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  #141  
Old 04-20-2008, 07:32 PM
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Apparently, all the children of King Constantine & Queen Anne-Marie use the titles of princes/princesses of Greece and Denmark according to people who know them.
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  #142  
Old 04-21-2008, 03:50 AM
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From Wikipedia: Before 1953, various descendants of King Christian IX had succession rights in Denmark. The new Act of Succession terminated those rights but left the individuals involved in possession of their titles. This created a class of people with royal titles but no rights to the throne. As a distinction, those entitled to inherit the throne are called "Prins til Danmark" (Prince to Denmark, although this distinction is not made in English) while those without succession rights are referred to as "Prins af Danmark" (Prince of Denmark).



So the Greeks, if one were to read about them in a Danish language text, would be, for example, Kronprins Pavlos af Grækenland, Prins af Danmark, while Christian is Prins Christian til Danmark
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  #143  
Old 04-21-2008, 09:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by serenissima View Post
Apparently, all the children of King Constantine & Queen Anne-Marie use the titles of princes/princesses of Greece and Denmark according to people who know them.
What various personages want or would want to be known as and what legitimacy and legality determine are two distinct issues.
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  #144  
Old 04-21-2008, 12:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by morhange View Post
From Wikipedia: Before 1953, various descendants of King Christian IX had succession rights in Denmark. The new Act of Succession terminated those rights but left the individuals involved in possession of their titles. This created a class of people with royal titles but no rights to the throne. As a distinction, those entitled to inherit the throne are called "Prins til Danmark" (Prince to Denmark, although this distinction is not made in English) while those without succession rights are referred to as "Prins af Danmark" (Prince of Denmark).
I took the liberty to bold and italicize what is exactly the crux of the issue, i.e. personages who were born prior to 1953 and thus, when the Act of Succession was passed (in 1953), were in possession of title of Prins/esse til Danmark. As of 1953, such personages, i.e. the descendants of King Christian IX but who were not issue of King Christian X and Queen Alexandrine, as the then Diadoch Constantine of Greece, Princesses Sofia and Yriny of Greece and Princes Peter and Michael of Greece, ceased to be constitutional Princes/ses of Denmark (ie, til=to) and became automatically courtesy* Princes/ses of Denmark (ie, af=of).

To make the point crystal-clear, the til and af Danmark, as used in Denmark in conjunction with the prince/ss title, correspond to what in the English language are periphrastically referred to as prince/ss in his own right (a constitutional prince/ss - a dynast) and prince/ss by marriage/association (courtesy prince/ss - a non-dynast), respectively.

By definition, however, a holder of a courtesy title has no own dynastic right to transfer her/his title to one's issue. Said differently, the children of King Constantine were not born princes/ses til Danmark since, at their birth, both their father had ceased to be a Danish dynast and the 1953 Succession Act precluded that altogether. Lastly, I am not aware of princes/ses af Danmark born to princes/ses who were mere princes/ses af Danmark.

Therefore, unless HM The Queen of Denmark decides, through letters patent or some other Danish royal prerogative provided for by the Danish Constitution, to confer officially courtesy titles to them, the children of King Constantine are not princes/ses either til or af Danmark. Should there be a way for HM The Queen to do so, it would complicate matters for, in such case, the children of Princess Benedikte - who after all remains a princess til Danmark, could and would also have similar expectations, etc etc.

* Here the term courtesy prince is used (see unabridged Merriam-Webster) to imply presence of official right but absence of legal meaning/significance. For example, Prince Henrik af Danmark and Princess Mary af Danmark are not dynasts - they may not issue princes/ses in their own right.
By the way, a courtesy title is inferior to ad personam titles. For example, the Infanta Elena of Spain is the ad personam Duchess of Lugo. Her title is for her only and cannot be inherited, but (she) shall remain so for life, whether she divorces or remarries. On the other hand, Princess Alexandra of Denmark lost her courtesy title of princess the very moment she remarried. So a courtesy title, apart from legally meaningless may also be conditional.
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  #145  
Old 05-14-2008, 07:33 PM
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I have an off topic question about the Greek children's births but wasn't sure where else to put it.

I had been under the impression that in order to ascend to a throne, a royal had to be born in the country it would rule. For example, one of the Dutch princesses born during the second world war was born in Canada but the Canadian government had the hospital room temporarily made Dutch soil so that, if the baby was a boy, he would still be able to claim the throne. So my question is, how can the children of Pavlos be heirs if none of them were born in Greece? I know this is a bit of a moot point considering they are in exile and will probably never rule but I am still curious.
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  #146  
Old 05-15-2008, 07:12 AM
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I don't know what the former Greek constitution had to say on the matter, but since Greece is a republic the present constitution wouldn't cover royal succession. Not every monarchy insists its future monarch is born on home soil. For the heirs of former monarchies the term "de jure King [etc]" covers their position without them claiming to be "the King". In any case, Constantin remains the heir, after his father, to the Headship of the Royal House of Greece which is a slightly different issue.
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  #147  
Old 05-15-2008, 07:45 AM
Aristocracy
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Principessa Cano View Post
I have an off topic question about the Greek children's births but wasn't sure where else to put it.

I had been under the impression that in order to ascend to a throne, a royal had to be born in the country it would rule. For example, one of the Dutch princesses born during the second world war was born in Canada but the Canadian government had the hospital room temporarily made Dutch soil so that, if the baby was a boy, he would still be able to claim the throne. So my question is, how can the children of Pavlos be heirs if none of them were born in Greece? I know this is a bit of a moot point considering they are in exile and will probably never rule but I am still curious.
I think it depends on the succession laws of the different countries in question.
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  #148  
Old 05-16-2008, 10:31 AM
Aristocracy
 
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This is an easy question to answer based on precedent.
Indeed, the old Greek Constitutions did not carry any limitations in this respect.
Moreover, princess Yriny who, from March 1964 until Summer of 1965 (date of birth of princess Alexia) was constitutionally the Diadoch (ie Heir to the Throne of Greece) had been born in South Africa where the Royal Family of Greece was residing in exile during the German Occupation.
At any rate, I am not sure whether the Constitution of any European monarchy requires(d) specifically that the heir be born on national soil. In certain situations, as in the case of Prince Alexander of Yugoslavia, special arrangements were made so that the heir be born on transiently national soil - but this was done for sentimental rather than legal/constitutional reasons.
King George VI declared temporarily the Claridge's Hotel as Yugoslav soil in order for the birth of King Peter and Queen Alexandra's first (and only) child to occur on Yugoslav soil.
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  #149  
Old 06-16-2008, 03:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Empress View Post
So, I've never understood exactly why Greek princes and princesses are entitled to the title of Prince(ss) of Denmark. Call me silly, and I am sure I read it somewhere once, but I really can't remember. Has it something to do with a previous King coming from Denmark? And would that style not eventually die out?
The of-Denmark style was first and foremost a security measure,
if you like, insisted upon by King Christian IX when Prince Vilhelm
was offered the Greek throne by the Great Powers in 1863.

King Christian was aware that taking on the Greek throne was
risky business, and in case Vilhelm/George I was ousted he would be
rendered stateless. Thus the -of Denmark style was included as a
legal technicality, which would enable the Danish monarch to provide
King George and his family with Danish passports. With prophetic
foresight I might add, as this provision has been activated several times
over the years!

As far as I know ex-king Constantine and his family are still holding
Danish diplomatic passports. Note the italics! It means that they
have a legally valid piece of paper providing them with a nominal
nationality. However they have no citizen rights as such, nor are they
in the line of succession to the Danish throne, nor are they members
of the Danish royal House. They are members of the extended RF only.

Viv
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  #150  
Old 08-13-2008, 08:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Odette View Post
It is true than no one can run unless they are Greek citizens and the royal family carry Danish passports.
Yes, that would be very interesting to know?
This might be the answer to why the Greek Royal family has a special status in Denmark.
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  #151  
Old 08-13-2008, 08:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lilla View Post
Yes, that would be very interesting to know?
This might be the answer to why the Greek Royal family has a special status in Denmark.
How so? You mean besides being relatives of the reigning royal family or there is something more to it??
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  #152  
Old 08-13-2008, 08:38 PM
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Yes the children of Queen Anne Marie and King Constantine are all princes or princesses of Denmark and they have danish passports.

And please don't ask me for sources on the latter statement. It is childhood knowledege. I have grown up with that - just like the knowledge that in Denmark Queen Anne Marie and King Konstantine are titled King and Queen not with the "ex" in front.
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  #153  
Old 08-14-2008, 09:08 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lilla View Post
Yes the children of Queen Anne Marie and King Constantine are all princes or princesses of Denmark and they have danish passports.

And please don't ask me for sources on the latter statement. It is childhood knowledege. I have grown up with that - just like the knowledge that in Denmark Queen Anne Marie and King Konstantine are titled King and Queen not with the "ex" in front.
Greek royals being princes/cesses of Greece and Denmark has nothing to do with Anne-Marie. When she married Constantine she renounced her place in line to the Danish throne, for herself and her future children. The 'Greece and Denmark' comes from Prince Vilhelm of Denmark who became King George I of Greece. The Greek throne being an unstable one he insisted that his descendents keep the 'princes of Denmark' in their title. And all have since, in 1953 with the changes to the succession in Denmark it became limited to the descendents of King Christian X so the Greek line no longer has succession rights. In Danish one is 'af Denmark' the other is 'til Denmark'. Can't remember which is the with succession rights.

The Greek royals now have Danish passports because the Greek government in the early 1990's took away their Greek ones, saying they need to have a surname. That's when Queen Margrethe gave them all Danish diplomatic passports.
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  #154  
Old 08-14-2008, 09:15 AM
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Thanks Charlotte1 for the explanation
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  #155  
Old 08-19-2008, 04:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Charlotte1 View Post
In Danish one is 'af Denmark' the other is 'til Denmark'. Can't remember which is the with succession rights.
Those with succession rights are styled "til Danmark"!

Viv
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  #156  
Old 08-29-2008, 07:22 PM
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I have read that the tradition monarchist says:

the descendants in first degree are the official princes
But the grandsons of King can not be appointed official prince while his father is not named King, then automatically have the title of Principes

They can not be appointed principes while his father does not occupy the position of the grandfather.

For example:
The children of prince Pavlo are not princes, they will be princes when el Prince pavlo will occupy the position of the grandfather.

you can say that they are princes, but they are not officials princes, they will be prince official when his father will occupy possition of King Constantine
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  #157  
Old 10-08-2008, 04:32 PM
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Prince michael and family

The king Constantine has a passport danish, in passport his surname is "Greece", but it is not valid in Greece.In Greece he has a "status" of foreigner, but he is a foreigner european.
The Venicilenos law removed the passport to Constantine and his family and it established several conditions, the one condition is that Constantine and his family will change their surname "Greece"
I ask:
What is passport the prince Michael?
what is his surname? Is it Greece?
He has always been able to travel freely to Greece and has a house in Patmos, this means that he has another surname other than Greece.
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  #158  
Old 10-13-2008, 05:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BELTRANEJA View Post
The king Constantine has a passport danish, in passport his surname is "Greece", but it is not valid in Greece.
The last thing I saw was that the family is using the name "de Grecia",
which is sort of a Latinized form of "of Greece".
Beltraneja, is that the surname the Greek authorities won't accept?

Also, the family have Danish diplomatic passports! That is, they
have a nominal citizenship of Denmark but they do not have full
citizen rights.

I wonder why they haven't applied for full citizenship of i.e.
the UK, Denmark or Spain. Are they still hoping against hope?
IMO a Greek citizenship is too delicate a matter for the time
being!
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  #159  
Old 10-17-2008, 05:35 PM
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Their case is unique in Europe.
Denmark is a state that is part of the organization "European Union".
The objective of the European Union is to create a Europe where citizens are moving freely through their territory and they all have the same currency, the euro (Although Denmark has not accepted the euro in other countries, France, Spain, Italy, Greece it is the currency).Any European citizen can travel through EU territory without a passport and the members states can not prohibit their entry into country.
In addition, when a citizen with a European passport travel to a non-European state, if the citizen has problems in that state, he may ask to help to the embassy of his country and if his country has no embassy, he may ask to help to the embassy of a country of the EU.
For example:
IF a person with European passport LOSEs his PASSPORT into of no-european state.
if the person stolen his MONEY AND CAN NOT GO BACK TO his COUNTRY
IF THIS COUNTRY(non-european)begin a WAR AND the person can not leave the this country,he may ask to help to a embassy of a member state and he CAN BE evacuate with the citizens of that country.
Constantine and Anne Marie have diplomatic protection of Denmark and Denmark is member of EU....
But I wonder:
If CONSTANTINE travel to a country and that country LOG IN WAR AND CLOSES THE AIR TRAFFIC AND he HAVE TO ASK TO HELP to AN EMBASSY TO LEAVE of this COUNTRY, AND only Greece is europen country with embassy in this country. Could Constantine ask to help to Greece?
It is not probable, but it demonstrates that the kings are a unique case in europe
Quote:
Originally Posted by Viv View Post
I wonder why they haven't applied for full citizenship of i.e.
the UK, Denmark or Spain. Are they still hoping against hope?
IMO a Greek citizenship is too delicate a matter for the time
being!
I think that the kings haven´t lost hope of recovering their citizenship of Greece.
Only, if the "law Venicilenos" of 1994 would be to repealed, they could recover
AUTOMATICALLY their citizenship of Greece but if they are danish citizenship it would be very complicated to recover.
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  #160  
Old 02-07-2009, 11:19 PM
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according to the the conference of vienna i beilieve it was in 1814 from that point on if a reigning house were to loose its throne they would still be royal
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