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  #121  
Old 12-05-2007, 04:47 PM
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Originally Posted by Philippe Egalite' View Post
Well, now you do. And if you are seriously interested to know the perspective of History (Greek historic precedent since 1864 and the Hellenic Constitution of 1953 that was in effect until 1973 when the Monarchy was abolished) and the Law (American, British or European, because Mrs Miller de Grecia is most likely a citizen of one of these countries or Union of Countries), you are most welcome to start a thread on the issue, and I shall most respectfully give you full and substantiated (to the iota) account on the matter.

Well, when she got married to CP Pavlos back in 1995, King Constantine II
published that his daughter in law was to be known as I said before (HRH CPss Pavlos of Greece. I think, she would be "CPss Marie Chantal of Greece" if there was still a monarchy in Greece....?)). Marie Chantal was also called that way in the official bulletins from the Royal House after she gave birth to her children. So King Constantines will still counts more than your own personal opinion about titles or the lack of it and the Crown Princess is a princess by marriage if you like it or not.
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  #122  
Old 12-05-2007, 06:28 PM
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I'm sorry but crown princess to what? There is no longer a monarchy in Greece which means many of these "royal" titles are pure courtesy titles. Just like in France and Russia and other places where the monarchy has been abolished. Constantine, his wife and their older children are "allowed" to use their titles as they had them before they were overthrown. But "technically" the younger children and any children of the three sons are not really "princes or princesses" as they were born when there was no longer a monarchy. Again, these titles are mere courtesies and everyone, in or outside of royal cirlces, knows this.
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  #123  
Old 12-05-2007, 06:53 PM
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Originally Posted by wartenberg7 View Post
I think, she would be "CPss Marie Chantal of Greece" if there was still a monarchy in Greece....?)). So King Constantines will still counts more than your own personal opinion about titles or the lack of it and the Crown Princess is a princess by marriage if you like it or not.
What I or anyone thinks or likes is irrelevant on this type of issues.
Obviously, you refuse my offer to give you an objective and elaborate account in a separate thread, which is self-explanatory.

Heads of defunct royal houses tend to take liberties since there is no associated cost. This does not make their actions right [after all, the era of the Holy Roman Empire is gone irreversibly]. Best example is that of Vittorio Emmanuelle of Savoia, who married unequally (to say the least), beat his cousin Amedeo Duke of Aosta during a royal wedding celebration in Spain (causing Juan Carlos the embarrassment of his life), and was granting royal orders to obscure people in exchange of grace-and-favor, to the extent that his eldest sister, princess Maria Gabriella, was forced to "drop" him and recognize Amedeo of Aosta as the new Head of the House of Savoia-Aosta.

By the way, the only Royal House of a defunct monarchy where use of the title Crown Prince is legitimate is that of Serbia (formerly Yugoslavia). The Serbian Parliament and Government decreed that the Karadjordje family was a nation-building dynasty. Because of that, all palaces were returned to the family, a certain role (albeit not constitutionally backed) exists for the RF in Serbian affairs, the crown appears on the national flag, CP Alexander often represents Serbia abroad etc. Thus, in abidance by the will of the Serbian people, diplomatic protocol dictates that he be recognized, addressed, and referred to, as HRH Crown Prince Alexander of Serbia. Such recognition may soon extend to the Petrovic-Njegos royal family of Montenegro, because the Petrovic were the Bishops of Montenegro for centuries and also a nation-building dynasty.
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  #124  
Old 12-18-2007, 05:12 AM
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I read somewhere that the whole family has Danish diplomatic passports. What names are stated there? And what would their legal names have been if they had travelled with greek passports?
Convenient having a reigning Queen as your sister-in-law..
I know that the former German titles are used as legal surnames now, including both the old title and the land. ie Georg Friedrich Prinz von Preussen or Elisabeth Herzogin in Bayern.
Would Greek citizens (those opposed to the monarchy) accept the form of "de Grecia" for the ex-king? Title, or no title, the name itself still means "of Greece"
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  #125  
Old 01-02-2008, 04:18 AM
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You know it always makes me wonder and baffles me to this very day. The Russians, Romanians, Spaniards, Danes, Norwegians, Swedes, and even the great British people hardly kick up a fuss regarding the foreign origins of their royal (or former as in the case of Russia & Romania) families. The Greeks seem to be so over-sensitive, when it comes to issues against their former royal family, no matter how petty the issues may be. Give them a break man.... chill (as the Americans say).
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  #126  
Old 01-02-2008, 06:51 AM
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Originally Posted by Hanna Regina View Post
I read somewhere that the whole family has Danish diplomatic passports. What names are stated there? And what would their legal names have been if they had travelled with greek passports?
Convenient having a reigning Queen as your sister-in-law..
I know that the former German titles are used as legal surnames now, including both the old title and the land. ie Georg Friedrich Prinz von Preussen or Elisabeth Herzogin in Bayern.
Would Greek citizens (those opposed to the monarchy) accept the form of "de Grecia" for the ex-king? Title, or no title, the name itself still means "of Greece"
The GRF travel to Greece and abroad with their Danish or Spanish family passports, as European citizens, and this gave them the opportunity to be able to come back to Greece and visit more often; in fact it's in their Spanish ones were they're referred to as "de Grecia" (of Greece)
King Constantine and Queen Anne Marie did in fact own Greek passports that named them "Ex King and Queen of Greece" issued by the conservative Mistotakis government of 1990-1993; these however expired and none of the following three "socialist" PASOK governments were eager to renew them.
Fortunately they don't need them anymore!
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  #127  
Old 01-05-2008, 05:09 PM
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It is possible for a country to recognise a forigner by what ever title they feel is apropriate. For example in Monaco - the former Serene Highness Princess Caroline is officialy known, styled and addressed as Her Royal Highness Princess Ernst of Hanover because the Monasque government (obviously by Prince Rainier) chose to formally recognise her husband by his germanic noble title even though his own country does not formally recognise it. The Greek Royals are recognised with the dignity of King and Queen in Denmark by the grace and insistance of the danish Queen. In the UK, the government would refer out of diplomatic interest to them as Ex-King, however the British Royal family extend to them the full dignity of King. etc etc.
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  #128  
Old 01-06-2008, 08:12 AM
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Wouldn't Princess Caroline be adressed as HRH The Princess of Hanover? Instead of HRH Princess Ernst of Hanover?
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  #129  
Old 01-07-2008, 03:33 PM
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Yeah sorry... your right Robijn
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  #130  
Old 01-08-2008, 10:09 AM
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Originally Posted by Splodger View Post
It is possible for a country to recognise a forigner by what ever title they feel is apropriate. For example in Monaco - the former Serene Highness Princess Caroline is officialy known, styled and addressed as Her Royal Highness Princess Ernst of Hanover because the Monasque government (obviously by Prince Rainier) chose to formally recognise her husband by his germanic noble title even though his own country does not formally recognise it. The Greek Royals are recognised with the dignity of King and Queen in Denmark by the grace and insistance of the danish Queen. In the UK, the government would refer out of diplomatic interest to them as Ex-King, however the British Royal family extend to them the full dignity of King. etc etc.
This is true, in general. In Europe, of course, all members of the European Union have made adjustments to accommodate the sensitivities and sensibilities of fellow states.

Insofar as the European Union is concerned, King Constantine and Queen Anne-Marie, are legally Mr and Mrs de Grecia, based on the surname adopted by them both out of their own free will, and as recorded on their passports as Danish citizens. What the Gotha world or various Royal Houses do or do not for their internal consumption is their own prerogative.

However, in a historical sense or in the context of social courtesy, King Constantine and Queen Anne-Marie, are kings for life, thus deserving to be referred to as such but non-territorially, or as King Constantine, former King of the Hellenes and Queen Anne-Marie, former Queen of the Hellenes.
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  #131  
Old 01-19-2008, 10:22 PM
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Originally Posted by Splodger View Post
It is possible for a country to recognise a forigner by what ever title they feel is apropriate. For example in Monaco - the former Serene Highness Princess Caroline is officialy known, styled and addressed as Her Royal Highness Princess Ernst of Hanover because the Monasque government (obviously by Prince Rainier) chose to formally recognise her husband by his germanic noble title even though his own country does not formally recognise it.
Caroline is not addressed this way in Monaco. She is addressed as Her Royal Highness or "The Hereditary Princess" by the Court. In other courts, she is addressed as "The Princess of Hanover", as her married style and rank take precedence over her own.
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  #132  
Old 01-21-2008, 11:35 PM
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I can't remember where I have read this (possibly this forum, or another), but at some point the GRF was asked to include their surname on their passports, which, according to some sources (I wish I could remember where I read this) is Glucksberg. Does anyone know if this is true, and if it is, where does the name Glucksberg come from? This is hardly a Greek surname. Does is come from Denmark?
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  #133  
Old 01-22-2008, 08:18 AM
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I hope these articles help SGL:
This Europe: Greek government tells its former king: get a surname if you want your money - Independent Online Edition > Europe
Greece History

It looks like Glucksberg is the name of the dynasty, and as a result, their surname.
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  #134  
Old 01-22-2008, 11:25 PM
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Thank you! I knew that I had previously read that Glucksberg was the surname, but I wasn't entirely sure. The first link didn't work for me, but I was able to open the second link, and you have answered my question. Thank you!
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  #135  
Old 01-23-2008, 09:51 PM
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Originally Posted by sgl View Post
I can't remember where I have read this (possibly this forum, or another), but at some point the GRF was asked to include their surname on their passports, which, according to some sources (I wish I could remember where I read this) is Glucksberg. Does anyone know if this is true, and if it is, where does the name Glucksberg come from? This is hardly a Greek surname. Does is come from Denmark?
I quote from Wikipedia,
"Glücksburg (Danish: Lyksborg) is a small town in the district Schleswig-Flensburg, in Schleswig-Holstein, Germany. It is situated on the south side of the Flensburg Fjord, an inlet of the Baltic Sea, approx. 10 km northeast of Flensburg. The town was originally the home of the family Schleswig-Holstein-Sonderburg-Glücksburg (or simply Glücksburg), since 1863 the royal family of Denmark and since 1905 of Norway. A branch of the family was the former royal family of Greece."

According to Wikipedia the beginnings of the Schleswig-Holstein-Sonderburg-Glücksburg -Beck family were pretty humble, and I quote
"Neither the Dukes of Beck nor of Glücksburg were sovereign rulers - they held their lands in fief to the sovereign Dukes of Schleswig and Holstein - the Kings of Denmark and (before 1773) the Dukes of Holstein-Gottorp."

Perhaps the facts that Glucksburg
1) is no more a part of Denmark, and
2) reminds of the family's humble beginnings [despite a later robust and illustrious "presence" in the Royal World]
may explain why certain royal personages are so resentful of this being their House's name.

At any rate, as of several years now, former King Constantine and his Consort have become Danish citizens and adopted de Grecia as their legal surname. Thus, insofar as the European and International Laws are concerned, they are known as Monsieur Constantine de Grecia and Madame Anne-Marie de Grecia.
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  #136  
Old 03-21-2008, 01:22 PM
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So, I've never understood exactly why Greek princes and princesses are entitled to the title of Prince(ss) of Denmark. Call me silly, and I am sure I read it somewhere once, but I really can't remember. Has it something to do with a previous King coming from Denmark? And would that style not eventually die out?
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  #137  
Old 03-22-2008, 03:42 AM
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Your right Empress, King George I was born Prince Wilhelm of Denmark and was created King of Greece by the great powers in the late 1800's and he was able to keep the title of Prince of Denmark and as a result all of his descendants through the male lines have the title Prince/ss of Denmark as well of that of Greece
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  #138  
Old 03-29-2008, 10:58 PM
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So, I've never understood exactly why Greek princes and princesses are entitled to the title of Prince(ss) of Denmark. Call me silly, and I am sure I read it somewhere once, but I really can't remember. Has it something to do with a previous King coming from Denmark? And would that style not eventually die out?
To answer the second question. The style has already died out following the 1953 Succession Act enacted during the reign of King Frederick IX, queen Anne-Marie's father. According to this Act, only descendants of Christian X and Queen Alexandrine can ascend to the Throne. Royals outside this line who had been born earlier as princes of Denmark, like King Constantine, prince Michael of Greece and prince Peter of Greece lost completely any rights to the Throne but were allowed to retain the courtesy (ie constitutionally meaningless) title of prince, and be known as princes af Danmark. In essence, these personages are no more princes of Denmark in a legal capacity, in their own rights. Given the aforementioned as well as the fact that queen Anne-Marie also lost her rights to the Danish Throne upon marrying a reigning foreign dynast, the children of king Constantine and queen Anne-Marie were not born, and are not, princes/princesses of Denmark.
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  #139  
Old 03-30-2008, 08:35 AM
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It seems as though both the Danish Crown and the Danish government accept the children of King Constantine and Queen Anne-Marie as the members of the Danish royal house. However, none including Queen Anne-Marie who is a younger sister of the Queen of Denmark are qualified to be listed in the line of succession to the throne of Denmark. This is because the members of the Greek royal family are not Lutheran but Greek Orthodox. So, I hear from people who know the Greek royals.
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Old 03-30-2008, 11:06 PM
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Originally Posted by serenissima View Post
It seems as though both the Danish Crown and the Danish government accept the children of King Constantine and Queen Anne-Marie as the members of the Danish royal house. However, none including Queen Anne-Marie who is a younger sister of the Queen of Denmark are qualified to be listed in the line of succession to the throne of Denmark. This is because the members of the Greek royal family are not Lutheran but Greek Orthodox. So, I hear from people who know the Greek royals.
As you may see for yourself, by visiting the official site of the Royal House of Denmark, neither queen Anne-Marie nor king Constantine are included as members of the Royal House (let alone their children). The site quotes, however, that queen Anne-Marie is a member of the extended Royal Family.
The Danish Government is not concerned with personages that have no rights to the Throne, in other words, king Constantine is irrelevant to Danish Law. However, as a descendent of king Christian IX and because of this fact alone (that was discussed in the Danish Parliament a few years back) king Constantine was allowed to apply for Danish citizenship and obtain a passport as Constantine de Grecia. It is true that to become king/queen of the Denmark a prince/princess must be of the Lutheran denomination but the Constitution does not prohibit someone from becoming king/queen once qualified and after adopting Lutheranism. Thus, up until 1953, when the Succession Act was changed, king Constantine, for instance, could theoretically become king of Denmark by switching from Orthodoxy to Lutheranism. So, the denomination per se is not an issue.
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