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  #121  
Old 10-04-2008, 07:39 PM
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Christening of Ottora Terberger

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Originally Posted by Stefan View Post
I think when the christening has taken place tehre will be 1 or 2 pictures in Bunte like it has happened with her brother. In his case the christening was rather late when he was already about 10 months old.

Has the christening of Ottora Terberger taken place yet? Perhaps like the announcement of her birth, details of the christening will be released sometime after the event?
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  #122  
Old 10-10-2008, 11:27 AM
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Originally Posted by Franz View Post
Ich habe eine sehr spezielle Frage zu den Wittelsbachern. Es geht um das Allianzwappen Wittelsbacher und Kurpfalz:

Im Schloss Nymphenburg, erster Stock Nordseite sind drei Räume zu besichtigen. Im ersten Raum befinden sich Portraits von Hofdamen aus der Großen Schönheitsgalerie Max Emanuels, den zweiten dekorieren vier Knüpfteppiche mit dem Allianzwappen von Bayern und der Kurpfalz (sog. Wappenzimmer) während im dritten Raum Bildnisse Karl Theodors und seiner Gemahlin hängen. (Quelle: Wikipedia)

Drei der vier Knüpfteppiche sind fast identisch. Sie zeigen exakt das gleiche Allianzwappen Bayern-Kurpfalz. Das Allianzwappen des vierten Teppichs ist anders. Das Wappen der Kurpfalz zeigt rechts oben drei Kreuze, jedoch eine andere Gebirgsformation. Das rotsilberne Schachbrettmuster in der Mitte des Kurpfalz-Wappens ist grösser, ich meine 5x3 anstatt 3x3 oder so.

Sind das zwei verschiedene Wappen? Vielleicht aus verschiedenen Gebieten der Kurpfalz im 18.Jhdt? Aus Sulzbach oder so.

Wo kann ich Literatur zu dieser Wappenfrage finden?

Gruss Franz
{Edit Marengo: Note that the original post was deleted as it was in German, only that was before we noticed Jo's informative reply, which we do not want to delete}

For those interested:
Franz asks about four tapestries on display at the palace of Nymphenburg in Munich, Bavaria. They are displayed in a room called heraldic chamber and show the combined coat of arms of Bavaria and the Palatinate. Three look quite the same but one features a different coast of arms for the Palatinate than the others.

I checked for him and found that the tapestries were woven for Karl IV. Theodor of Wittelsbach in 1756 in Mannheim, (today Baden-Wuerttemberg). Karl-Theodor was born in 1724 as the only son of the then reigning duke of Pfalz-Sulzbach, an independant dukedom, reigned by the Pfalz-Sulzbach-branch (a cadet branch) of the Wittelsbach of Bavaria. From his mother, Marie Henriette de La Tour-Auvergne he had inherited a marquisate in the Netherlands, Bergen-op-Zoom. In 1733 he inherited his father's dukedom (Sulzbach BTW is a town in Upper Franconia, part of Bavaria). Because he was the heir of his greatuncle Karl III. of Wittelsbach, who was Prince-elector of the Palatinate, duke of Pfalz-Neuburg (Neuburg is as well in Bavaria) and duke of Jülich-Berg (in Northern Germany), Karl Theodor was educated in Mannheim at his great-uncle's court. In 1742 he inherited from his great-uncle.

In 1766 it dawned on the prince-elector of Bavaria, head of the House of Wittelsbach, that the prince-elector of the Palatinate was in all probability his heir. Contracts were made in order to secure Bavaria in this case from Austria, because it was well-known that Karl Theodor hated Munich and would prefer to exchange Bavaria for the Austrian Netherlands in order to create a new realm in between France and Germany, reaching from the North Sea to the French border of the Alsace with Mannheim as the capital, where Karl Theodor was on building the second largest baroque palace after Versailles, but with one more window build in on purpose...

On hindsight it was good that the Bavarian Wittelsbachs insisted on these inheritance contracts which forced Karl Theodor to move to Munich because Napoleon led to Wittelsbach's loosing all its possessions except those within Bavaria. Though it's fun to think about what might have been, because Karl Theodor's heir Max Joseph (from the Pfalz-Birkenfeld-Bischweiler-Zweibrücken-branch of the Wittelsbach) managed to wrangle the title of "king of Bavaria" out of Napoleon in exchange of his daughter Amalia's hand in marriage for Eugene de Beaharnais. Maybe he could have kept Karl Theodor's dream realm and become with Austria the counterpart of Prussia in Germany? Who knows...

So in 1777 Karl Theodor inherited Bavaria and moved to Munich, where he died in the palace of Nymphenburg in 1799. As he had no children of his own, he brought his nephew Max Joseph with him. All Palatinian branches of the Wittelsbachs historically had the title of "duke in Bavaria", so Karl-Theodor and later Max Joseph were "dukes in Bavaria" and later "dukes of Bavaria" while the cousins of Max-Joseph of the Wittelsbach-branch of Pfalz-Birkenfeld-Bischweiler-Gelnhausen, when they moved to Bavaria stayed just "dukes in Bavaria" but got the style of HRH when Max I. Joseph became king (for all of you who always wanted to know why Empress Elizabeth and her sisters queen Marie of Naples, Sophie d'Alencon and Helene of Thurn & Taxis were called "duchesses in Bavaria" pre-wedding while her Elisabeth's mother-in-law Archduchess Sophie and her sisters, the queens of Prussia and Saxony, were princesses of Bavaria pre-wedding).

Back to the tapestries: probably the dukedoms of Pfalz-Neuburg and Jülich-Berg used the coat of arms of the electorate of the Palatinate when Karl-Theodor inherited, so he had four tapestries woven for his three dukedoms and his electorate and their alliance with Bavaria, where the main branch of his family reigned.
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  #123  
Old 10-10-2008, 08:30 PM
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Hey
does anyone knows abt prince Luitpold's kids?
i know princess alice's went to Edinburgh university along prince albert T & T, but where did her younger brother prince Heinrich went for college?
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  #124  
Old 10-15-2008, 10:46 AM
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King of Jerusalem

Hey,
A guidebook to Nymphenburg Castle, Munich, says that the King of Jerusalem is still living there.
I that true or what?
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  #125  
Old 10-15-2008, 01:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Franz View Post
Hey,
A guidebook to Nymphenburg Castle, Munich, says that the King of Jerusalem is still living there.
I that true or what?
Franz Duke of Bavaria lives at Nymphenburg, but I wasn't aware he is one of the claimants of the title of the king of Jerusalem. There's an Wikipedia-article about the different claims at Kings of Jerusalem - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia.
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  #126  
Old 10-15-2008, 05:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jo of Palatine View Post
Franz Duke of Bavaria lives at Nymphenburg, but I wasn't aware he is one of the claimants of the title of the king of Jerusalem. There's an Wikipedia-article about the different claims at Kings of Jerusalem - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia.
Hey, thank you Jo of Palatine. Wikipedia in german says he is while Wikipedia in english forgot him. LG Franz
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  #127  
Old 10-16-2008, 03:36 AM
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Hey, thank you Jo of Palatine. Wikipedia in german says he is while Wikipedia in english forgot him. LG Franz
I wonder why? I checked the German Wiki and it makes absolute sense that Franz is the pretender to the kingdom of Jerusalem because the last reigning king of Jerusalem was a Lusignan of Cyprus - a dynasty which knew the inheritance rights of females, though they went semi-salic, that is: legitimate males first. From what I could see, the last legitimate queen of Cyprus, Charlotte, was married to her cousin of Savoy, whose mother was a princess of Cyprus as well. Thus it makes sense that after Charlotte died childless, her claim went to her late husband's elder brother through his mother Anne of CyprusI seems that according to the rules of semi-salic law, Franz of Bavaria is the rightful claimant as senior blood-relative of the last reigning king of Jerusalem. Very interesting! Thank you for pointing me to that question.
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  #128  
Old 10-18-2008, 06:48 AM
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prince Ludwig of BAvaria died Ovtober 17th 2008 at age 95. Genealogical News 2008

He was born June 22 1913. He Married his Cousin Princess Irmingard of Bavaria on July 20 1950. He is Survived by Her and His only son Prince Luitpold. (Who Will one day be Duke of Bavaria) and 5 grandkids.
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  #129  
Old 10-18-2008, 08:02 AM
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What an intricate but interesting family!
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  #130  
Old 10-18-2008, 08:49 AM
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My condolences to the Family.
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  #131  
Old 10-19-2008, 09:23 AM
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Originally Posted by HMTLove23 View Post
prince Ludwig of BAvaria died Ovtober 17th 2008 at age 95. Genealogical News 2008

He was born June 22 1913. He Married his Cousin Princess Irmingard of Bavaria on July 20 1950. He is Survived by Her and His only son Prince Luitpold. (Who Will one day be Duke of Bavaria) and 5 grandkids.
No, Luitpold will not be Head of the House because he married unequally, so lost his place in the succession. When it turned out that there were no other male heirs from equal marriages (prince Leopold as well had married unequally), Duke Franz and the other dynasts of the family declared the marriage as equal, thus making Luitpold's children dynasts. They did however not reinstall Luitpold, so after Duke Franz's death Luitpold's eldest son will become Head of the House.
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  #132  
Old 10-19-2008, 01:53 PM
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Originally Posted by Jo of Palatine View Post
No, Luitpold will not be Head of the House because he married unequally, so lost his place in the succession. When it turned out that there were no other male heirs from equal marriages (prince Leopold as well had married unequally), Duke Franz and the other dynasts of the family declared the marriage as equal, thus making Luitpold's children dynasts. They did however not reinstall Luitpold, so after Duke Franz's death Luitpold's eldest son will become Head of the House.
And has Prince Leopold been reinstalled or only his descendants?
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  #133  
Old 10-20-2008, 04:05 AM
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Originally Posted by Jo of Palatine View Post
No, Luitpold will not be Head of the House because he married unequally, so lost his place in the succession. When it turned out that there were no other male heirs from equal marriages (prince Leopold as well had married unequally), Duke Franz and the other dynasts of the family declared the marriage as equal, thus making Luitpold's children dynasts. They did however not reinstall Luitpold, so after Duke Franz's death Luitpold's eldest son will become Head of the House.
May i ask what your source is for this statement is? I have only heard that when the marriage of Luitpold (and other) was reognized he got again succession rights.
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  #134  
Old 10-20-2008, 09:40 AM
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May i ask what your source is for this statement is? I have only heard that when the marriage of Luitpold (and other) was reognized he got again succession rights.
Wikipedia claims it, but I have seen it on a more official webpage as well that Luitpold's eldest son is the heir, not his father. I tried to find this page again, so far with no success, so I phoned the office of the Ducal House of Bavaria and they will tell me as soon as they are not longer so busy with the arrangements for prince Ludwig's funeral. It was a funny call, as the lady clerk there said that they are so very busy at the moment so she had to ask me for patience and I said: Oh, is it because of Prince Ludwig's death? She was soo astonished that I knew because they have not published it as news, only tomorrow the media will be informed and so asked me where I got this information from and I said from a genealocial webpage via an internet forum. She said then that of couse the Adelsarchiv has been informed, so genealogists know, that the information is correct but that they wanted to give the family a bit time to arrange things before going public.
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  #135  
Old 10-20-2008, 12:47 PM
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And what about prince Leopold? Has he been restored in his rights or only his children?
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  #136  
Old 10-20-2008, 01:16 PM
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Originally Posted by Jo of Palatine View Post
Wikipedia claims it, but I have seen it on a more official webpage as well that Luitpold's eldest son is the heir, not his father. I tried to find this page again, so far with no success, so I phoned the office of the Ducal House of Bavaria and they will tell me as soon as they are not longer so busy with the arrangements for prince Ludwig's funeral. It was a funny call, as the lady clerk there said that they are so very busy at the moment so she had to ask me for patience and I said: Oh, is it because of Prince Ludwig's death? She was soo astonished that I knew because they have not published it as news, only tomorrow the media will be informed and so asked me where I got this information from and I said from a genealocial webpage via an internet forum. She said then that of couse the Adelsarchiv has been informed, so genealogists know, that the information is correct but that they wanted to give the family a bit time to arrange things before going public.
Thanks.

The Funeral of Prince Ludwig will take place on Wednesday 22.10.2008 at Kloster Andechs and he will be buried at the Wittelsbach-Burial Ground on the Grounds of Andechs.
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  #137  
Old 10-20-2008, 02:51 PM
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Thanks.

The Funeral of Prince Ludwig will take place on Wednesday 22.10.2008 at Kloster Andechs and he will be buried at the Wittelsbach-Burial Ground on the Grounds of Andechs.
I live quite close to Andechs, in fact can see it from my home on the hills above the Lake, hmmm... thank you for the information!
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  #138  
Old 10-20-2008, 03:11 PM
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Luitpod was morganaticly married to Beatrix Wiegand. This marriege was acknowledged as dynastic by Duke Franz, March 3rd, 1999.
He is next in line after Dukes Franz and Max.
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  #139  
Old 10-20-2008, 05:44 PM
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Luitpod was morganaticly married to Beatrix Wiegand. This marriege was acknowledged as dynastic by Duke Franz, March 3rd, 1999.
He is next in line after Dukes Franz and Max.

thanks for clearing that up... I thought that was right...
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  #140  
Old 10-20-2008, 07:57 PM
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What a long life Prince Ludwig had . . . now I remember reading that he and his wife (Princess Irmingard) had two daughters (Irmingard Maria and Philippa) but sadly, said two daughters were either stillborn or died as infants :(
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