Titles, Surname and Protocols for the Royal Family

[Alexandria]

Does this mean that the offspring of Pavlos's children and their children and their children, et. al. could continue to infinitely use the Prince and Princess title even in a courtesy manner?

This is what I find confusing about this entire situation -- how it is that the Crown Prince of a disposed monarchy could pass on titles to his offspring.

You can see that even in reigning monarchies the children of princes do not automatically get the title of prince or princesses. For example, in the Netherlands, Prince Constantijn, son of the Queen and the fourth in line to the throne, his two children have the title of Countess Eloise and Count Claus-Casimir rather than Princess Eloise and Prince Claus-Casimir. Granted Constantijn is the youngest son and not the Crown Prince as Pavlos is -- although Pavlos as Crown Prince is rather a moot point since he'll never inherit the throne.

It would seem to me that if you just read cursory mentions of Constantijn and Pavlos' children, it would seem that Constantijn's children would have lesser titles than Pavlos' children, which technically wouldn't be accurate.

Right? Or have I completely muddled up everything? (At any rate I am learning a lot from everyone here; this issue endlessly fascinates me!)

 

[Anna_R]

Yes, in Spain it doesn't happen either. Although the siblings of monarchs get dukedoms upon marriage, those are not hereditary, they just come back to the state after the passing of their beholders.
Neither one of Juan Carlos siblings or grandchildren have titles. Their grandchildren have the distinction of "Great of Spain" and treatment of Excellence, but they're not princes or princesses. This is rather confusing...
Just another comment, Queen Anne-Marie is originally a Princess of Denmark, she didn't lose the title upon marriage. Aren't all of her children Princes of Denmark by birth?
I remember someone mentioning something in the lines of "Princes of Denmark" and "Princes to Denmark" but I didn't quite get what's the difference.

 

[branchg]

Anne-Marie remains HRH Princess of Denmark (as the daughter and sister of Danish Sovereigns), however, her children hold the title Prince/Princess of Greece and Denmark as a courtesy style through King Constantine. As an example, Pavlos, Prince of Greece and Denmark (similar to a surname). They are not HRH, but considered to be members of the extended royal family of Denmark.

 

[branchg]

Well, since Pavlos is the eldest son and heir to the Head of the Royal House of Greece, it is considered appropriate royal protocol that his children are known by their courtesy titles as Prince/Princess of Greece and Denmark.

The matter is less clear for Constantine and Anne-Marie's other children, but as a general rule, these grandchildren may also have the right to carry courtesy titles. Such matters often depend on the Rules of the Royal House in question and the tradition of the monarchy while it still reigned.

I would think all of King Constantine's future grandchildren through the male line would be known as Prince/Princess of Greece and Denmark as his wish, but it is possible he could grant them another style and title (or none) as Head of the House. This is all within his perogative.

 

[Sean.~]

The general rule of thumb is that only those styles that were in use at the time of the monarchy be used by a house exile or after the end of the monarchy, and that the house laws in effect at the fall of the monarchy be followed as much as possible in order to maintain some legitimacy. Thus I doubt other styles and titles will be created, as there were no titles of nobility permitted in Greece. Similarly, the rules governing succession to the headship of the house are likely to remain same (e.g. the former Romanian King will not name his daughter "Crown Princess" because the Romanian constitution forbade female succession).

 

[Alisa]

I remember someone mentioning something in the lines of "Princes of Denmark" and "Princes to Denmark" but I didn't quite get what's the difference.

" Prince(ss) til Denmark " are those that have succession rights and "Prince(ss) af Denmark" don't.
When Queen Anne-Marie got married she renounced her succession rights (and consequently those of her descendants) she thus went from a "Princess til Denmark" to a "Princess af Denmark".
Queen Anne-Marie's children are also Princess of Denmark but that is from the Greek title, it is completely independent of the fact that Queen Anne-Marie is a Danish Princess.

 

[Frothy]

Well, since Pavlos is the eldest son and heir to the Head of the Royal House of Greece, it is considered appropriate royal protocol that his children are known by their courtesy titles as Prince/Princess of Greece and Denmark.

No, it isn't. There is no royal house of the Republic of Greece, and it is not appropriate to call Pavlos a Prince of a republic - as the Greek ambassadors protest on behalf of the Greek people. Let's not forget that the choice to be a republic was overwhelming in the referendum they had. Their choice matters! BUT I'm still trying to get a legal answer from someone as to if he's a Prince of Denmark at all, or if that title died when the Greek title died upon proclamation of the Republic of Greece. Pavlos is heir to nothing as far as Greece goes and his children are heirs to nothing.

 

[Frothy]

I feel like I'm a voice in the wilderness a bit, but what is meant here by 'courtesy'? Exactly the opposite, discourtesy, is shown to the Greeks by any reference to these guys as Kings and Princes of their freely chosen Republic?

It's so rude to them. No wonder their representatives protest.

 

[H.M. Margrethe]

These magazines are often not authorities on such matters...

Well Sean i have to say one thing to you about the magazin: That person i was mailing my question is one of the most reliable person about the history in the Danish Royal Family. He is a former journalist and has been adviser for the 2 biggest TV stations DR and TV2 when ther is an occasion in the Royal family.
His name is Poul Jørgnsen...I think that the Danish members of this forum knows him like i do.

 

[MoonlightRhapsody]

I am so unbelievably confused after reading this page of posts!

Anyway, adding my two cents in for the original topic of the thread...I don't like Marie-Chantal. Granted, I don't really know the woman, but my impressions of her are not positive ones. From what I've seen, she likes to flaunt her family and her position as a member of the non-reigning Greek Royal family and her title as Crown Princess in magazines. And even her title isn't hers. It's a courtesy title and it's Crown Princess Pavlos, not Crown Princess Marie-Chantal; it's not even her own. Bah, I just don't like her.

Anyway, continue the topic of what her children are called; I'm still pretty confused! I'm a visual learner and a diagram would be helpful (just kidding...)

 

[oxynia]

My understanding of the whole title subject is this: upon being deposed, Constantine and his family lost the HRH standing (much like Diana did upon divorce from Charles). He is still called "king" in certain circles as a courtesy (yes, I too hate that word as it is indeed a discourtesy to me and my fellow Greeks who simply refer to him as the ex-king, but there you have it).

However, since hereditary titles are abolished in Greece, no-one subsequently born to or married into the family is entitled to a title of any sort. That includes Constantine's younger children and children-in-law (including M-C...sorry lady, you're just Mrs. Glucksburg). Certainly none of them can be considered HRH by any definition. It's only the other royals of Europe who continue to regard them as such, as there but for the grace of God go themselves... It's an act of self-preservation on their part.

Constantine and his family are no longer royal. Period. You simply cannot be king of a republic. He needs to wake up and smell the ouzo.

 

[Idriel]

I feel like I'm a voice in the wilderness a bit, but what is meant here by 'courtesy'? Exactly the opposite, discourtesy, is shown to the Greeks by any reference to these guys as Kings and Princes of their freely chosen Republic?
It's so rude to them. No wonder their representatives protest.

So do you think we French should be offended to have people calling themselves 'count of Paris', 'Jean of France', etc. when we axed our monarchy centuries ago? And what about the imperial family of Austria? the royal family of Bavaria? And so on.
Maybe you think only members of reigning family should carry titles? Do I understand your point?
Because if it's not the case, I don't see why Pavlos and MC should not be allowed to carry tiltles and styles just like dozens of other European "royals" from axed royal families.
And to answer the thread, this MC irritates me very much. Her hubby seems nice though.

 

[marlene]

Why are we calling MC and her family the Glucksbergs? Did I miss something?

 

[Idriel]

Why are we calling MC and her family the Glucksbergs? Did I miss something?

That's their family name. To fully understand, take a look at this excellent tread: The real name of Royal families, at Royal Chit Chat.
Here a link: http://www.theroyalforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1184

You'll see, it's very informative.

 

[EmpressRouge]

In interviews, he mentions wanting to return to Greece and live as an average citizen, but that's very hard to buy if one keeps wanting himself addressed as King. He likes to remind people that the Greek republic is not the most stable gov't in the world, and that he's still around if the people wanted him back. But I doubt that because today's Greek gov't is probably much more stable than it was during Constantine's reign. Other former rulers who had longer reigns than he did have dutifully accepted their new status, adopted last names, and were welcomed back to their countries as citizens. Constantine could do the same if he wanted to.

 

[Reina]

Could someone enlighten me as to how KC got involved in the political affairs? Thank you.

 

[EmpressRouge]

Could someone enlighten me as to how KC got involved in the political affairs? Thank you.

From what I've read, Constantine was very popular when he first became king. The Greeks saw him as a young, fresh, foward-thinking monarch, but Constantine decided to rule instead of just reign like other constitutional monarchs. He and his mother, Queen Frederika, were heavily involved in the day-to-day politics of Greece. Unfortunately, he frequently clashed w/ the Prime Minister, George Papandreou, which led to great instability in the government and the military. Eventually that allowed a military group knowns as the Colonels overthrew the government in a coup d'etat. Constantine tried to take back power in a counter-coup, which failed miserably, and he and his family were forced to flee. Many Greeks blamed him for the instability that led to the coup and following dictatorship and saw him as a coward for fleeing the country. If you compare Constantine's actions to those of his brother-in-law Juan Carlos after the restoration of the Spanish monarchy, you can see the contrast in the fates of these monarchies.

 

[Lourdes]

I have a solution for Constantine....Move to Greece and meet with Greek parliment to pledge his solidarity to Greece. Become a private citizen of Greece. Run for public office in Greece, win and live their comfortably. Other former monarchs have done this and been successful.

 

[Incas]

Not likely. That will make him face exactly how much or little the Greek actually care for him. Somehow, I don't think he can bear the latter reaction.

 

[Lady Marmalade]

Yes, but there were issues from the very beginning when the Greeks chose the Danish prince to be their King George I...

It seemed like an uncomfortable and unstable relationship from the start with that throne.

But, they perservered for as long as they could.

I like MC and Pavlos...and Alexia....

 

[fandesacs2003]

And a last word. For me it is normal for her to be called "royal highness" it's a courtesy title without any rights. Caroline of Monaco, who married the head of the House of Hannover, became a Royal Highness, despite that Hannover it's not a kingdom since one century, but EA is still a Royal highness, and he will still continue to be. In the same way MC could have this title.

But in the other hand, EA & Caroline are PRINCES but not Crownprinces, so why Pavlos & MC are CROWNprinces? for this I do not agree, as legally & Constitutionnally, Greece is not a Kingdom anymore!!

 

[Warren]

But in the other hand, EA & Caroline are PRINCES but not Crownprinces, so why Pavlos & MC are CROWNprinces? for this I do not agree, as legally & Constitutionnally, Greece is not a Kingdom anymore!!

You've answered your own question. Legally and constitutionally Pavlos and Marie Chantal are not Crown Prince and Crown Princess of Greece. However, these are titles and constitutional legalities are not relevant. Pavlos was born a Crown Prince and retains the title to this day. Similarly, Royal Highness is a style and a courtesy. Within a certain social caste these things are relevant and important, to many other people they are not. Don't worry about it.

 

[fandesacs2003]

Thanks for clarifying. I've cought the difference between Pavlos and EA. It's like be a President. Once you have been a President you keep the title for your entire life. EA was never a CP, Pavlos yes!
I do not worry, I also believe that courtesy is important, and if I meet MC i'll call her "Royal highness", why not?
Once I've met Queen Sophia, she is wonderfull and lovely, I've even tried to make a short reverence!!! I did not learn to do it, but I tried, I respect her and her title.

 

[LauraMCS]

EA's HRH style is still valid because the Hanovers are also Princes of Great Britain and Northern Ireland.

 

[Idriel]

EA's HRH style is still valid because the Hanovers are also Princes of Great Britain and Northern Ireland.

cough***there are not***cough.

1. The HRH style is reserved to:

• the children of a sovereign
• the children of sons of a sovereign (that is, grandchildren in the male line of a sovereign)
• the eldest living son of the eldest son of the Prince of Wales (alt.talk.royalty)

So unless lilibeth have a 'little' secret p), Ernst is not more of a RH than Pavlos.

2. Actually even their Prince of Great Britain and Northern England title has no legal basis. Granted, Ernst is direct descendant to Queen Victoria through male line and is on the list of the British succession. But this title was auto-awarded by one of his ancestor, who, when the the monarchy was abolished, proclaimed that his family will be know as Princes of the UK bla bla bla...
The thing is Kings of Hanover are not Kings of England and they have no right to grant themselves British titles.
It's about as legal as if E II declared tomorrow that she shall be HIH princess Elizabeth of Japan, because she likes the sound of it.

 

[branchg]

From a legal standpoint, Ernst-August is no longer a Royal Highness and Prince of the UK because the Titles Deprivation Act removed his family from the peerage and stripped their British titles, honors and royal rank for supporting Germany during World War I.

However, because Ernst's father won a lawsuit in the UK under the Sophia Naturalization Act in the 60's, the family's British citizenship was restored as the lineal descendants of the Electress Sophia. At that time, he issued a royal decree stating all members of the family would continue to be styled HRH and Prince/Princess of Great Britain and Ireland.

The Queen did not object (which she most certainly could have as the Sovereign) and they have continued to seek her permission to marry under the Royal Marriages Act. As the direct descendants of George III, it seems HM is willing to allow the Hanovers to retain their historical styles, but they hold no rank or title in the UK.

 

[branchg]

Ernst is not more of a RH than Pavlos.

Not true. The Hanovers are Royal Highnesses by assent from the Queen, although they hold no British honours officially. The Greek Royal House is part of the Danish Royal Family as well, but are not permitted to be Royal Highnesses under their rules (with the exception of Anne-Marie, who remains HRH Princess of Denmark as the daughter and sister of Danish Sovereigns).

 

[Roxsteve]

Gee, I miss the days when a king was a king and a prince was a prince regardless of what the people thought of them. Louis XVI and Marie Antoinette weren't any less of a king and queen because people hated them. Before those things like revolutions and modern republics and democracies, men were kings because GOD wanted them to be. It was refreshing in its simplicity.

Well, now the "princes" and "princesses" are marrying people who are not royal and, therefore, there is more of a chance for people to question "monarchies." Kings and queens were well respected. Today, you have a Mette-Marit, who is now the image of purity, when she was actually a party girl...far from a princess behavior...Then you have Letizia who was married before and no one ever heard about her ex again. Then you have Maxima whose father had something to do with Videla in Argentina, etc. These things cause people to talk...it is just human nature...

 

[kelly9480]

The Hannovers' HRH comes from Hannover (George V made them HH in the UK in 1914 and took it away 3 years later). The Queen has no right to assent or dissent to the HRH use, except when it's used in the UK. She chooses to let it slide, but, since Ernst is the head of a royal house (even though it's been deposed for going on a century), there's not really much of anything she could do about it anyways.

 

[Idriel]

Branchg, thank you for your much detailed previous post.

Not true. The Hanovers are Royal Highnesses by assent from the Queen, although they hold no British honours officially.

I don't understand how this is possible. What do you mean 'by assent from the Queen'?

The Hannovers' HRH comes from Hannover (George V made them HH in the UK in 1914 and took it away 3 years later). The Queen has no right to assent or dissent to the HRH use, except when it's used in the UK. She chooses to let it slide, but, since Ernst is the head of a royal house (even though it's been deposed for going on a century), there's not really much of anything she could do about it anyways.

The very point. Hanover has not been a monarchy for over a century now, and titles and styles are illegal in Germany. Legally, Ernst (just like pavlos BTW), holds no titles or styles. Some people object that he does have a real title as he is a British Prince (not legal basis to this claim, but as Branchg explained, the Queen did not object). As for the RH, he is a RH neither in Germany (not legal) nor in the UK (not a child-grandson of the Queen).