Prince Gustav and Carina Axelsson, Current Events & Discussion 1: July 2007-Aug 2009

[BurberryBrit]

Fashion industry pays peanuts. People who work in the fashion industry make peanuts. Working for a major designer does not mean that she earned any money at all. There is no proof other than the tabloid magazine that she worked for Galliano and, if she did, what kind of work did she do. Get coffee? Based on her wardrobe choices, she knows even less than Mary about fashion and style so I doubt she assisted in the design process.

The proof that she is a failed model is that she failed to get more than a couple of jobs in a period of a few years. Successful models careers don't stall at such a young age. It doesn't make them a model at all let alone a successful one. It is hard to dispute that she is short, chubby, and has a big nose and bad teeth with a huge gap. The older she gets the homelier she gets. The agencies saw this coming and dumped her for being a bad bet hence her career stalled. It happens to failed models all the time.

Do you have the updated sales figures for Nigel? How could you possibly know that is still selling well around the world? Even so that doesn't mean that she got any money for it besides an advance and advances (and royalties) in children's literature are minute and royalties payment schedules are not built into every contract.

You equate supporting herself and not living in a gutter with being financially stable. The two have little to do with each other. People support themselves every day but most are only one paycheck away from homelessness. Financially stable is a different level altogether. That would indicates savings, investments and assets. Living in Paris but doing the menial work that Carina did indicates that she supported herself but in a hand-to-mouth manner.

I'm sorry but that's ridiculous. Not anyone can be in Vogue. Also not every successful model is a high fashion supermodel. There are lots of successful commercial models who make very good money but they don't do the glamorous modeling that we're all familiar with. I think it's a bit drastic to call her a failed model when modeling could never be considered a long-term career in the first place.

You are correct that most fashion jobs don't pay well because the perks of the job (clothes, cache of working in fashion, networking potential, etc) are more than payment. Also, a lot of girls with financial security are able to take these jobs because they don't worry about the lack of sustainable income. I definitely wouldn't say Carina worked a menial job, even if she was just an assistant. My goodness, she had to start somewhere right? I doubt they would have her running the company from the start.

 

[Fashionista100]

I have to agree with GT on this. As for former model in Europe and the US, as well as someone who worked in fashion, you can make good money w/o being famous. Or in fashion mags. As far as a career in fashion, you can earn a decent living and save and invest. It depends on what you do.

I am amazed that people are constantly refering to others as golddiggers because they were not born with a silver spoon in their mouth or own their own castle. It is a sad statement on society and women when we treat each other with such venom.

 

[Mandy]

Where's all this aggression coming from and for what purpose! We have rules in place against this type of behaviour:

Insulting comments about other posters and royals are not permitted. Criticism is acceptable; insults and flames are not. We expect our members to treat each other with respect.

Now let's move on to another topic.

Thanks,

Mandy

 

[NotAPretender]

What are their options, then?

I see their options as this:

Scenario 1 - Grandpop's will is overturned.

Outcome A - Gustav & Carina marry & live happily in the castle with the full inheritance, leading to a possible Outcome B:
Outcome B - The next heirs after Gustav make a decision whether or not to appeal.
​

Scenario 2 - Grandpop's will is upheld.

Outcome A - Gustav & Carina marry & live happily in a nice semi-detached, forgoing the castle/titles/styles/jewels/lands/income & becoming merely Mr. & Mrs. Berleburg or some such derivative;
Outcome B - Gustav & Carina become "life partners," begat children, Gustav adopts said children to assure their inheritance, the couple/family retaining the castle/titles/styles/jewels/lands/income but never marrying.
​

From what I was reading earlier upthread and without access to the exact will itself, it appears on the surface that Scenario 2 has the better edge in the outcome.

They've been dating, what, 3 years? Her first official appearance as his girlfriend I believe was at the Hesse wedding.

There are third and fourth scenarios:

Scenario 3: Grandpop's will is overturned but Carina & Gustav have broken off their relationship, the stress of which has caused them to reconsider their commitment. In this Scenario, Gustav has the benefit of now being able to choose any bride he wishes, which literally opens up the world to him.

Scenario 4: Grandpop's will is upheld, Carina & Gustav decide to be life partners without marriage, but never have children for whatever reason. In which case, the entire kit and kaboodle goes to the next heir anyway, much angst for no gain.

I'm certainly glad I had no such weighty considerations in my personal life. But then again, they both have the absolute freedom to walk away from the castle/titles/styles/jewels/lands/income at any time now and live full and happy and productive lives.

It's wanting to have both - to have it all - that has placed them in this box. So in many ways, as much as they might feel that they are prisoners of Grandpop's will, they are prisoners only to their own needs and wants.

Can anyone think of any other Scenarios to add?

 

[GlitteringTiaras]

No, I believe you covered just about everything under the sun, NAP.

In all likelihood scenario 4 is it and the heir to Bad Berleburg goes to Alexandra's son. In the end, the situation still does not look good.

 

[Stefan]

No, I believe you covered just about everything under the sun, NAP.

In all likelihood scenario 4 is it and the heir to Bad Berleburg goes to Alexandra's son. In the end, the situation still does not look good.

It will go to the next male heir of the Berleburg Family. Not to Alexandra's descendants.

 

[GlitteringTiaras]

Whoops, sorry. Thanks for the correction, Stefan. So who is it again?

 

[Stefan]

Whoops, sorry. Thanks for the correction, Stefan. So who is it again?

It depends if the marriage-rule also counts for them. If not hten to Prince Richard's brother Robin and his son Sebastian. if yes then probably to more distant relatives.

 

[GlitteringTiaras]

Interesting, very interesting especially when it comes to Prince Robin. So what are your thoughts regarding NAP's scenarios? What do you think the outcome will be ten years from now?

 

[GlitteringTiaras]

Anyway...Moving on...

In the latest issue of Svensk Dam Tidning there is a snippet about Carina at the bottom of [URL="http://www.svenskdamtidning.se/Sites/SvDam/Default____53251.aspx"]this[/URL] article. In the article, Princess Benedikte remarked "...how lucky we are to have her in Berleburg and that she is so interested in Bad Berleburg..." I'm paraphrasing here so please don't cut my head off.

 

[GlitteringTiaras]

[URL="http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj201/kategt2/Carina%20Axelsson%20and%20Prince%20Gustav%20SWB/50788702_15749575_display.jpg"]Carina Axelsson, in an extremely cheesy pose,[/URL] can now add unofficial Sayn-Wittgenstein-Berleburg archivist to her resume. In a recent article in [URL="http://www.derwesten.de/"]Der Westen[/URL], Carina began sorting through lost items, art works, diaries, and other assorted stuff once hidden away in Schloss Berleburg almost a year ago. In order to keep the items perserved she hired a professional to restore some of these valuable items so that they may be displayed as apart of the shloss tour (which is open to the public).

A year in the cellar as well as the attic of Scloss Berleburg in search of the history of the royal family was Carina's goal. A series of about 40 paintings now hang in the so-called Münzzimmer on the ground floor were found. From now on, the newly designed space is apart of the castle tours, "I've searched and searched" says the wife of Prince Gustav (this is the exact translation from the article. Oddly enough they are not married. Previously, German journalists referred to Carina as the life companion to Gustav. Hmm, maybe they are secretly married.)

"I have found mountains of rubbish and under it all this junk treasures were found." Particularly pleased was Prince Richard, many of the images found he had never seen that before. "The images he showed me was the most fun," says Carina Axelsson. The room is only small, but important - especially in regard to the anniversary of the town of Bad Berleburg.

The room portrayed the history of closely intertwined with the city Princely family "...only from the past 350 years..." Carina Axelsson regrets. Unfortunately, previous photos were not available. Century shows the city with the old church at the Goethe court, a different picture shows the Edertal 1942. Portraits of the royal family round out the collection. Many pictures were by the long storage in the basement and the attic of the castle are in a poor state. Carina Axelsson had to bring in a specialist, which they cleaned, restored, and re-framed.

"The people who come here had to be a quick and get idea of who belongs to the family and what the family has made..." says the American woman. A little does it fit in one way or another still left corner: "I always find new things," she says. The search has irritated the election-Wittgenstein's because so few pictures of the women of the family are to be found. "That was really frustrating," she says. "There were very few portraits of women." Currently, Carina Axelsson will design three other rooms. "Maybe I will do two of them before Christmas time."

 

[Jo of Palatine]

"I've searched and searched" says the wife of Prince Gustav (this is the exact translation from the article. Oddly enough they are not married. Previously, German journalists referred to Carina as the life companion to Gustav. Hmm, maybe they are secretly married.)

GT, thank you very much for posting this information.
I read the article in the original at Kellerschätze der Fürstenfamilie an das Tageslicht befördert Carina Axelsson hat für das "Münzzimmer" ein Jahr lang nach Bildern gesucht - Bad Berleburg - DerWesten
but there they said that Carina is the lifecompanion/Lebensgefährtin of prince Gustav?

Quote: ""Ich habe gesucht und gesucht", erzählt die Lebensgefährtin von Prinz Gustav." End of quote.

Probably they changed it after you found the article.

BTW - in Germany you can have a "registered life-companionship" which gives the couple some rights formerly reserved for married couples, like inheritance rights, right to care and decide for the partner who is incapable of doing so himself, other social rights etc.

Maybe that's what Gustav and Carina did decide on as long as the infamous will is still valid and why she wore a princesses' tiara at Joachim's wedding?

 

[ashelen]

yes i wonder the same queston, how she got to have a tiara in the wedding? anyones knows?

 

[GlitteringTiaras]

GT, thank you very much for posting this information.
I read the article in the original at Kellerschätze der Fürstenfamilie an das Tageslicht befördert Carina Axelsson hat für das "Münzzimmer" ein Jahr lang nach Bildern gesucht - Bad Berleburg - DerWesten
but there they said that Carina is the lifecompanion/Lebensgefährtin of prince Gustav?

Quote: ""Ich habe gesucht und gesucht", erzählt die Lebensgefährtin von Prinz Gustav." End of quote.

Probably they changed it after you found the article.

No problem Jo. However, this is strange to me because it did translate as "the wife of Prince Gustav" now it says Lebensgefährtin. Previous articles from Der Westen have always referred to her as the life companion now it's changed then changed again. My German is intermediate and not that horrific (hence I understand it pretty well), but something isn't right here.

BTW - in Germany you can have a "registered life-companionship" which gives the couple some rights formerly reserved for married couples, like inheritance rights, right to care and decide for the partner who is incapable of doing so himself, other social rights etc.

Interesting... I imagine this may be the situation with Carina and Gustav.

Maybe that's what Gustav and Carina did decide on as long as the infamous will is still valid and why she wore a princesses' tiara at Joachim's wedding?

The tiara affair boggles my mind. The only thing that sounds reasonable: She is the confimed life companion of Gustav thus for some reason is allowed to wear the SWB tiara. We know that she has been wearing a giant ruby and diamond ring on her wedding finger for quite sometime now; she is known as Frau Axelsson and Lady of the Schloss in Bad Berleburg; has been officially recognized by the DRF and the SWB's as the official companion thus is allowed to come to various events in and around Germany and Denmark with Benedikte and appear with the DRF in official photographs and so forth.

Hmmm... only time will tell.

 

[michelleq]

That is interesting! If, and I am not wishing this on Gustav and Carina, they choose to part later and they are registered as life companions, do they get a "Writ of Divorce" or Sepration? How does the law in Germany handle that? I am happy for them but would like for them to marry.

Also, where does one register as "Life Companions"?

 

[ayvee]

To add to michelleq's question, if they had a child/children, would the first-born son inherit Gustav's estate? Or would it go to the first-born son after they are legally married, so the sons prior to marriage would forfeit the estate?

I do hope the grandfather's will gets settled soon though.

-Ayvee

 

[GlitteringTiaras]

Not to sound like a Debbie Downer, Avyee, but I wouldn't count on the Will settling anytime soon. This has been going on for quite some time (perhaps JoP or Stefan can tell us exactly how long). As a result, maybe the couple have come to the conclusion that a life companion status is the only way to go... at least for the foreseeable future.

Anyway, here are a couple of images from the wedding on Saturday: [URL="http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj201/kategt2/Carina%20Axelsson%20and%20Prince%20Gustav%20SWB/carina_1211802064.jpg"]One[/URL], [URL="http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj201/kategt2/Carina%20Axelsson%20and%20Prince%20Gustav%20SWB/bilde22.jpg"]two[/URL], and [URL="http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj201/kategt2/Carina%20Axelsson%20and%20Prince%20Gustav%20SWB/PPE08052447.jpg"]three[/URL]. I found several more, but they are essentially the same as the previous three.

*ppe

ETA:
Here is another [URL="http://www.siegener-zeitung.de/nachrichten/aktuell/region/kultur/6/article/257/muenzen-kabinett-eroeffnet.html"]article[/URL] in relation to the museum at the schloss in which she runs. According to the paper, which now says life companion,
the redesign of the museum at Berleburg by [URL="http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj201/kategt2/Carina%20Axelsson%20and%20Prince%20Gustav%20SWB/50787965_15747894_widescreen.jpg"]Carina Axelsson[/URL] is like a treasure and her exhaustive search through mountains of antiques and paintings was worth it in the end.

"I take the visitors on a journey - back 300 years into the past." says Carina Axelsson. Yesterday, a new room at Schloss Berleburg opened the so-called coin cabinet. "It is not a particularly large room, but it fits ideal for 750-year celebration of the town of Bad Berleburg," says the life companion of Prince Gustav zu Sayn-Wittgenstein-Berleburg, before the door to the special chamber opens. About a year she was in the castle on a voyage of discovery gone. "I have the cellars and attics searched," she recalls. It was amazing to see the photos and images gestoßen. "Some of them are now in the Cabinet."


The ancient treasures they have lots of junk identified and loving attention to work in the light of day. "That obviously took his time." Some of the pictures and photographs Prince Richard and Prince Gustav have never seen. "And so it was fun for me to give them these precious things."

The visitors of the coin Cabinet could continue on a special trip into the past of the town of Bad Berleburg look. "I take the visitors on a journey - back 300 years into the past." And many of the exhibited paintings and portraits show not only the castle and its inhabitants but always building in the city from different perspectives." said Carina Axelsson. "It must of course, the old Münten not be missing." For example, rare "Sain and Wittgenstein'sche guilders" issued a Medallion from the year 1676 or a penny by 1752.

A special coins image in the cabinet - a Auquarell from the year 1818 - also shows the old church at the Goethe court, a different picture holds the bombing of the Odebornstadt during the Second World War more distance out. These characteristics make the journey through the centuries to a special experience. A curiosity has Carina Axelsson in the basements and attics of the castle rediscovered: Two-Field Marshal busts with lampshade on his head. "This is a special pleasure," she says and turns one of the lamps.
Since yesterday, the cabinet coins now a more attractive station tours of the castle Berleburg.

But that's not enough: For some time already Carina is in the process of further areas of the castle again herzurichten, the trophy room is one of them, but also a breakfast room and a small living room.

Meanwhile, the restoration of the schloss continues and as it turns out curators, whilst renovating parts of the schloss, discovered that the building may be much older than previously thought. Various important frescos have been found which some believe date back to the 16th century. You can read the article [url=http://www.derwesten.de/nachrichten/staedte/bad-berleburg/2008/5/15/news-46588490/detail.html]here[/URL] as well as to see various photos.

 

[Josefine]

Maxima wore a tiara to the wedding in norway, but the difference is that she was the fiance

 

[Jo of Palatine]

That is interesting! If, and I am not wishing this on Gustav and Carina, they choose to part later and they are registered as life companions, do they get a "Writ of Divorce" or Sepration? How does the law in Germany handle that? I am happy for them but would like for them to marry.

Also, where does one register as "Life Companions"?

The "eingetragene Lebensgemeinschaft" was created in 2001 by law to allow homosexual couples to "marry". So the procedure is similar to a marriage in the registry office. During the last years the law has involved - before marriage was especially protected by our constitution, so certain rights simply were unavailable for same-sex couples. But when these possibilities were offered to homosexual couples, it was thought that they cannot be denied hetero-couples as well, married or not. So the law now offers certain possibilities to unmarried hetero couples as well, who can create contracts and sign them which gives them similar rights to married couples. It is not really an official status but some legal agreements which before had only been for married couples can now be made for unm arried couples as well, eg when it comes to children, their upbringing, their inheritance etc.

So, but that's merely my guess, Gustav could have gotten more rights to his children by Carina in exchange for her to get certain "widow"-rights, like a right to stay for the rest of her lif in the castle, a right to an apanage etc. Through that, in fact, Carina would have a right of staying in Berleburg and they in fact could have created a status similar to a princess for her.

But I have no more information about that, though it would make sense.
As for the will, I personally think there is ma good chance to overturn it at least in the "aryan" part. The "noble" part is up to today's interpretation hopefully, so queen Margrethe could help and protestant - we've seen with Marie and Autumn that this isn't really a problem for most people nowadays.

 

[GlitteringTiaras]

Thanks JoP for the information But do you think there could be a chance for Queen Margrethe to intervene and if so what could she do? Carina isn't Danish (she's American and ethnically Mexican and Swedish) nor has she ever lived there, as far as I know, so I'm curious to see what card she could throw in. On the other hand, we do know that she spends time in Sweden to visit her relatives according to some Swedish reports (how that could or would help, I have no idea... just thought I would mention it.)

 

[Jo of Palatine]

Thanks JoP for the information But do you think there could be a chance for Queen Margrethe to intervene and if so what could she do? Carina isn't Danish (she's American and ethnically Mexican and Swedish) nor has she ever lived there, as far as I know, so I'm curious to see what card she could throw in. On the other hand, we do know that she spends time in Sweden to visit her relatives according to some Swedish reports (how that could or would help, I have no idea... just thought I would mention it.)

I haven't seen a copy of that infamous will so far but read that the stipulation says: Aryan, noble and protestant. The Aryan surely is against the customs of today's Germany and thus invalid. I'm not sure about the term noble - it could be within the rights of the person who owns the estate to ask for a "noble" wife - question is if he wrote "of noble birth" or "of the nobility". Queen Margrethe can of course elevate Carina to the nobility, like she elevated the former Miss Manley to the rank of countess, but she cannot make Carina into a person of "noble birth". But if a judge declares that however the expression, the testator meant "of the nobility" as a social group (we don't have nobility anymore in Germany and didn't have it when the will was allegedly written) then Margrethe could elevate Carina so she belongs to that group. And converting to the protestant faith is no problem either for most people.

 

[Lakshmi]

It looks like Joachim and Marie's wedding gave occasion to discuss Carina and Gustav.
Their story is somehow romantic. Coulple in love(probably) and not allowed to marry. That will written by Gustav grandfather might be well intentioned in order to protect family wealth and that condition about "Aryan race" might have been because the preassure of times. I guess those times were really scary also for German aristocracy if they did something against the regime.
But discriminating someone based on race is illegal in Germany, so Gustav's lawyers might use that argument to defeat the Will. The most important is that Gustav's family is supporting his relationship.
Carina is very pretty BTW.Good luck for them.

 

[Jo of Palatine]

But discriminating someone based on race is illegal in Germany, so Gustav's lawyers might use that argument to defeat the Will.

It's a bit more difficult when it comes to wills as anybody has a right to dispose of his wealth the way he deems it to be correct. He could have left it to charity eg. We've seen the case with the Leiningens where the eldest son married a non-noble lady his father couldn't stand (today she is the Begum Aga Khan is divorcing at the moment) and so the old prince left his possessions to his second son. This will was okay, as it was within the rights of the old prince to dispose of his estate the way he wanted, even if tradition said it should go to the eldest son. But Gustav's grandfather made his will when Gustav had not yet been born. So it was not "concrete" reasoning according to an existing situation but "abstract" reasoning for a future case which has not yet come to pass. And it is to be discussed if such a will is valid or not. And if it is valid, if all conditions are valid or if the "Aryan"-one is invalid. Difficult questions that need lots of expertises, thus making the case a long, long one. And if Gustav married Carina and if his uncle used the will against him, Gustav would loose control of Berleburg and thus weaken his position as the courts tend to accept in difficult situations the things as they are. That is, if there is no clear opinion about the validity of the will and Gustav has Berleburg, it is likely that he can keep it. If he has already lost it to his uncle it is likely his uncle is going to keep it. Thus he cannot marry at the moment, I guess.

 

[michelleq]

Thank you for the information.

 

[ayvee]

It's a bit more difficult when it comes to wills as anybody has a right to dispose of his wealth the way he deems it to be correct. He could have left it to charity eg. We've seen the case with the Leiningens where the eldest son married a non-noble lady his father couldn't stand (today she is the Begum Aga Khan is divorcing at the moment) and so the old prince left his possessions to his second son. This will was okay, as it was within the rights of the old prince to dispose of his estate the way he wanted, even if tradition said it should go to the eldest son. But Gustav's grandfather made his will when Gustav had not yet been born. So it was not "concrete" reasoning according to an existing situation but "abstract" reasoning for a future case which has not yet come to pass. And it is to be discussed if such a will is valid or not. And if it is valid, if all conditions are valid or if the "Aryan"-one is invalid. Difficult questions that need lots of expertises, thus making the case a long, long one. And if Gustav married Carina and if his uncle used the will against him, Gustav would loose control of Berleburg and thus weaken his position as the courts tend to accept in difficult situations the things as they are. That is, if there is no clear opinion about the validity of the will and Gustav has Berleburg, it is likely that he can keep it. If he has already lost it to his uncle it is likely his uncle is going to keep it. Thus he cannot marry at the moment, I guess.

If the will was written before Gustav was born, why didn't his father (Richard) contest the will then or why doesn't he contest it now? Surely, his father can make a claim on the estate and once he succeeds, then the current will won't be binding because Richard could change/create a new will for Gustav.

-Ayvee

 

[GlitteringTiaras]

Ayvee, I believe the answer to your question is at the beginning of this topic. The discussion is very interesting so when you have a chance take a look.

 

[ayvee]

Ayvee, I believe the answer to your question is at the beginning of this topic. The discussion is very interesting so when you have a chance take a look.

Indeed, I have gone through the whole thread and there is no good explanation why Richard didn't contest the will. I know he was bypassed by his father to avoid inheritance taxes but Richard would have been the best person to contest the will since he met all the criteria that his father imposed about marriage. Or would he not have been able to pay taxes on his father's estate?

Any idea why contesting the will has only happened within the last 5 years or has this been going on for longer?

-Ayvee

 

[Jo of Palatine]

Indeed, I have gone through the whole thread and there is no good explanation why Richard didn't contest the will. I know he was bypassed by his father to avoid inheritance taxes but Richard would have been the best person to contest the will since he met all the criteria that his father imposed about marriage. Or would he not have been able to pay taxes on his father's estate?

Any idea why contesting the will has only happened within the last 5 years or has this been going on for longer?

-Ayvee

If I were prince Richard I'd do my best to get only these orders about marriage out of the will because anything else would cost an enourmous amount of money in taxes. Maybe that's the real problem: how to get rid of certain stipulations without endangering the rest.

As for how long this is going on: no idea. I couldn't find further information and had not yet time to look up publications in the library of the university.

 

[michelleq]

Not trying to be indelicate, but does anyone know an approximate worth of the estate? I know there is a large surrounding forrest as well as a paper factory that I think is part of the estate. I also remember when Gustav was engaged prior to Elvire, there was the issue of the prenup that the Berleburgs wanted Elvire to sign, so that she could not bankrupt the family. I assume that they are "Land Rich" and not necessarily money. Again, that is just my surmise. Any info?

 

[grevinnan]

Richard is not part of the will. The property passed to the eldest son of him. No need to contest the will until the provision became an obstacle. Gustav may have fallen in love with a woman meeting the "requirements".