Prince Gustav and Carina Axelsson, Current Events Part 2: Aug 2009 - June 2022

[Stefan]

What a story , I remember Prince Richard Mother was not allowed to wear the family Fringe tiara at his Son's Wedding ...

At that time her mother-in-law the grandmother of Prince Richard was still alive and the fringe tiara was her personal property as id had been a gift to her.

 

[Lady Daly]

Look what popped up on Noblesse et Royautés today.
Gustav de Sayn-Wittgensetin-Berleburg : 2ème victoire devant ls tribunaux – Noblesse & Royautés
It appears Uncle Ludwig-Ferdinand does plan to take his beef further.

"Second favorable court decision for the prince of Sayn-Wittgenstein-Berleburg, head of the princely house ... Despite this second victory, the case is not yet over because Prince Ludwig Ferdinand (1942), cousin of Prince Gustav, now intends to go to the Federal Constitutional Court. 500 million are at stake, including Berleburg Castle."

 

[Duc_et_Pair]

That is hardly the same thing. Gustav is it seems a hard working man who is willing to look after his inheritance.. ad he's told that if he marries the woman he loves, he may/will lose that inheritance.. just because she is not "noble" or !"aryan."

Prince Gustav can marry anyone he wishes. And he has the usufruct of the enormous fortune of his House. Little to complain, I would say. Note that his grandfather Prince Gustav Albrecht bypassed his very own son Prince Richard to make his then unborn future grandson Prince Gustav his heir. The one to "complain" was Prince Gustav's late father...

One can not complain too hard about a Will, when from day one of his very own life fully enjoying all the benefits of one of Germany's largest private fortunes and then "discovering" there are conditions to said benefits...

 

[Denville]

Prince Gustav can marry anyone he wishes. And he has the usufruct of the enormous fortune of his House. Little to complain, I would say. Note that his grandfather Prince Gustav Albrecht bypassed his very own son Prince Richard to make his then unborn future grandson Prince Gustav his heir. The one to "complain" was Prince Gustav's late father...

One can not complain too hard about a Will, when from day one of his very own life fully enjoying all the benefits of one of Germany's largest private fortunes and then "discovering" there are conditions to said benefits...

I think its appalling. If he had put in a condition that the heir be a soldier, or that he should go to University, it would be tolerable.. but to say that he cannot marry someone who is "not noble" and not Aryan.. is not.

 

[Marc23]

I think its appalling. If he had put in a condition that the heir be a soldier, or that he should go to University, it would be tolerable.. but to say that he cannot marry someone who is "not noble" and not Aryan.. is not.

Maybe for 2020 it's odd, but at that time it was expected to be like that for many old noble families which required that the future Head of the family had to marry someone who will meet their family law criteria.

Even today, if Prince Georg Friedrich of Prussia didn't marry Princess Sophie of Isenburg, he would also lose much of his inheritance.

 

[Kataryn]

Look what popped up on Noblesse et Royautés today.
Gustav de Sayn-Wittgensetin-Berleburg : 2ème victoire devant ls tribunaux – Noblesse & Royautés
It appears Uncle Ludwig-Ferdinand does plan to take his beef further.

"Second favorable court decision for the prince of Sayn-Wittgenstein-Berleburg, head of the princely house ... Despite this second victory, the case is not yet over because Prince Ludwig Ferdinand (1942), cousin of Prince Gustav, now intends to go to the Federal Constitutional Court. 500 million are at stake, including Berleburg Castle."

He may intend that and obviously the ruling by the second court gives him that chance. A Court which sees that there are questions involving constitutional rules often opens up the way for an application of the Constitutional Court but I don't see(IMHO!) the Court accepting the case as it is clear that the institution of "marriage" (as a status protected by our Constitution) is not in question here and ownership of such a "family collection" is problematic when it comes to the constitutional effects, as then the sisters of Gustav were equally to put in the circle of potential heirs.



Plus the Thurn & Taxis have tried (thus far in vain) to open up their "family collection" to be able to get certain lands or companies or even jewelery out of it for the sake of the prince's sisters. As the Dowager princess was able to strike a deal with the Bavarian state, so the inheritance tax was payed, there is no fear that the House is getting unable to pay for their obligation and in that case the ordered "unbreakable collection for the sake of the whole House" is not in danger, even though the current prince might want to give his sisters a greater share of the inheritance.



So yes, this relative of Gustav may try to get the Constitutional Court to rule. but I doubt it will change anything.

 

[Kataryn]

Prince Gustav can marry anyone he wishes. And he has the usufruct of the enormous fortune of his House. Little to complain, I would say. Note that his grandfather Prince Gustav Albrecht bypassed his very own son Prince Richard to make his then unborn future grandson Prince Gustav his heir. The one to "complain" was Prince Gustav's late father...

One can not complain too hard about a Will, when from day one of his very own life fully enjoying all the benefits of one of Germany's largest private fortunes and then "discovering" there are conditions to said benefits...

In such wills, the "Vorerbe" (here Prince Richard) actually looks after the inheritance and collected the free money (so glad he had gains, a lot of families struggle to make their historical inheritance work, so they can pay repairs and support of their land!) while he lived and only then the "aufschiebende Bedingung" that Gustav was the next heir came into effect.

Only then could this uncle start a feud involving the courts. That Richard let Gustav administer the estate had nothing to say about who actually was the owner!



To put it simply: the will influenced the family inheritance of the Berleburgs. As long as the Vorerbe lived, the inheritance was his to care for and to use up the "fruits". When the Vorerbe died, the Nacherbe (Gustav at that moment, if he fulfilled the other stipulations) really inherited. Thus, only Gustav must pay inheritance tax. Now Gustav can seek the dissolution of the family inheritance trust fund (which I call "collection" because Trust fond in the English meaning does not cover that construct) or try to get some things out of it to give to his sisters or other people. He can now marry whoever he wants. Not sure he can adopt and his new son can inherit.



As long as I have no idea when the "collection" was created and what is included and how the stipulations are, I cannot say more about it. And as this is private, the Berleburg don't need to give out that information.

 

[Kataryn]

I think its appalling. If he had put in a condition that the heir be a soldier, or that he should go to University, it would be tolerable.. but to say that he cannot marry someone who is "not noble" and not Aryan.. is not.

I think you don't understand the system that was in place within the nobility pre the end of the monarchies and which was held up by so many after that. My grandmother was kicked out of her noble family because she had married a nice and kind man without noble blood. Even today we are not recognised by our closer family from that side. My grandmother was so ashamed of that that she never told my mother about her heritage, though my mother herself was from a good family, who had lost their lands in WWII. Or maybe because of that. (Due to my grandmother working as housekeeper for an industrialist pre WWII, she and my grandfather could pay for my father's education and university studies, so he was considered "suitable" for my mother after WWII, when blood did not count so much but education). Mom only found out when she found the Aryan passport of my father which included part of my grandmother's lineage.


Only when the younger generation of the former Royal families started to marry young educated women, things changed. But without a monarch, some things were not so easily changed. EG Otto von Habsburg, the Head of the House, could agree to a marriage of his eldest son Archduke Karl with a mere Baroness. But as the new "empress in waiting" of the Habsburg could not prove an impeccable line of nobility up to the fourth generation, she could not become even a member of the Star-Cross-Order, which was founded in 1668 by then empress Eleonore, much less the highest lady of the Order. As Otto's wife was born a princess of Saxe-Meiningen, Karl's sister Gabriela had the amount of highest nobility in her lineage and became the Grandmistress of the order after her mother's death.



Or the current heir of the Bavaria Royal family after duke Franz (no children) and his brother Max (only daughters), Luitpold von Bayern lost his place in the succession when he married a Miss Wiegand, but when it turned out the line had to go through him, the marriage was declared valid according to the Wittelsbacher's laws and the existing children became dynasts. The eldest son is unmarried, but the second one married a Sayn-Wittgenstein-princess, so we will probably see the line continuing...

 

[Stefan]

I





Or the current heir of the Bavaria Royal family after duke Franz (no children) and his brother Max (only daughters), Luitpold von Bayern lost his place in the succession when he married a Miss Wiegand, but when it turned out the line had to go through him, the marriage was declared valid according to the Wittelsbacher's laws and the existing children became dynasts. The eldest son is unmarried, but the second one married a Sayn-Wittgenstein-princess, so we will probably see the line continuing...

Actually you have mixed things in the bavarian RF. From Prince Luitpold's three sons only the second Heinrich is married to a commoner Henriette Gruse.

The one who is married to a Berleburg Pricness is Prince Manuel the oldest son of Prince Lepold (Poldi) from the spanish brach. But this is branch is at the end of the succession line as between them and Prince Luitpold and his sons are the 3 sons of the late Prince Rasso from which one is a Priest and the others 2 both have each 3 sons.

 

[victor1319]

Look what popped up on Noblesse et Royautés today.
Gustav de Sayn-Wittgensetin-Berleburg : 2ème victoire devant ls tribunaux – Noblesse & Royautés
It appears Uncle Ludwig-Ferdinand does plan to take his beef further.

And rightfully so, I think!

The last will: In Germany we not only look for the exact words written down, but under what cirumstances and surroundings they were made and what was probably meant with them.

It is pretty clear, that the deceased Prince wanted his family to life on as a noble family!

But how can the family have further generations, if Prince Gustav is unwilling/unable/whatever to have kids at all - not to speak of noble kids?

Clearly - at least I think - the last will is not followed here!

 

[Denville]

I think you don't understand the system that was in place within the nobility pre the end of the monarchies and which was held up by so many after that. My grandmother was kicked out of her noble family because she had married a nice and kind man without noble blood. Even today we are not recognised by our closer family from that side. My grandmother was so ashamed of that that she never told my mother about her heritage, thhe Bavaria Royal family after duke Franz (no children) and his brother Max (only daughters), Luitpold von Bayern lost his place in the succession when he married a Miss Wiegand, but when it turned out the line had to go through him, the marriage was declared valid according to the Wittelsbacher's laws and the existing children became dynasts. The eldest son is unmarried, but the second one married a Sayn-Wittgenstein-princess, so we will probably see the line continuing...

If you see this as OK i cant' argue./...

 

[Heavs]

And rightfully so, I think!

The last will: In Germany we not only look for the exact words written down, but under what cirumstances and surroundings they were made and what was probably meant with them.

It is pretty clear, that the deceased Prince wanted his family to life on as a noble family!

But how can the family have further generations, if Prince Gustav is unwilling/unable/whatever to have kids at all - not to speak of noble kids?

Clearly - at least I think - the last will is not followed here!

I find it slightly ironic that when this will was written Prince Gustav wasn't even born and it was by no means certain that Prince Richard, himself young, would have a son at all.

He is able to pass on the property to family when he dies. Not marrying a noble Aryan woman and having babies doesn't mean he shouldn't inherit at all. I believe Prince Robin is theoretically still his heir at this point which keeps it in the family.

Also if Gustav wants to/is able to leave the property to his nephew for example, that nephew will have ruling dynasty cousins, even if they don't have the SWB name. Much closer to royalty than titles that went out of legal use 100 years ago. Even though I know it's the name and patrilineage that counts for many. And that countries with reigning dynasties have less complicated marriage requirements.

Even though I can understand your property, your right to add stipulations it gives off a creepy feeling of controlling events from beyond the grave.

 

[Stefan]

I find it slightly ironic that when this will was written Prince Gustav wasn't even born and it was by no means certain that Prince Richard, himself young, would have a son at all.

This is often done in noble Families like this. Also in the Thurn and Taxis Family it was done like this. Or in the Prussia family by Emperor Wilhelm II.

 

[Lady Daly]

Thank you so much Kataryn for adding further clarity and opinion. I really hope the Constitutional Court declines to take the case. Also for your parallels to the Thurn & Taxis family and their own challenges as I had followed their situation at the time.

 

[HRHAmie]

Hello All,

So just to put my two cents in...I believe Carina and Gustav are still together - albeit from afar at the least. I follow her on IG and she did a “intro” on her new gardening account. This is what she said:


theexpatgardener:

"I've been tagged with #meetthegardener, in order to reveal a tiny bit about my #theexpatgardener self, beyond the pictures on my feed...

Here goes...
I'm Carina and I spend most of my time on the gorgeous Jurassic coast in Dorset, England. I have two dogs who are always by my side and a boyfriend in Germany (whose three dogs are always by his side). I write children's books and opened this account so I wouldn't spam my readers with endless flower pics.

My cottage garden of two years is my first attempt at gardening in a space that is entirely mine - and I've fallen completely in love with my little flowering patch of English coast. I'm having such fun becoming a plant nerd and feel deeply indebted to all my lovely U.K. friends and the gardening knowledge they have so generously shared with newbie gardener me. This wonderful gardening culture I've found in the U.K. has taken deep roots within my heart and I'll always carry the joy it has given me, no matter where else I may also garden in the future."

Anyway it seems like they’re still together, but she does hint of having a garden that is “entirely hers” makes it sound like she didn’t have the freedom to do that at Berleburg Schloss? Maybe other liberties were not allowed as well? Might be a reason for her leaving...who knows!

It’s still a strange situation to me.

 

[Somebody]

Hello All,

So just to put my two cents in...I believe Carina and Gustav are still together - albeit from afar at the least. I follow her on IG and she did a “intro” on her new gardening account. This is what she said:


theexpatgardener:

"I've been tagged with #meetthegardener, in order to reveal a tiny bit about my #theexpatgardener self, beyond the pictures on my feed...

Here goes...
I'm Carina and I spend most of my time on the gorgeous Jurassic coast in Dorset, England. I have two dogs who are always by my side and a boyfriend in Germany (whose three dogs are always by his side). I write children's books and opened this account so I wouldn't spam my readers with endless flower pics.

My cottage garden of two years is my first attempt at gardening in a space that is entirely mine - and I've fallen completely in love with my little flowering patch of English coast. I'm having such fun becoming a plant nerd and feel deeply indebted to all my lovely U.K. friends and the gardening knowledge they have so generously shared with newbie gardener me. This wonderful gardening culture I've found in the U.K. has taken deep roots within my heart and I'll always carry the joy it has given me, no matter where else I may also garden in the future."

Anyway it seems like they’re still together, but she does hint of having a garden that is “entirely hers” makes it sound like she didn’t have the freedom to do that at Berleburg Schloss? Maybe other liberties were not allowed as well? Might be a reason for her leaving...who knows!

It’s still a strange situation to me.

Interesting piece. So, it kind of confirms that they are still in a relationship but with her living in the UK and him in Germany. It makes you wonder what made her leave Berleburg... A writing retreat wouldn't take years...

 

[MsJulie]

I have a question....in the US we have a thing called common law marriage, in some states. Two people live together for a certain amount Of time but never have a legal ceremony but are considered legally married.

Does Germany or England have this? If so, to prevent the common law marriage from being brought up by relatives maybe the separate residents, in 2 countries, keeps the relatives from filing complaints.


“Common law marriage is allowed in a minority of states. A common law marriage is a legally recognized marriage between two people who have not purchased a marriage license or had their marriage solemnized by a ceremony.” Not all states have this.

https://www.ncsl.org/research/human-services/common-law-marriage.aspx

 

[victor1319]

Prince Gustav is now the heir... but...

"Bunte online", the German tabloid, has in a recent article summed up the situation.
https://www.bunte.de/royals/royals-...t-er-erbt-das-schloss-doch-es-gibt-einen.html

The court OLG Hamm, a higher regional court, has decided, that Prince Gustav is the rightful heir to the castle, the estate and all else with a value of around half a billion Euro.

But: There is still not clear, if a marriage to Carina Axelsson would be against the last will and make all this void! And taken into account, that Carina is already 52 and childless with her Prince, it is totally unclear, who will be the heir of Prince Gustav, especially, who would be allowed to inherit the fortune, anyway..

 

[Biri]

Prince Gustav has four nephews.

 

[victor1319]

Prince Gustav has four nephews.

Well, he has a lot of relatives! For example his Danish ones, yes? His mother is a sister of the Queen of Denmark. What if he leaves everything to them? ... The legal quarrels are probably far from over!

 

[REAL COUNTESS]

He has two sisters, Pss Alexandra's first husband was a Count. Gustav's nephew is a Count as well, I don't see why he could not step in as the inheritor and so is Css Ingrid. Pss Nathalie's children as well I am sure they will not be left out. Money, lots of it brings out the worst in some people. Greed makes one bitter.

 

[Lady Daly]

"Bunte online", the German tabloid, has in a recent article summed up the situation.
https://www.bunte.de/royals/royals-...t-er-erbt-das-schloss-doch-es-gibt-einen.html

The court OLG Hamm, a higher regional court, has decided, that Prince Gustav is the rightful heir to the castle, the estate and all else with a value of around half a billion Euro.

But: There is still not clear, if a marriage to Carina Axelsson would be against the last will and make all this void! And taken into account, that Carina is already 52 and childless with her Prince, it is totally unclear, who will be the heir of Prince Gustav, especially, who would be allowed to inherit the fortune, anyway..

I don't think this is a new ruling is it? Didn't we hear about this back on July 30, 2020.
https://www.siegener-zeitung.de/bad...bschaftsstreit-entschieden_a205483?ref=curate

I think this is the ongoing same old, same old. Will Gustav marry Carina? Are they still together? Who will inherit?

 

[victor1319]

I think this is the ongoing same old, same old.

Yep, it looks, like you are right! It is old news. Looks like I fell for some click bait from "Bunte online".

Anyway: It brings up the "same old, same old" with the marriage and the heir-of-Gustav question, which are interesting nevertheless.

 

[Lady Daly]

Yep, it looks, like you are right! It is old news. Looks like I fell for some click bait from "Bunte online".

Anyway: It brings up the "same old, same old" with the marriage and the heir-of-Gustav question, which are interesting nevertheless.

Yes indeed, it does keep alive the unique situation. I wonder who is celebrating Christmas at Berleberg Castle. I used to enjoy the photos and articles when Gustav and Carina would decorate with the big indoor tree and the Christmas market in front of the Castle. I think last Christmas it was Gustav and one of the sisters, at least that was what was reported.

 

[maria-olivia]

His Mother and his new married Sister are in Denmark and Princess Nathalie ?
What a sad story !

 

[Somebody]

"Bunte online", the German tabloid, has in a recent article summed up the situation.
https://www.bunte.de/royals/royals-...t-er-erbt-das-schloss-doch-es-gibt-einen.html

The court OLG Hamm, a higher regional court, has decided, that Prince Gustav is the rightful heir to the castle, the estate and all else with a value of around half a billion Euro.

But: There is still not clear, if a marriage to Carina Axelsson would be against the last will and make all this void! And taken into account, that Carina is already 52 and childless with her Prince, it is totally unclear, who will be the heir of Prince Gustav, especially, who would be allowed to inherit the fortune, anyway..

Given that Gustav hasn't married her so far, I don't think that is his main worry - it is rather clear that he most likely won't have children of his own, so it won't be about ensuring 'legitimate off-spring'. So, indeed the question then is who will be his heir.

Is it all tied to the 'headship' of the house Sayn-Wittgenstein-Berleburg? In that case, it would need to go to a male-line descendant/prince of S-W-B I'd assume. If that is not a requirement, there is no reason why Count Richard (his nephew) can't be his heir.

 

[Denville]

Given that Gustav hasn't married her so far, I don't think that is his main worry - it is rather clear that he most likely won't have children of his own, so it won't be about ensuring 'legitimate off-spring'. So, indeed the question then is who will be his heir.

Is it all tied to the 'headship' of the house Sayn-Wittgenstein-Berleburg? In that case, it would need to go to a male-line descendant/prince of S-W-B I'd assume. If that is not a requirement, there is no reason why Count Richard (his nephew) can't be his heir.

I can't see what the whole thing is about. Dont understand it. Gustavs inheritance should not be based on who he marries. But if he and Carina have no children, why wont it go to one of his nephews?

 

[Somebody]

I can't see what the whole thing is about. Dont understand it. Gustavs inheritance should not be based on who he marries. But if he and Carina have no children, why wont it go to one of his nephews?

Given that his grandfather's inheritance was tied to conditions about whom he marries, unfortunately, that has been the reality in which he has lived his whole life.

In previous generations in a situation like this (when the head had no sons but his sisters did), the intended nephew would probably have been adopted to ensure that he would have the same titles and would carry on the family name.

 

[Denville]

Given that his grandfather's inheritance was tied to conditions about whom he marries, unfortunately, that has been the reality in which he has lived his whole life.

In previous generations in a situation like this (when the head had no sons but his sisters did), the intended nephew would probably have been adopted to ensure that he would have the same titles and would carry on the family name.

Frankly perhaps its me but if I had been in that position of someone telling me whom I could marry, and that they had to be Aryan, I'd walk out on the whole thing. I know that its a lot of money and property but I'm sure he has other money and that he could make a living without this property. Or if I'd been his girlfriend, I'd have walked out on him...Why should Carina have to not be married? She is a successful perosn in her own right...

 

[Heavs]

Both of them have evidently considered it was something they don't like but can live with. They've both had chances over the years to walk away from the relationship. It also seems Carina likes spending part of the year by herself writing at her retreat in Dorset so maybe whilst they'd like to be married parts of being unconventional work for them/her. She doesn't have to be there if she doesn't want to.

I've been on the "he should just walk away for her" train before but I'm sure I might feel differently if it was a lot of money/land/property/family memories I was giving up.

Apparently all his friends and relatives accept her as a common law wife and chatelain of Berlberg.

So it also seems that the next person to inherit the property might have to be S-W-B to keep it in the Paternal family? There's probably money that is detached from the property without making the estate impossible to run.