The Royal Forums Coat of Arms


Join The Royal Forums Today
Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
 
  #61  
Old 03-15-2017, 04:15 PM
Serene Highness
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: philadelphia, United States
Posts: 1,408
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stefan View Post
It depends on the Will. We don't know if only the heir of Frst Gustav Albrecht is required to marry a noble, protestant and arian lady or ar also the second heir like it was in the Prussia Case. If it is only his heir then Prince Robin and his descendantsd would not be excluded.
I think we still don't know...someone says it only implies only to Prince Gustav and others that implies for anyone further who wants to be heir to his wast wealth.
__________________

Reply With Quote
  #62  
Old 03-15-2017, 04:23 PM
Stefan's Avatar
Super Moderator
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Esslingen, Germany
Posts: 4,134
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mbruno View Post
Excuse me, but what is an "Aryan lady" exactly ? Was Prince Richard's father a Nazi or something like that ?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marc23 View Post
Probably means from German/Austrian noble family...
It means not jewish. We have to remember that the Will was written dzuring the NS-time in Germany. during that time people had to proofe that they didn't marry jewish or part-jewish persons.
__________________

__________________
Stefan



Reply With Quote
  #63  
Old 03-15-2017, 04:25 PM
jen121419's Avatar
Aristocracy
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Madison, Wisconsin, United States
Posts: 233
So very sorry to hear the news.
Reply With Quote
  #64  
Old 03-15-2017, 05:34 PM
Serene Highness
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: philadelphia, United States
Posts: 1,408
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stefan View Post
It means not jewish. We have to remember that the Will was written dzuring the NS-time in Germany. during that time people had to proofe that they didn't marry jewish or part-jewish persons.
Oh yes, I think I remember that Marie Valerie zu Schleswig-Holstein had to prove that she is not of Jewish origin before her marriage to the Duke von Arenberg.

To prove that her aunts had to write letters from Great Britain in order to confirm it.
Reply With Quote
  #65  
Old 03-15-2017, 06:40 PM
JR76's Avatar
Royal Highness
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Malm, Sweden
Posts: 1,876
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marc23 View Post
Oh yes, I think I remember that Marie Valerie zu Schleswig-Holstein had to prove that she is not of Jewish origin before her marriage to the Duke von Arenberg.



To prove that her aunts had to write letters from Great Britain in order to confirm it.


That's correct, since she was born out of wedlock and raised by a Jewish family her aunts Princesses Helena Victoria & Marie Louise signed an affidavit confirming her parental lineage the result being she could marry an Aryan and also, more importantly, probably saved her from the horrors of the Final solution.

As someone stated here somewhere, some time ago, during the time when the will was written it was quite a common clause to include bans against non-aryan marriages since that could mean that the family estate was confiscated by the German government.
Reply With Quote
  #66  
Old 03-15-2017, 07:40 PM
Heir Presumptive
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Spring Hill, United States
Posts: 2,941
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mbruno View Post
Excuse me, but what is an "Aryan lady" exactly ? Was Prince Richard's father a Nazi or something like that ?
Yes, that is Nazi talk and he was a Nazi. So, all the hemming and hawing, he didn't want any 'inferior races or religions".
Reply With Quote
  #67  
Old 03-16-2017, 03:04 AM
Duc_et_Pair's Avatar
Majesty
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: City, Netherlands
Posts: 8,450
Quote:
Originally Posted by COUNTESS View Post
Yes, that is Nazi talk and he was a Nazi. So, all the hemming and hawing, he didn't want any 'inferior races or religions".
It is way too easy to claim someone is a Nazi. Note that the grandfather of Prince Gustav was custodian of an immense estate with historic heirlooms and large properties. He had hundreds of tennants and workers he felt responsible for.

Without symbolic statements like such a clausule, the Nazis could have blamed the Sayn-Wittgensteins of Deutschfeindlichkeit (hostility towards the true German patriottic cause) and therefore an enemy of the Nazi state. With this they would have an excellent "excuse" to extend their greedy hands towards the possessions of the House. With all consequences for the workers and tennants. McCarthyism in the USA of the 1950's was based on exactly the same sentiments (of someone not being a true US patriot and therefore a potential enemy to the state).

The grandfather of Prince Gustav started his career in the Army during the Weimar Republic and found himself transitioned into a Nazi Germany after Hitler's (democratic) victory. That he was a Rittmeister (Captain) of the Reserve of the 23. Panzer-Division of the Wehrmacht might sound impressive, but it would not have protected him or his family when the Nazis would have found an excuse to eliminate aristocrats.
Reply With Quote
  #68  
Old 03-16-2017, 04:40 AM
Serene Highness
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: philadelphia, United States
Posts: 1,408
Quote:
Originally Posted by COUNTESS View Post
Yes, that is Nazi talk and he was a Nazi. So, all the hemming and hawing, he didn't want any 'inferior races or religions".
Loving your nation or religion doesn't always mean you hate others...

Gustav Albrecht zu Sayn-Wittgenstein-Berleburg never was a member of the Nazi party. He even bought and privatized the local Jewish cemetery in Berleburg in order to save it from being destroyed by the Nazis.
Reply With Quote
  #69  
Old 03-16-2017, 06:30 AM
WreathOfLaurels's Avatar
Nobility
 
Join Date: Jun 2016
Location: Wellington, New Zealand
Posts: 473
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mbruno View Post
Prince Gustav's grandfather had plenty of time to change his will after the war, but he didn't do it, I don't buy the version that the controversial "Aryan " clause was inserted under duress.
Prince Gustav Albert was decelared MIA on the eastern front in 1944 and was only legally dead from 1969. Once a will has been made only the person who made it could change it meaning Richard could in reality do very little about it.

Can anyone explain why German estate law regarding wills is so strict? In some other countries a clause like that would be eaisly overturned as unreasonable. Doesn't it breach some anti-discrimination legalisation of some kind?
Reply With Quote
  #70  
Old 03-16-2017, 06:31 AM
Courtier
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: xxx, Finland
Posts: 851
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mbruno View Post
Prince Gustav's grandfather had plenty of time to change his will after the war, but he didn't do it, I don't buy the version that the controversial "Aryan " clause was inserted under duress.

The grandfather disappeared and was declared missing in action June -44 in Belarusia. He was officially declared dead January 1969.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gustav...tein-Berleburg
Reply With Quote
  #71  
Old 03-16-2017, 06:39 AM
Heir Apparent
 
Join Date: May 2014
Location: Pittsburgh, United States
Posts: 4,158
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nordic View Post
The grandfather disappeared and was declared missing in action June -44 in Belarusia. He was officially declared dead January 1969.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gustav...tein-Berleburg
I see. Thanks for the information.
Reply With Quote
  #72  
Old 03-16-2017, 07:56 AM
Duc_et_Pair's Avatar
Majesty
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: City, Netherlands
Posts: 8,450
Quote:
Originally Posted by WreathOfLaurels View Post
Prince Gustav Albert was decelared MIA on the eastern front in 1944 and was only legally dead from 1969. Once a will has been made only the person who made it could change it meaning Richard could in reality do very little about it.

Can anyone explain why German estate law regarding wills is so strict? In some other countries a clause like that would be eaisly overturned as unreasonable. Doesn't it breach some anti-discrimination legalisation of some kind?
The Will does not bar Prince Gustav to marry Ms Carina Axelsson, they can go to the municipal registrar right now. So they are not infringed in any right at all.

Carina is not Standesgem, a requirement set by the deceased. The question pops up whether it is unlawful when a deceased owner of a fortune has set a condition that the benefactors of his Will must contract a marriage which is in line with the longstanding tradition of his House?

What would we say when Prince Gustav is still unmarried but a younger brother had married indeed, with a lady meeting every requirement as set down by his grandfather in his Will? The deceased has left an imposing castle, a gigantic estate (the prince is one of Germany's largest private landowners) and a vast portfolio with real estate and investments. You can see why a younger brother would have challenged Gustav, like also his cousins from the Sayn-Wittgenstein-Hohenstein branch can do. It is not exactly about a fancy title, it is about real wealth, then we know enough...
Reply With Quote
  #73  
Old 03-16-2017, 11:37 AM
Majesty
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: san diego, United States
Posts: 7,565
"His Highness Prince Richard's funeral
His Highness Prince Richard interred Tuesday, March 21 at. 14.00 from Evangelische Stadtkirche Bad Berleburg, Germany."
Hans Hjhed Prins Richards bisttelse | Kongehuset

We'll see who of the DRF attends, so far in the calendar on the 21st, Mary and Joachim have events listed
Reply With Quote
  #74  
Old 03-16-2017, 01:04 PM
Stefan's Avatar
Super Moderator
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Esslingen, Germany
Posts: 4,134
An interesting documentary about the Family from a few years ago
https://vimeo.com/87259683?ref=fb-share&1
__________________
Stefan



Reply With Quote
  #75  
Old 03-16-2017, 03:40 PM
FasterB's Avatar
Serene Highness
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Copenhagen, Denmark
Posts: 1,427
Sorry, but all the magazines here in DK keeps writing that Prince Gustav now has inherited the Berleburg Estate. But wasn't it his (Prince Gustav) from birth? IIRC then Prince Richard's father did the will so it wasn't Prince Richard who inherited the estate, but the first male grand child i.e. Prince Gustav.
__________________
Where charity and love are, God is there.
Reply With Quote
  #76  
Old 03-16-2017, 04:38 PM
WreathOfLaurels's Avatar
Nobility
 
Join Date: Jun 2016
Location: Wellington, New Zealand
Posts: 473
Quote:
Originally Posted by Duc_et_Pair View Post
The Will does not bar Prince Gustav to marry Ms Carina Axelsson, they can go to the municipal registrar right now. So they are not infringed in any right at all.

Carina is not Standesgem, a requirement set by the deceased. The question pops up whether it is unlawful when a deceased owner of a fortune has set a condition that the benefactors of his Will must contract a marriage which is in line with the longstanding tradition of his House?

What would we say when Prince Gustav is still unmarried but a younger brother had married indeed, with a lady meeting every requirement as set down by his grandfather in his Will? The deceased has left an imposing castle, a gigantic estate (the prince is one of Germany's largest private landowners) and a vast portfolio with real estate and investments. You can see why a younger brother would have challenged Gustav, like also his cousins from the Sayn-Wittgenstein-Hohenstein branch can do. It is not exactly about a fancy title, it is about real wealth, then we know enough...
I was talking about the aryan clause not the equal birth one, given that the concept of Aryanism it's basically pseudoscience. I was raising the point that the marriage clauses in a lot of these wills are often based on shaky logic by today's standards and that in some cases unreasonable clauses can be overridden with out necessary invalidating the entire will - meaning the estates would not be split up under current inherentance law; or that they might be overriddedn by certain elements of EU human rights law or German constitutional law which would take precedent over the will - the fact the will was made under the nazi's must count for something under German law as there is often a lot of clauses over the nullity of certain things done under 'criminal regimes' i.e. The nazi's and East German communists.
Reply With Quote
  #77  
Old 03-16-2017, 05:56 PM
Serene Highness
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Stockholm, Sweden
Posts: 1,184
I thought the swedish King and Queen would attend Prince Richard's funeral but they are both busy on Tuesday. The swedish RF is close to the Berleburgs so i would be quite surprised if no one attends.
Reply With Quote
  #78  
Old 03-16-2017, 06:59 PM
maria-olivia's Avatar
Heir Apparent
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Brussels, Belgium
Posts: 5,030
Thanks for the Documentary of the whole Family. Father and Son were close to-gether.
Now I may understand that Prince Richard did not like the Royal Danish Protocole.
Reply With Quote
  #79  
Old 03-16-2017, 06:59 PM
GmdNatt's Avatar
Serene Highness
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Cincinnati, United States
Posts: 1,223
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hans-Rickard View Post
I thought the swedish King and Queen would attend Prince Richard's funeral but they are both busy on Tuesday. The swedish RF is close to the Berleburgs so i would be quite surprised if no one attends.
to be fair, it was only just announced. We'll see as the week goes on if they reschedule or if someone will be announced to attend.
__________________
My facebook fan page: https://www.facebook.com/SignyCullen
Author of fiction novel Farther Side of Away, and non-fiction book about royalty If You're a Princess, Where's Your Crown?
Reply With Quote
  #80  
Old 03-16-2017, 07:42 PM
WreathOfLaurels's Avatar
Nobility
 
Join Date: Jun 2016
Location: Wellington, New Zealand
Posts: 473
**θανε ο πρίγκιπας Ρίτσαρντ, σύζυγος της πριγκίπισσας Βενεδίκτη της Δανίας ‹ The Royal Chronicles

Royal Chronicals article on Prince Richard's death
__________________

Reply With Quote
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Princess Benedikte & Prince Richard zu Sayn-Wittgenstein-Berleburg: 1968 SpiffyBallerina Royal Weddings 21 02-16-2018 06:57 PM
Prince Manuel of Bavaria & Princess Anna zu Sayn-Wittgenstein-Berleburg 2005 Hannelore Weddings: Non-Reigning Houses & Nobility 131 04-23-2015 12:04 AM
Princess Filippa zu Sayn-Wittgenstein-Sayn & Count Vittorio Mazzetti d'Albertis 2001 Elsa M. Weddings: Non-Reigning Houses & Nobility 21 06-17-2007 12:29 PM
Erbprinz Heinrich zu Sayn-Wittgenstein-Sayn & Countess Priscilla della Rocchetta 2003 Elsa M. Weddings: Non-Reigning Houses & Nobility 5 04-15-2006 03:09 PM




Popular Tags
antony armstrong-jones british royal family britishroyals camilla clothes commonwealth games crown princess victoria current events current events thread daughters denmark documentary duchessofcambridge duchess of sussex duke of cambridge duke of york dutch royal family fashion felipe vi forum general royal discussion genetics gloucester gordon hasnat khan iaki urdangarn jack brooksbank juan carlos kate middleton king felipe and queen letizia current events king willem-alexander ladies-in-waiting letizia meghan markle member monarchy porphyria prince charles prince charles; biographies; tom bower prince harry prince harry of wales prince laurent princenapoleon prince of belgium princess alexia princess beatrice princess claire princess diana princess eugenie queen elisabeth queen elizabeth queen maxima quizz remarriage royal royal ancestry royal geneology royal wedding sarah duchess of york state visit surname sweden swedish royal family swedish royal registry tradition visit from spain visit from sweden wedding windsor castle windsor wedding



Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -4. The time now is 10:10 AM.

Social Knowledge Networks

eXTReMe Tracker
Powered by vBulletin
Copyright ©2000 - 2018
Jelsoft Enterprises