Titles, Surname and Protocols for the Royal Family


If you have answers, please help by responding to the unanswered posts.
Well, now you do. And if you are seriously interested to know the perspective of History (Greek historic precedent since 1864 and the Hellenic Constitution of 1953 that was in effect until 1973 when the Monarchy was abolished) and the Law (American, British or European, because Mrs Miller de Grecia is most likely a citizen of one of these countries or Union of Countries), you are most welcome to start a thread on the issue, and I shall most respectfully give you full and substantiated (to the iota) account on the matter.


Well, when she got married to CP Pavlos back in 1995, King Constantine II
published that his daughter in law was to be known as I said before (HRH CPss Pavlos of Greece. I think, she would be "CPss Marie Chantal of Greece" if there was still a monarchy in Greece....?)). Marie Chantal was also called that way in the official bulletins from the Royal House after she gave birth to her children. So King Constantines will still counts more than your own personal opinion about titles or the lack of it and the Crown Princess is a princess by marriage if you like it or not.
 
I'm sorry but crown princess to what? There is no longer a monarchy in Greece which means many of these "royal" titles are pure courtesy titles. Just like in France and Russia and other places where the monarchy has been abolished. Constantine, his wife and their older children are "allowed" to use their titles as they had them before they were overthrown. But "technically" the younger children and any children of the three sons are not really "princes or princesses" as they were born when there was no longer a monarchy. Again, these titles are mere courtesies and everyone, in or outside of royal cirlces, knows this.
 
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I think, she would be "CPss Marie Chantal of Greece" if there was still a monarchy in Greece....?)). So King Constantines will still counts more than your own personal opinion about titles or the lack of it and the Crown Princess is a princess by marriage if you like it or not.

What I or anyone thinks or likes is irrelevant on this type of issues.
Obviously, you refuse my offer to give you an objective and elaborate account in a separate thread, which is self-explanatory.

Heads of defunct royal houses tend to take liberties since there is no associated cost. This does not make their actions right [after all, the era of the Holy Roman Empire is gone irreversibly]. Best example is that of Vittorio Emmanuelle of Savoia, who married unequally (to say the least), beat his cousin Amedeo Duke of Aosta during a royal wedding celebration in Spain (causing Juan Carlos the embarrassment of his life), and was granting royal orders to obscure people in exchange of grace-and-favor, to the extent that his eldest sister, princess Maria Gabriella, was forced to "drop" him and recognize Amedeo of Aosta as the new Head of the House of Savoia-Aosta.

By the way, the only Royal House of a defunct monarchy where use of the title Crown Prince is legitimate is that of Serbia (formerly Yugoslavia). The Serbian Parliament and Government decreed that the Karadjordje family was a nation-building dynasty. Because of that, all palaces were returned to the family, a certain role (albeit not constitutionally backed) exists for the RF in Serbian affairs, the crown appears on the national flag, CP Alexander often represents Serbia abroad etc. Thus, in abidance by the will of the Serbian people, diplomatic protocol dictates that he be recognized, addressed, and referred to, as HRH Crown Prince Alexander of Serbia. Such recognition may soon extend to the Petrovic-Njegos royal family of Montenegro, because the Petrovic were the Bishops of Montenegro for centuries and also a nation-building dynasty.
 
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I read somewhere that the whole family has Danish diplomatic passports. What names are stated there? And what would their legal names have been if they had travelled with greek passports?
Convenient having a reigning Queen as your sister-in-law..
I know that the former German titles are used as legal surnames now, including both the old title and the land. ie Georg Friedrich Prinz von Preussen or Elisabeth Herzogin in Bayern.
Would Greek citizens (those opposed to the monarchy) accept the form of "de Grecia" for the ex-king? Title, or no title, the name itself still means "of Greece"
 
You know it always makes me wonder and baffles me to this very day. The Russians, Romanians, Spaniards, Danes, Norwegians, Swedes, and even the great British people hardly kick up a fuss regarding the foreign origins of their royal (or former as in the case of Russia & Romania) families. The Greeks seem to be so over-sensitive, when it comes to issues against their former royal family, no matter how petty the issues may be. Give them a break man.... chill (as the Americans say).
 
I read somewhere that the whole family has Danish diplomatic passports. What names are stated there? And what would their legal names have been if they had travelled with greek passports?
Convenient having a reigning Queen as your sister-in-law..
I know that the former German titles are used as legal surnames now, including both the old title and the land. ie Georg Friedrich Prinz von Preussen or Elisabeth Herzogin in Bayern.
Would Greek citizens (those opposed to the monarchy) accept the form of "de Grecia" for the ex-king? Title, or no title, the name itself still means "of Greece"

The GRF travel to Greece and abroad with their Danish or Spanish family passports, as European citizens, and this gave them the opportunity to be able to come back to Greece and visit more often; in fact it's in their Spanish ones were they're referred to as "de Grecia" (of Greece)
King Constantine and Queen Anne Marie did in fact own Greek passports that named them "Ex King and Queen of Greece" issued by the conservative Mistotakis government of 1990-1993; these however expired and none of the following three "socialist" PASOK governments were eager to renew them.
Fortunately they don't need them anymore!:)
 
It is possible for a country to recognise a forigner by what ever title they feel is apropriate. For example in Monaco - the former Serene Highness Princess Caroline is officialy known, styled and addressed as Her Royal Highness Princess Ernst of Hanover because the Monasque government (obviously by Prince Rainier) chose to formally recognise her husband by his germanic noble title even though his own country does not formally recognise it. The Greek Royals are recognised with the dignity of King and Queen in Denmark by the grace and insistance of the danish Queen. In the UK, the government would refer out of diplomatic interest to them as Ex-King, however the British Royal family extend to them the full dignity of King. etc etc.
 
Wouldn't Princess Caroline be adressed as HRH The Princess of Hanover? Instead of HRH Princess Ernst of Hanover?
 
It is possible for a country to recognise a forigner by what ever title they feel is apropriate. For example in Monaco - the former Serene Highness Princess Caroline is officialy known, styled and addressed as Her Royal Highness Princess Ernst of Hanover because the Monasque government (obviously by Prince Rainier) chose to formally recognise her husband by his germanic noble title even though his own country does not formally recognise it. The Greek Royals are recognised with the dignity of King and Queen in Denmark by the grace and insistance of the danish Queen. In the UK, the government would refer out of diplomatic interest to them as Ex-King, however the British Royal family extend to them the full dignity of King. etc etc.

This is true, in general. In Europe, of course, all members of the European Union have made adjustments to accommodate the sensitivities and sensibilities of fellow states.

Insofar as the European Union is concerned, King Constantine and Queen Anne-Marie, are legally Mr and Mrs de Grecia, based on the surname adopted by them both out of their own free will, and as recorded on their passports as Danish citizens. What the Gotha world or various Royal Houses do or do not for their internal consumption is their own prerogative.

However, in a historical sense or in the context of social courtesy, King Constantine and Queen Anne-Marie, are kings for life, thus deserving to be referred to as such but non-territorially, or as King Constantine, former King of the Hellenes and Queen Anne-Marie, former Queen of the Hellenes.
 
It is possible for a country to recognise a forigner by what ever title they feel is apropriate. For example in Monaco - the former Serene Highness Princess Caroline is officialy known, styled and addressed as Her Royal Highness Princess Ernst of Hanover because the Monasque government (obviously by Prince Rainier) chose to formally recognise her husband by his germanic noble title even though his own country does not formally recognise it.

Caroline is not addressed this way in Monaco. She is addressed as Her Royal Highness or "The Hereditary Princess" by the Court. In other courts, she is addressed as "The Princess of Hanover", as her married style and rank take precedence over her own.
 
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I can't remember where I have read this (possibly this forum, or another), but at some point the GRF was asked to include their surname on their passports, which, according to some sources (I wish I could remember where I read this) is Glucksberg. Does anyone know if this is true, and if it is, where does the name Glucksberg come from? This is hardly a Greek surname. Does is come from Denmark?
 
Thank you! I knew that I had previously read that Glucksberg was the surname, but I wasn't entirely sure. The first link didn't work for me, but I was able to open the second link, and you have answered my question. Thank you!:flowers:
 
I can't remember where I have read this (possibly this forum, or another), but at some point the GRF was asked to include their surname on their passports, which, according to some sources (I wish I could remember where I read this) is Glucksberg. Does anyone know if this is true, and if it is, where does the name Glucksberg come from? This is hardly a Greek surname. Does is come from Denmark?

I quote from Wikipedia,
"Glücksburg (Danish: Lyksborg) is a small town in the district Schleswig-Flensburg, in Schleswig-Holstein, Germany. It is situated on the south side of the Flensburg Fjord, an inlet of the Baltic Sea, approx. 10 km northeast of Flensburg. The town was originally the home of the family Schleswig-Holstein-Sonderburg-Glücksburg (or simply Glücksburg), since 1863 the royal family of Denmark and since 1905 of Norway. A branch of the family was the former royal family of Greece."

According to Wikipedia the beginnings of the Schleswig-Holstein-Sonderburg-Glücksburg -Beck family were pretty humble, and I quote
"Neither the Dukes of Beck nor of Glücksburg were sovereign rulers - they held their lands in fief to the sovereign Dukes of Schleswig and Holstein - the Kings of Denmark and (before 1773) the Dukes of Holstein-Gottorp."

Perhaps the facts that Glucksburg
1) is no more a part of Denmark, and
2) reminds of the family's humble beginnings [despite a later robust and illustrious "presence" in the Royal World]
may explain why certain royal personages are so resentful of this being their House's name.

At any rate, as of several years now, former King Constantine and his Consort have become Danish citizens and adopted de Grecia as their legal surname. Thus, insofar as the European and International Laws are concerned, they are known as Monsieur Constantine de Grecia and Madame Anne-Marie de Grecia.
 
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So, I've never understood exactly why Greek princes and princesses are entitled to the title of Prince(ss) of Denmark. Call me silly, and I am sure I read it somewhere once, but I really can't remember. Has it something to do with a previous King coming from Denmark? And would that style not eventually die out?
 
Your right Empress, King George I was born Prince Wilhelm of Denmark and was created King of Greece by the great powers in the late 1800's and he was able to keep the title of Prince of Denmark and as a result all of his descendants through the male lines have the title Prince/ss of Denmark as well of that of Greece
 
So, I've never understood exactly why Greek princes and princesses are entitled to the title of Prince(ss) of Denmark. Call me silly, and I am sure I read it somewhere once, but I really can't remember. Has it something to do with a previous King coming from Denmark? And would that style not eventually die out?

To answer the second question. The style has already died out following the 1953 Succession Act enacted during the reign of King Frederick IX, queen Anne-Marie's father. According to this Act, only descendants of Christian X and Queen Alexandrine can ascend to the Throne. Royals outside this line who had been born earlier as princes of Denmark, like King Constantine, prince Michael of Greece and prince Peter of Greece lost completely any rights to the Throne but were allowed to retain the courtesy (ie constitutionally meaningless) title of prince, and be known as princes af Danmark. In essence, these personages are no more princes of Denmark in a legal capacity, in their own rights. Given the aforementioned as well as the fact that queen Anne-Marie also lost her rights to the Danish Throne upon marrying a reigning foreign dynast, the children of king Constantine and queen Anne-Marie were not born, and are not, princes/princesses of Denmark.
 
It seems as though both the Danish Crown and the Danish government accept the children of King Constantine and Queen Anne-Marie as the members of the Danish royal house. However, none including Queen Anne-Marie who is a younger sister of the Queen of Denmark are qualified to be listed in the line of succession to the throne of Denmark. This is because the members of the Greek royal family are not Lutheran but Greek Orthodox. So, I hear from people who know the Greek royals.
 
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It seems as though both the Danish Crown and the Danish government accept the children of King Constantine and Queen Anne-Marie as the members of the Danish royal house. However, none including Queen Anne-Marie who is a younger sister of the Queen of Denmark are qualified to be listed in the line of succession to the throne of Denmark. This is because the members of the Greek royal family are not Lutheran but Greek Orthodox. So, I hear from people who know the Greek royals.

As you may see for yourself, by visiting the official site of the Royal House of Denmark, neither queen Anne-Marie nor king Constantine are included as members of the Royal House (let alone their children). The site quotes, however, that queen Anne-Marie is a member of the extended Royal Family.
The Danish Government is not concerned with personages that have no rights to the Throne, in other words, king Constantine is irrelevant to Danish Law. However, as a descendent of king Christian IX and because of this fact alone (that was discussed in the Danish Parliament a few years back) king Constantine was allowed to apply for Danish citizenship and obtain a passport as Constantine de Grecia. It is true that to become king/queen of the Denmark a prince/princess must be of the Lutheran denomination but the Constitution does not prohibit someone from becoming king/queen once qualified and after adopting Lutheranism. Thus, up until 1953, when the Succession Act was changed, king Constantine, for instance, could theoretically become king of Denmark by switching from Orthodoxy to Lutheranism. So, the denomination per se is not an issue.
 
Apparently, all the children of King Constantine & Queen Anne-Marie use the titles of princes/princesses of Greece and Denmark according to people who know them.
 
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From Wikipedia: Before 1953, various descendants of King Christian IX had succession rights in Denmark. The new Act of Succession terminated those rights but left the individuals involved in possession of their titles. This created a class of people with royal titles but no rights to the throne. As a distinction, those entitled to inherit the throne are called "Prins til Danmark" (Prince to Denmark, although this distinction is not made in English) while those without succession rights are referred to as "Prins af Danmark" (Prince of Denmark).



So the Greeks, if one were to read about them in a Danish language text, would be, for example, Kronprins Pavlos af Grækenland, Prins af Danmark, while Christian is Prins Christian til Danmark
 
Apparently, all the children of King Constantine & Queen Anne-Marie use the titles of princes/princesses of Greece and Denmark according to people who know them.

What various personages want or would want to be known as and what legitimacy and legality determine are two distinct issues.
 
From Wikipedia: Before 1953, various descendants of King Christian IX had succession rights in Denmark. The new Act of Succession terminated those rights but left the individuals involved in possession of their titles. This created a class of people with royal titles but no rights to the throne. As a distinction, those entitled to inherit the throne are called "Prins til Danmark" (Prince to Denmark, although this distinction is not made in English) while those without succession rights are referred to as "Prins af Danmark" (Prince of Denmark).

I took the liberty to bold and italicize what is exactly the crux of the issue, i.e. personages who were born prior to 1953 and thus, when the Act of Succession was passed (in 1953), were in possession of title of Prins/esse til Danmark. As of 1953, such personages, i.e. the descendants of King Christian IX but who were not issue of King Christian X and Queen Alexandrine, as the then Diadoch Constantine of Greece, Princesses Sofia and Yriny of Greece and Princes Peter and Michael of Greece, ceased to be constitutional Princes/ses of Denmark (ie, til=to) and became automatically courtesy* Princes/ses of Denmark (ie, af=of).

To make the point crystal-clear, the til and af Danmark, as used in Denmark in conjunction with the prince/ss title, correspond to what in the English language are periphrastically referred to as prince/ss in his own right (a constitutional prince/ss - a dynast) and prince/ss by marriage/association (courtesy prince/ss - a non-dynast), respectively.

By definition, however, a holder of a courtesy title has no own dynastic right to transfer her/his title to one's issue. Said differently, the children of King Constantine were not born princes/ses til Danmark since, at their birth, both their father had ceased to be a Danish dynast and the 1953 Succession Act precluded that altogether. Lastly, I am not aware of princes/ses af Danmark born to princes/ses who were mere princes/ses af Danmark.

Therefore, unless HM The Queen of Denmark decides, through letters patent or some other Danish royal prerogative provided for by the Danish Constitution, to confer officially courtesy titles to them, the children of King Constantine are not princes/ses either til or af Danmark. Should there be a way for HM The Queen to do so, it would complicate matters for, in such case, the children of Princess Benedikte - who after all remains a princess til Danmark, could and would also have similar expectations, etc etc.

* Here the term courtesy prince is used (see unabridged Merriam-Webster) to imply presence of official right but absence of legal meaning/significance. For example, Prince Henrik af Danmark and Princess Mary af Danmark are not dynasts - they may not issue princes/ses in their own right.
By the way, a courtesy title is inferior to ad personam titles. For example, the Infanta Elena of Spain is the ad personam Duchess of Lugo. Her title is for her only and cannot be inherited, but (she) shall remain so for life, whether she divorces or remarries. On the other hand, Princess Alexandra of Denmark lost her courtesy title of princess the very moment she remarried. So a courtesy title, apart from legally meaningless may also be conditional.
 
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I have an off topic question about the Greek children's births but wasn't sure where else to put it.

I had been under the impression that in order to ascend to a throne, a royal had to be born in the country it would rule. For example, one of the Dutch princesses born during the second world war was born in Canada but the Canadian government had the hospital room temporarily made Dutch soil so that, if the baby was a boy, he would still be able to claim the throne. So my question is, how can the children of Pavlos be heirs if none of them were born in Greece? I know this is a bit of a moot point considering they are in exile and will probably never rule but I am still curious.
 
I don't know what the former Greek constitution had to say on the matter, but since Greece is a republic the present constitution wouldn't cover royal succession. Not every monarchy insists its future monarch is born on home soil. For the heirs of former monarchies the term "de jure King [etc]" covers their position without them claiming to be "the King". In any case, Constantin remains the heir, after his father, to the Headship of the Royal House of Greece which is a slightly different issue.
 
I have an off topic question about the Greek children's births but wasn't sure where else to put it.

I had been under the impression that in order to ascend to a throne, a royal had to be born in the country it would rule. For example, one of the Dutch princesses born during the second world war was born in Canada but the Canadian government had the hospital room temporarily made Dutch soil so that, if the baby was a boy, he would still be able to claim the throne. So my question is, how can the children of Pavlos be heirs if none of them were born in Greece? I know this is a bit of a moot point considering they are in exile and will probably never rule but I am still curious.

I think it depends on the succession laws of the different countries in question.
 
This is an easy question to answer based on precedent.
Indeed, the old Greek Constitutions did not carry any limitations in this respect.
Moreover, princess Yriny who, from March 1964 until Summer of 1965 (date of birth of princess Alexia) was constitutionally the Diadoch (ie Heir to the Throne of Greece) had been born in South Africa where the Royal Family of Greece was residing in exile during the German Occupation.
At any rate, I am not sure whether the Constitution of any European monarchy requires(d) specifically that the heir be born on national soil. In certain situations, as in the case of Prince Alexander of Yugoslavia, special arrangements were made so that the heir be born on transiently national soil - but this was done for sentimental rather than legal/constitutional reasons.
King George VI declared temporarily the Claridge's Hotel as Yugoslav soil in order for the birth of King Peter and Queen Alexandra's first (and only) child to occur on Yugoslav soil.
 
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So, I've never understood exactly why Greek princes and princesses are entitled to the title of Prince(ss) of Denmark. Call me silly, and I am sure I read it somewhere once, but I really can't remember. Has it something to do with a previous King coming from Denmark? And would that style not eventually die out?

The of-Denmark style was first and foremost a security measure,
if you like, insisted upon by King Christian IX when Prince Vilhelm
was offered the Greek throne by the Great Powers in 1863.

King Christian was aware that taking on the Greek throne was
risky business, and in case Vilhelm/George I was ousted he would be
rendered stateless. Thus the -of Denmark style was included as a
legal technicality, which would enable the Danish monarch to provide
King George and his family with Danish passports. With prophetic
foresight I might add, as this provision has been activated several times
over the years!

As far as I know ex-king Constantine and his family are still holding
Danish diplomatic passports. Note the italics! It means that they
have a legally valid piece of paper providing them with a nominal
nationality. However they have no citizen rights as such, nor are they
in the line of succession to the Danish throne, nor are they members
of the Danish royal House. They are members of the extended RF only.

Viv
 
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It is true than no one can run unless they are Greek citizens and the royal family carry Danish passports.

Yes, that would be very interesting to know?
This might be the answer to why the Greek Royal family has a special status in Denmark.
 
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