German Royal and Noble Titles & Protocols

[Hannah Gregory]

As Germany no longer (officially) have a raigning royal family, how are they organised or recognised? As there is no authoirty to say, who is a prince, princess, etc. How do they proove they're actually royal?

Do the German government recognise them in any capacity, either formally or informally? Are they given any priviligaes? Police escorts, Diplomatic immunity, diplomatic passports, etc?

Do any forigen govenments recognise them either formally or informally?

[Jason R Maier esq]

As best I know, in Germany . . . royal/noble titles are now part of the person's surname. And I think they're recognized informally by the state, but formal to a degree by other royal families.

[PrinceOfCanada]

Originally Posted by Jason R Maier esq

As best I know, in Germany . . . royal/noble titles are now part of the person's surname. And I think they're recognized informally by the state, but formal to a degree by other royal families.

Yes, that is the case; the title became part of the name some time ago. But to the best of my understanding, royal families throughout Europe ignore transitory laws of that nature.

[branchg]

The Government recognizes their titles only as a surname (i.e. Georg-Friedrich, Prinz von Preussen) which is permitted to be used on all legal documents such as passports, etc. They do not receive any diplomatic or protocol privileges, except in certain cases, at the invitation of The President of the Republic or a particular German state, they are granted some courtesies when The Queen or another head of state is visiting.

They have been periodic legal actions in the German courts with regard to the House Laws of various royal and ducal houses, which generally have been decided on by the courts based on historical documents and the will of the Head of the House.

[sinulord]

could anyone please explain the difference between prince/princess "zu" and prince/princess "von" (and the territorial designation)?

[Warren]

Basically, von = 'of' and zu = 'to'.
The definition from this site: The Germanic Titles and Appellations is as good as any...

VON
The most basic Title-particle of German(ic) nobility, translates into English as "of"
and can be equated to the French / Spanish / Latin "de, dela, du", Italian "di" and
the Polish suffix "ski or cki", and like those, not strictly an indicator of nobility.

Von may also appear as part of a non-noble family name.

To differentiate the two forms, it has been German-language
practice among the nobility to abbreviate the noble "von" as "v".

ZU
Literally meaning "to", the original use of "zu" rather than "von" in the
Titles of high nobility (Princely and Comital houses) indicated that the
ancestral property which served as the basis for the name was still in the
possession of the House (Fürst zu Stolberg, Fürst zu Leiningen etc).

Often it forms an accessory style (Graf von Harrach zu Rohrau und Thannhausen).

"zu" is also used with "von" to indicate the duality of origin and possession/rule
(eg Fürst von und zu Liechtenstein, meaning 'of and to' but more easily understood as 'of and at').

The comman belief that "zu" was a higher or more valued Title-particle than "von" has no basis.

[Jo of Palatine]

Originally Posted by Warren

ZU
Literally meaning "to", the original use of "zu" rather than "von" in the
Titles of high nobility (Princely and Comital houses) indicated that the
ancestral property which served as the basis for the name was still in the
possession of the House (Fürst zu Stolberg, Fürst zu Leiningen etc).

Often it forms an accessory style (Graf von Harrach zu Rohrau und Thannhausen).

"zu" is also used with "von" to indicate the duality of origin and possession/rule
(eg Fürst von und zu Liechtenstein, meaning 'of and to' but more easily understood as 'of and at').

The comman belief that "zu" was a higher or more valued Title-particle than "von" has no basis.

As an addition: in former Prussia and the Northern parts of Germany there were great estates that were entailed called Majorat. The "zu" indicated that the holder of this title belonged to the main branch, the one which held the estate. So the above mentioned Graf von Harrach's branch of the family held the estates of Rohrau and Thannhausen while the main branch would have been the Grafen von und zu Harrach because they held the Harrach-estate. In earlier times the "zu" was reserved for the eldest son and the daughters, later it was used to indictate a branch with its own possessions.

[Al_bina]

Originally Posted by Warren

...[snipped] The comman belief that "zu" was a higher or more valued Title-particle than "von" has no basis.

Our teacher of the German language was absolutely sure that "zu" for Princes and "von" for the rest ... as she used to explain to us.

[Jo of Palatine]

Originally Posted by Al_bina

Our teacher of the German language was absolutely sure that "zu" for Princes and "von" for the rest ... as she used to explain to us.

Then she was wrong. It is true that after 1806's Reichsdeputationshauptschluß, when most of the small, formerly independant prince- and dukedoms lost their territorial souverainity, the "zu" was used to mark this former souverainity (while the still reigning Houses only use the "von"). Eg the Fuerst zu Schaumburg-Lippe, meaning the Head of this family once ruled as a souverain over the princedom of Schaumburg-Lippe. So it is often used by mediatised families, especially those who could keep their palaces/estates within their former territory. But this is just one case of the usage and not all mediatised families used this form of title.

[Warren]

Schaumburg-Lippe is probably not the best example of this as the family continued to reign over the Principality until November 1918.

[Jo of Palatine]

Originally Posted by Warren

Schaumburg-Lippe is probably not the best example of this as the family continued to reign over the Principality until November 1918.

Okay, let's take the Hohenlohe and their different branches and try to figure out why they changed from "von Hohenlohe" to "zu Hohenlohe". And no, the reason is not (at least not in all cases) that they were elevated to Reichsfuersten... it is really confusing, so I doubt there is a real rule on that except speaking about territorial possessions.

[Al_bina]

I beg your pardon ... what does " Reichsfuersten" mean? As far as I can translate, it is "Imperial" + "Prince"

[Odette]

Am I correct to assume that titles are no longer recognized by the State but the various princely houses and dukedoms, still exist?
Perhaps in official papers the various houses cannot be recognized as Princes or Dukes, but these same families still have possesion of their castles and property and titles?
I believe I read that those families whose property was behind the iron curtain could get their family properties back after the reunification.
The Thurn and Taxis for example are known as princes even though the German State does not recognize their titles. Is this correct?
Is this also the reason why Princess Benedikte is still Princess of Danemark? If Prince Richard's title is not recognized she could lose the title of Princess by marrying him?

[Warren]

Originally Posted by Al_bina

..what does " Reichsfuersten" mean? As far as I can translate, it is "Imperial" + "Prince"

Yes, just that. Princes who were made 'Princes of the Empire' by the Holy Roman Emperor (who was later the Emperor of Austria). There are other Houses where the Princely rank comes from elsewhere, eg the Princely House von Wrede, a creation by the King of Bavaria in 1814, or Prince of Battenberg, a title granted by the Grand Duke of Hesse and by Rhine. Imperial Princes and Imperial Counts have a higher status.

[Stefan]

Originally Posted by Warren

Yes, just that. Princes who were made 'Princes of the Empire' by the Holy Roman Emperor (who was later the Emperor of Austria). There are other Houses where the Princely rank comes from elsewhere, eg the Princely House von Wrede, a creation by the King of Bavaria in 1814. Imperial Princes and Imperial Counts have a higher status.

Other cases are the Fürsten zu Castell-Castell and Castell-Rüdenhausen or the Fürsten zu Stolberg-Stolberg and Stolberg-Wernigerode.