German Royal and Noble Titles & Protocols

[MAfan]

I don't know exactly why al the members of this family are Furst or Furstin, but I don't think that it's because their is a bavarian title and not an austrian one.
About the other families whose members have this particular title, I know only the family of the Dukes of Hohenberg, whose members are Furst/Furstin, while the head if Duke.

 

[Stefan]

It's also the Case for the Urach's. There like why the Hohenbergs the head is Duke and the other members are Fürst/Fürstin. And for the Tecks it was also the Case.

 

[amedea]

But also Liechtensteins, Windish-graetz, Furstenbergs, Lobkowicz, Croys (just to say some) are all Princes (that's the same as Furst isn't it?): nobody mentioned them because the're meditized houses? or because there's a difference between "prince von und zu" and "prince zu"?

 

[MAfan]

Furst is the title, translated as Prince, for the Head of a Princely Family; other members of the family are Prinz/Prinzessin, except for some families (Wrede, Hohenberg, Urach) where all members are Fursten.
Another question is the difference between von, zu and von und zu (or vuz): von is linked to the place where the family come from, zu is linked to the place where the family live, vuz is linked to both (an example: Fursten vuz Liechtenstein, they come from Liechtenstein and they live and rule there).

 

[Next Star]

Question are there any German families that hold imperial highness and grand ducal highess in modern times?
Thanks in advance.

 

[MBGGfvB]

Georg Friedrich Prinz von Preussen is HI&RH.

 

[branchg]

Question are there any German families that hold imperial highness and grand ducal highess in modern times?
Thanks in advance.

No. The rank and style of Imperial Highness was limited to the Hohenzollerns of Prussia after they united the German duchies, principalities and kingdoms into the Empire under Wilhelm I in 1871.

Prior to the Empire, the members of the family were HRH as Prussia was a kingdom, a style they continued to use along with their imperial rank.

 

[Stefan]

No. The rank and style of Imperial Highness was limited to the Hohenzollerns of Prussia after they united the German duchies, principalities and kingdoms into the Empire under Wilhelm I in 1871.

Prior to the Empire, the members of the family were HRH as Prussia was a kingdom, a style they continued to use along with their imperial rank.

It was only the Crown Princely Couple who where Imperail and Royal Highness. All the other members of the prussian Royal Familiy where Royal Highness.

 

[Warren]

A further detail, only the Kaiser and Kaiserin and Crown Prince and Crown Princess had Imperial German titles: German Emperor and King of Prussia, and Crown Prince of the German Empire and of Prussia. The children of the Crown Prince were TRH Princes and Princesses of Prussia.

Prince Louis Ferdinand took the style and title of HI&RH Prince of Prussia as Head of the Imperial and Royal House of Prussia, and his grandson Georg Friedrich has followed suit.
.

 

[maria-olivia]

He is still HI&RH am sure Prince Georg will never marry a communor.
Why not Maria laura of Belgium or Alexandra of Luxembourg or Maria Anonciata of Liechtenstein ??
I wonder why Archiduke Otto allowed his son Karl's strange and impossible wedding ?
Karl will be a (divorced, he may not) but separeted Head of the Imperial House of Habsburg.

 

[MBGGfvB]

I think I'm correct when I say that there are two that are technically styled HI&RH. Georg Friedrich Prinz von Preussen and Archduke Dr. Otto von Habsburg. Is that right?

 

[Warren]

All Habsburg Archdukes and Archduchesses are HI&RH (Imperial of Austria, Royal of Hungary and Bohemia), including the Tuscan branch.

Why not Maria laura of Belgium or Alexandra of Luxembourg or Maria Anonciata of Liechtenstein ??

You've picked three Catholic Princesses for a Protestant Prince. Possible, but unlikely.

 

[maria-olivia]

Warren , correct , I forgot this. Are the Hohenzollern-Sigmaringen protestant too ??

 

[MAfan]

No, the Sigmaringen branch is Catholic...maybe the son of Hereditary Prince Carl Friedrich of Hohenzollern (his eldest son, born in 1987, I don't remember his name) can be a good choice for one of these Princess...

 

[Stefan]

He is still HI&RH am sure Prince Georg will never marry a communor.
Why not Maria laura of Belgium or Alexandra of Luxembourg or Maria Anonciata of Liechtenstein ??
I wonder why Archiduke Otto allowed his son Karl's strange and impossible wedding ?
Karl will be a (divorced, he may not) but separeted Head of the Imperial House of Habsburg.

That would be great matches and it would be great to have a marriage between the Royal Family of Prussia and the Habsburgs. In the past this was impossible becausde of the faith of the future children. For example Duchess Viktoria LUise of Brundwick tells in in one of her books that her brother Joachim fell in love with an Archduchess but a marriage was out of the Question because the Courts could not agree about the faith of the children of this marriage. The Hohenzollerns want the chuildren raised protestant and the Habsburgs catholic.

 

[Stefan]

All Habsburg Archdukes and Archduchesses are HI&RH (Imperial of Austria, Royal of Hungary and Bohemia), including the Tuscan branch.

You've picked three Catholic Princesses for a Protestant Prince. Possible, but unlikely.

In the past Georg Friedrich was linked to Princess Sophie of Isenburg who is catholic. I think in this day they would agree about a faith for children. They could still raise the sons protestant (as the would continie the Hohenzollern Family) and daughters catholic.

 

[susan alicia]

in other words non-reigning houses are more strict than those ruling? At the moment it is -as far as I know- a Christian would be fine.

 

[amedea]

...Duchess Viktoria LUise of Brundwick tells in in one of her books that her brother Joachim fell in love with an Archduchess but a marriage was out of the Question because the Courts could not agree about the faith of the children of this marriage.

That's intresting: can you remember which was the Archduchess?
A marriage of an Archduchess in a Protestant family had already happened: AD Valerie married in the Baden family. I am not sure but I think her children were raisen protestant. However seing an Habsburg raise her children as protestant still make some sense to me.

 

[Stefan]

No name was mentioned. Yes the Baden are protestant but the marriage was long after the fall of the austiran-hungarian Empire. Also Archduchess Eilika, nee Duchess of Oldenburg remained protestant and there was even a protestant Pastor at the marriage-ceremony. But also in the past some Archduchess remained oprotestant like Duchess Dorothea of Württemberg, third wife of Archudhcess Hoseph. But it was out of the question that their children would be raised catholic.
What i wanted to say that there was never a marriage betweeen the Habsburg and the Prussian Families.

 

[Von]

Deutsches Adelsrechtsausschuß and Cognatic Succession

I could use some help please. I was reviewing a copy of my families' letter patent which was created in Bavaria in the 1700s and have a couple questions maybe someone can help me with.

First, it talks about the titles and privileges being passed down to "all legitimate heirs, male and female, for time immemorial" and it says this a couple times in basically the same way " all legitimate descendants male and female for all time". Is this a cognatic (full linear) protocol? It seems pretty progressive for 1700.

My other question is whether anyone knows about the Deutsches Adelsrechtsausschuß? I understand from the internet that this is an authoritative body or group that confirms german nobility? Is this a legit organization? What's its purpose?

Thanks for the help.

 

[Liberacki]

Why the marriage of Adam Albert von Neipperg with Empress Marie Louise, former wife of Napoleon Bonaparte, was considered morganatic, as the Neipperg family was a mediatised comital family of the Holy Roman Empire?

 

[MissOpera]

My other question is whether anyone knows about the Deutsches Adelsrechtsausschuß? I understand from the internet that this is an authoritative body or group that confirms german nobility? Is this a legit organization? What's its purpose?

The German Adelsrechtsausschuss consists of the different nobility organizations of Germany. The members examine and decide in all the cases (cases like adoption, if you are able to have an emblem, if you are allowed to have that nobility name etc.) that concern nobility law, even without a request. They are also in charge of the genealogical handbook.

 

[Boquwa]

Then she was wrong. It is true that after 1806's Reichsdeputationshauptschluß, when most of the small, formerly independant prince- and dukedoms lost their territorial souverainity, the "zu" was used to mark this former souverainity (while the still reigning Houses only use the "von"). Eg the Fuerst zu Schaumburg-Lippe, meaning the Head of this family once ruled as a souverain over the princedom of Schaumburg-Lippe. So it is often used by mediatised families, especially those who could keep their palaces/estates within their former territory. But this is just one case of the usage and not all mediatised families used this form of title.

This message really made me curious because of the date 1806 and the statement "when most of small, formerly independant prince- and dukedoms lost their territorial souverainity.

Where can I find more information on this. We have a story in my family that I am trying to explore a little further. Could I be so lucky as to find out a list of names and locations for these events? Probably not. Any information you have for me would be helpful.

 

[fearghas]

this might help you: "Mediatize" -- what does it mean?

 

[MarleneKoenig]

Legally, Karl Friedrich is not a prince. He has the surname Fürst von Hohenzollern.

It's catholicism different in Germany from Italy, where I live, or it's different just for princes? A catholic blessing for remarried divorcees sounds very new and incoherent to me!

 

[Seraphine]

No that's wrong. In his passport his name is Karl Friedrich Prinz von Hohenzollern. German law doesn't know any noble titles. After 1918 the minor family title after the head became part of the name of all family members.

When there was a King, know the family members are prince and princess AND additional Duke and Ducches; except Würrtemberg - they call themselves only Duke and Ducches.
Example: Iris Prinzessin von Sachsen Herzogin zu Sachsen. Sophie Prinzessin von Bayern, Herzogin in Bayern.When there was a grandduke, today all are named as Duke of xyz like Friedrich Herzog von Oldenburg.

When there was a Fürst, today all are Prince and princess like Albert Prinz von Thurn und Taxis.

When there was a minor Fürst, today only the head is a prince and the rest Count(ess) like Donata Gräfin von Castell-Rhüdenhausen.

 

[Mermaid1962]

And this is precisely why I find this subject so confusing. There are so many families and titled that aren't "legal" but are still used.

 

[Stefan]

The Württemberg's are Duke/Duchess because they are no descendants of the 4 Kings. They are descending in the male-line of the brother of the first King. Only the descendants of the Kings where Prince/Princess.
As for the others it's not so easy. If you take the 6 Grand Ducal Houses from 3 (Baden, Hesse and by Rhine, Saxe-Weimar-Eisenach) the junior members are Prince/Princess.

 

[k8e86]

How is the GRAF name related to German royalty

Hi

I am just doing some research and am wondering if anyone knows how the GRAF surname is related to German royalty or nobilism. Does anybody know the name Catherine Fredricka GRAF and her son Fredrich eberhard GRAF. They supposedly escaped Germany during world war 2? How would this be possible to happen? I would really be interested in hearing any follow up in this area.

Thanks.

 

[Saschana]

I don't think the last name 'Graf' has anything to do with nobility at all. The last names 'Graf' (transl. Count), 'König' (king) and 'Kaiser' (emperor) are quite common in Germany. Most German names originate from the medieval times and usually the last names were given after the profession of the individual (so a cook's last name was 'Koch' (cook in German)). In other cases last names were given because of nicknames, either mocking names ('König' for someone who behaved like he felt he was someone better than the others but in reality had nothing to do with being a King) or nicknames for special jobs (often municipal administrators were called 'Graf' to show their special profession but again it didn't have anything to do with being either noble or royal; 'König' also sometimes originates from being a king but not the king of country but being the champion shot (Schützenkönig in German).
Additionally you would need to be the "Graf of something" to be noble.

As to the question of "escaping Germany"... If they were just more or less regular citizens then it wouldn't be too easy but certainly doable to have left Germany during the 2nd world war. "Escaping" sounds a lot like fleeing from prison (in this case concentration camp) that would indeed be remarkable.