferdinand's two eldest sons, Princes Friedrich Wilhelm and Michael, who had previously made 'unequal' marriages, were thereby passed over. They challenged Georg Friedrich in court, and lost.

Full details link: The Hohenzollern succession and the Federal Court of Justice ruling of 1998

Putting the financial battle to one side, the Court, at least in these two cases, would not involve itself in a determination of who should bear the title or honour or style of 'Head of the House' but left it to the will or testament or previous valid arrangements of the former Head or Heads.

I'm not an expert in German law by any means but these two cases were reported in some detail in specialist royal publications at the time and while my summary may not be 100% correct I believe the gist of it is. Thus the Margrave can "pass on' the House Headship to Alexander, his legally adopted son, and whether it be right or wrong, moral or immoral, ethical or unethical etc etc, has no particular relevance. The worst that can happen is that some folks will recognise Alexander's newfound status, some won't, and the vast majority won't be aware or care.
 
Thank you for the link, Kataryn. It just goes to prove that *every single member* of the Saxon Royal House, even the morganatic spouses of Princes Albert, Ernst Heinrich and Timo, gave their approval to the naming of Prince Alexander of Saxony as the direct heir of his uncle, the late Prince Maria Emanuel.

I only wonder why Erina as the morganatic widow of Prince Timo is allowed to use the HRH when Prince Ruediger, son from an exactly similar marriage, is not...

But Warren in his post above :previous: is right: it doesn't matter one bit if it is just or not or what one personally think. It only goes to show again that there is s clear difference between nobility of birth and nobility of character. :ermm:
 
Because neither the Margrave nor the rest of his family (save Albert, who only came to know Rudiger personally after 1997) had any relationship at all with Timo's children. Why would the Margrave appoint a practical stranger, even if a blood relation, as his heir?

So his house does not go extinct and the claim pass to another family, its not like there is any property left to claim, all those issues are settled. I don't believe however that they were settled in 1997 though and maybe the Margrave thought he could keep the money in his branch, and preferred this even if it resulted in the extinction of his house. But of course as things turned out all descendants got their fair share of compensation.

Prince Albert is reportedly in ill health. At this point in his life, I doubt he truly cares about this matter. It is his morganatic wife who is pulling the strings (see the Bild article where she, not her husband, proclaims that they are Margrave and Margravine of Meissen).

The fact she is given the HRH in the document indicates she is not a morganatic spouse so she is not going to benefit personally she is already regarded as a Royal Highness by the family by the looks of it. Quite possibly she believes in tradition and wants the male line of her husbands family to continue.


I only wonder why Erina as the morganatic widow of Prince Timo is allowed to use the HRH when Prince Ruediger, son from an exactly similar marriage, is not...

Looking at the document it appears that the unequal marriages of Prince Ernst Heinrich, Prince Albert and Prince Timo are accepted as dynastic as all their spouses are given the HRH. Unless the Margrave decided to recognise them as dynastic retroactively (all except Timo's first marriage) to get a signature....
 
Good to see that Prince Albert seems to be more consilatory at the moment. It was IMHO bad taste to start such a quarrel even before his brother was burried.
 
Last edited:
Good to see that Prince Albert seems to be more consilatory at the moment. It was IMHO bad taste to start such a quarrel even before his brother was burried.

Agreed. Very poor taste.

What I don't like though is the assumption that Albert, due to his disability, is merely the hapless puppet of a domineering wife, even if that is partly true.

It must be remembered that Albert is also an accomplished family historian, so he must be somewhat conflicted about his role in the exclusion of the only flourishing male line descending from the Kings of Saxony in favor of a Middle Eastern family with no historical connection at all to Saxony.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Death of Prince Albert of Saxony, brother of the late Margrave of Meissen

HRH Prince Albert of Saxony, Margrave of Meissen, died on Saturday night in a Munich hospital.

Albert Prinz von Sachsen: Enkel des letzten Sachsen-Königs gestorben - Leipzig - Bild.de

translation:
Dresden - Albert Prince of Saxony Duke of Saxony is dead

The grandson of the last king of Saxony Friedrich August III (1865-1932) died on Saturday night at the age of 77 years in a Munich hospital. The news was announced by the royal family on Sunday.

The prince leaves his wife Elmira Princess of Saxony, Duchess of Saxe.
Prince Albert was born in 1934 in the Bavarian town of Bamberg. He studied history, economics, and folklore and last lived in Dresden and Munich.

He remained close to his native Saxony all his life, as shown by the many publications of his relating to the Free State.
A date for the funeral has not yet been announced.

ETA.. Prince Albert and his wife had no children.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Two Markgrafen (Kings) in one year. It's so sad.

:sad::saxonyflag:


NOW, Alexander is rightfull Markgraf.
:saxonystandard:
 
NOW, Alexander is rightful Markgraf.
Unless Prince Ruediger - who was Prince Albert's successor of choice - contests that. Ruediger is the only agnatic great- grandson of Frederick Augustus III. His parents' marriage was of course morganatic, but then so was Alexander's parents (although Alexander himself married equally).
 
Albert and his wife were among those who signed the family pact acknowledging Alexander as the heir -- Rüdiger was not involved because he has never been considered or recognized as a dynast.
Unless Prince Ruediger - who was Prince Albert's successor of choice - contests that. Ruediger is the only agnatic great- grandson of Frederick Augustus III. His parents' marriage was of course morganatic, but then so was Alexander's parents (although Alexander himself married equally).
 
:previous:
Well, neither was Alexander at the time. If I'm not mistaken, the document was signed by most members of the family, dynasts or not.
Mind you, I'm not disputing Margrave Alexander's rights; his claims do appear to be more sound, and virtually undisputed now that Albert is gone.
 

I don't think it's a scandal that Prince Albert called himself Margrave of Meissen for this short span between his brother's and his own death. But Alexander of Saxe-Gessaphe really should have attended the funeral. In fact, this was the last funeral of a prince of the Saxony-Wettins with undisputed dynast status.
 
The scandal seems to be that the wife of the man that Prince Timo adopted for money (in exchange for the "Prinz von Sachsen" name) was placed prominently at the funeral while the Furst of Hohenzollern had to find a seat in the area of the church set off for the public.

Also, the honor guard that escorted the coffin of Prince Albert apparently did not impress the Bild reporter very much.
 

:previous: Frum these musings:

"The "highlight" of the mass was the appearance of Theophana Prinzessin von Sachsen, the former wife of the late Hermann Prinz von Sachsen, who was the adopted son of the late Prince Timo of Saxony.

Hermann was the son of Eva Montanus. He was adopted as an adult by Timo and his third wife. He is said to have paid for the name Prinz von Sachsen."

Adoption is not illegal in Germany. It means that adopter and adoptee want to form a real family connection by law, thus the adoptee severes all legal ties to his former family. There are cases where this procedere is used to "sell" a noble name, but mostly it happens because two people simply want to make their felt kinship a legal one. #

I'm not informed about the case of Hermann and his adopted father Timo. But the fact that the widowed wife of Hermann attended the funeral of her legal father-in-law's cousin and was seated on a place of honour tells me no matter if there was a financial transaction to this adoption, in this case a real family bond formed with Timo's other (and real) child, Prince Ruediger, who had helped organised the funeral.

BTW: I wouldn't trust Bild reports at all!
 
Theophana and her husband were divorced. Moreover, Timo, who had little contact with his children while they were growing up,as they were raised by their maternal family, was in need of money. Hermann Montanus paid Timo for a surname, just as Robert Lichtenberg did when he was adopted by Marie Auguste of Anhalt
 
Back
Top Bottom