Titles, Surname and Protocols for the Royal Family

[Alexandria]

Originally Posted by branchg

This is the correct way to look at it. As members of the Royal House of Greece, Pavlos and his wife/children are appropriately known as Prince/Princess of Greece and Denmark as a courtesy title (similar to a last name). But they have no royal status beyond being members of a formerly reigning dynasty.

They are not Royal Highnesses and are not treated with the precedence of a royal highness by the other royal houses of Europe. They are treated with the courtesies of Prince and his spouse.

Does this mean that the offspring of Pavlos's children and their children and their children, et. al. could continue to infinitely use the Prince and Princess title even in a courtesy manner?

This is what I find confusing about this entire situation -- how it is that the Crown Prince of a disposed monarchy could pass on titles to his offspring.

You can see that even in reigning monarchies the children of princes do not automatically get the title of prince or princesses. For example, in the Netherlands, Prince Constantijn, son of the Queen and the fourth in line to the throne, his two children have the title of Countess Eloise and Count Claus-Casimir rather than Princess Eloise and Prince Claus-Casimir. Granted Constantijn is the youngest son and not the Crown Prince as Pavlos is -- although Pavlos as Crown Prince is rather a moot point since he'll never inherit the throne.

It would seem to me that if you just read cursory mentions of Constantijn and Pavlos' children, it would seem that Constantijn's children would have lesser titles than Pavlos' children, which technically wouldn't be accurate.

Right? Or have I completely muddled up everything? (At any rate I am learning a lot from everyone here; this issue endlessly fascinates me!)

[Anna_R]

Originally Posted by Alexandria

You can see that even in reigning monarchies the children of princes do not automatically get the title of prince or princesses. For example, in the Netherlands, Prince Constantijn, son of the Queen and the fourth in line to the throne, his two children have the title of Countess Eloise and Count Claus-Casimir rather than Princess Eloise and Prince Claus-Casimir. Granted Constantijn is the youngest son and not the Crown Prince as Pavlos is -- although Pavlos as Crown Prince is rather a moot point since he'll never inherit the throne.

Yes, in Spain it doesn't happen either. Although the siblings of monarchs get dukedoms upon marriage, those are not hereditary, they just come back to the state after the passing of their beholders.

Neither one of Juan Carlos siblings or grandchildren have titles. Their grandchildren have the distinction of "Great of Spain" and treatment of Excellence, but they're not princes or princesses. This is rather confusing...

Just another comment, Queen Anne-Marie is originally a Princess of Denmark, she didn't lose the title upon marriage. Aren't all of her children Princes of Denmark by birth?

I remember someone mentioning something in the lines of "Princes of Denmark" and "Princes to Denmark" but I didn't quite get what's the difference.

[branchg]

Originally Posted by Anna_R

Yes, in Spain it doesn't happen either. Although the siblings of monarchs get dukedoms upon marriage, those are not hereditary, they just come back to the state after the passing of their beholders.

Neither one of Juan Carlos siblings or grandchildren have titles. Their grandchildren have the distinction of "Great of Spain" and treatment of Excellence, but they're not princes or princesses. This is rather confusing...

Just another comment, Queen Anne-Marie is originally a Princess of Denmark, she didn't lose the title upon marriage. Aren't all of her children Princes of Denmark by birth?

I remember someone mentioning something in the lines of "Princes of Denmark" and "Princes to Denmark" but I didn't quite get what's the difference.

Anne-Marie remains HRH Princess of Denmark (as the daughter and sister of Danish Sovereigns), however, her children hold the title Prince/Princess of Greece and Denmark as a courtesy style through King Constantine. As an example, Pavlos, Prince of Greece and Denmark (similar to a surname). They are not HRH, but considered to be members of the extended royal family of Denmark.

[branchg]

Well, since Pavlos is the eldest son and heir to the Head of the Royal House of Greece, it is considered appropriate royal protocol that his children are known by their courtesy titles as Prince/Princess of Greece and Denmark.

The matter is less clear for Constantine and Anne-Marie's other children, but as a general rule, these grandchildren may also have the right to carry courtesy titles. Such matters often depend on the Rules of the Royal House in question and the tradition of the monarchy while it still reigned.

I would think all of King Constantine's future grandchildren through the male line would be known as Prince/Princess of Greece and Denmark as his wish, but it is possible he could grant them another style and title (or none) as Head of the House. This is all within his perogative.

[Sean.~]

Originally Posted by branchg

Well, since Pavlos is the eldest son and heir to the Head of the Royal House of Greece, it is considered appropriate royal protocol that his children are known by their courtesy titles as Prince/Princess of Greece and Denmark.

The matter is less clear for Constantine and Anne-Marie's other children, but as a general rule, these grandchildren may also have the right to carry courtesy titles. Such matters often depend on the Rules of the Royal House in question and the tradition of the monarchy while it still reigned.

I would think all of King Constantine's future grandchildren through the male line would be known as Prince/Princess of Greece and Denmark as his wish, but it is possible he could grant them another style and title (or none) as Head of the House. This is all within his perogative.

The general rule of thumb is that only those styles that were in use at the time of the monarchy be used by a house exile or after the end of the monarchy, and that the house laws in effect at the fall of the monarchy be followed as much as possible in order to maintain some legitimacy. Thus I doubt other styles and titles will be created, as there were no titles of nobility permitted in Greece. Similarly, the rules governing succession to the headship of the house are likely to remain same (e.g. the former Romanian King will not name his daughter "Crown Princess" because the Romanian constitution forbade female succession).

[Alisa]

Originally Posted by Anna_R

Just another comment, Queen Anne-Marie is originally a Princess of Denmark, she didn't lose the title upon marriage. Aren't all of her children Princes of Denmark by birth?

I remember someone mentioning something in the lines of "Princes of Denmark" and "Princes to Denmark" but I didn't quite get what's the difference.

" Prince(ss) til Denmark " are those that have succession rights and "Prince(ss) af Denmark" don't.

When Queen Anne-Marie got married she renounced her succession rights (and consequently those of her descendants) she thus went from a "Princess til Denmark" to a "Princess af Denmark".

Queen Anne-Marie's children are also Princess of Denmark but that is from the Greek title, it is completely independent of the fact that Queen Anne-Marie is a Danish Princess.

[Frothy]

Well, since Pavlos is the eldest son and heir to the Head of the Royal House of Greece, it is considered appropriate royal protocol that his children are known by their courtesy titles as Prince/Princess of Greece and Denmark.

No, it isn't. There is no royal house of the Republic of Greece, and it is not appropriate to call Pavlos a Prince of a republic - as the Greek ambassadors protest on behalf of the Greek people. Let's not forget that the choice to be a republic was overwhelming in the referendum they had. Their choice matters! BUT I'm still trying to get a legal answer from someone as to if he's a Prince of Denmark at all, or if that title died when the Greek title died upon proclamation of the Republic of Greece. Pavlos is heir to nothing as far as Greece goes and his children are heirs to nothing.

[Frothy]

I feel like I'm a voice in the wilderness a bit, but what is meant here by 'courtesy'? Exactly the opposite, discourtesy, is shown to the Greeks by any reference to these guys as Kings and Princes of their freely chosen Republic?

It's so rude to them. No wonder their representatives protest.

[H.M. Margrethe]

Originally Posted by Sean.~

These magazines are often not authorities on such matters, and are prone to giving wrong answers. As I've stated before they are Princes/ss of Denmark by virtue of being Princes/ss of Greece. They aren't Princes/ss of Denmark on their own.

Frothy, you can try posting your query with my answer on the Scandanavian Royals Message Board. There are numerous real experts who visit that board from time-to-time. I would post it myself, but I don't have a password (too many boards, too many passwords, so little time!).

Well Sean i have to say one thing to you about the magazin: That person i was mailing my question is one of the most reliable person about the history in the Danish Royal Family. He is a former journalist and has been adviser for the 2 biggest TV stations DR and TV2 when ther is an occasion in the Royal family.
His name is Poul Jørgnsen...I think that the Danish members of this forum knows him like i do.

[MoonlightRhapsody]

I am so unbelievably confused after reading this page of posts!

Anyway, adding my two cents in for the original topic of the thread...I don't like Marie-Chantal. Granted, I don't really know the woman, but my impressions of her are not positive ones. From what I've seen, she likes to flaunt her family and her position as a member of the non-reigning Greek Royal family and her title as Crown Princess in magazines. And even her title isn't hers. It's a courtesy title and it's Crown Princess Pavlos, not Crown Princess Marie-Chantal; it's not even her own. Bah, I just don't like her.

Anyway, continue the topic of what her children are called; I'm still pretty confused! I'm a visual learner and a diagram would be helpful (just kidding...)

[oxynia]

My understanding of the whole title subject is this: upon being deposed, Constantine and his family lost the HRH standing (much like Diana did upon divorce from Charles). He is still called "king" in certain circles as a courtesy (yes, I too hate that word as it is indeed a discourtesy to me and my fellow Greeks who simply refer to him as the ex-king, but there you have it).

However, since hereditary titles are abolished in Greece, no-one subsequently born to or married into the family is entitled to a title of any sort. That includes Constantine's younger children and children-in-law (including M-C...sorry lady, you're just Mrs. Glucksburg). Certainly none of them can be considered HRH by any definition. It's only the other royals of Europe who continue to regard them as such, as there but for the grace of God go themselves... It's an act of self-preservation on their part.

Constantine and his family are no longer royal. Period. You simply cannot be king of a republic. He needs to wake up and smell the ouzo.

[Idriel]

Originally Posted by Frothy

I feel like I'm a voice in the wilderness a bit, but what is meant here by 'courtesy'? Exactly the opposite, discourtesy, is shown to the Greeks by any reference to these guys as Kings and Princes of their freely chosen Republic?
It's so rude to them. No wonder their representatives protest.

So do you think we French should be offended to have people calling themselves 'count of Paris', 'Jean of France', etc. when we axed our monarchy centuries ago? And what about the imperial family of Austria? the royal family of Bavaria? And so on.
Maybe you think only members of reigning family should carry titles? Do I understand your point?
Because if it's not the case, I don't see why Pavlos and MC should not be allowed to carry tiltles and styles just like dozens of other European "royals" from axed royal families.
And to answer the thread, this MC irritates me very much. Her hubby seems nice though.

[marlene]

Why are we calling MC and her family the Glucksbergs? Did I miss something?

[Idriel]

Originally Posted by marlene

Why are we calling MC and her family the Glucksbergs? Did I miss something?

That's their family name. To fully understand, take a look at this excellent tread: The real name of Royal families, at Royal Chit Chat.
Here a link: The Real Names Of The Royal Families

You'll see, it's very informative.

[EmpressRouge]

In interviews, he mentions wanting to return to Greece and live as an average citizen, but that's very hard to buy if one keeps wanting himself addressed as King. He likes to remind people that the Greek republic is not the most stable gov't in the world, and that he's still around if the people wanted him back. But I doubt that because today's Greek gov't is probably much more stable than it was during Constantine's reign. Other former rulers who had longer reigns than he did have dutifully accepted their new status, adopted last names, and were welcomed back to their countries as citizens. Constantine could do the same if he wanted to.

[Reina]

Could someone enlighten me as to how KC got involved in the political affairs? Thank you.

[EmpressRouge]

Originally Posted by Reina

Could someone enlighten me as to how KC got involved in the political affairs? Thank you.

From what I've read, Constantine was very popular when he first became king. The Greeks saw him as a young, fresh, foward-thinking monarch, but Constantine decided to rule instead of just reign like other constitutional monarchs. He and his mother, Queen Frederika, were heavily involved in the day-to-day politics of Greece. Unfortunately, he frequently clashed w/ the Prime Minister, George Papandreou, which led to great instability in the government and the military. Eventually that allowed a military group knowns as the Colonels overthrew the government in a coup d'etat. Constantine tried to take back power in a counter-coup, which failed miserably, and he and his family were forced to flee. Many Greeks blamed him for the instability that led to the coup and following dictatorship and saw him as a coward for fleeing the country. If you compare Constantine's actions to those of his brother-in-law Juan Carlos after the restoration of the Spanish monarchy, you can see the contrast in the fates of these monarchies.

[Idriel]

Originally Posted by Genevieve

if he loved Greece so much why not just leave it alone rather than dragging it through the court system to regain his property or to insist that he be addressed the King of Greece or that his children and grandchildren have the right to use Prince and Princess of Greece?

Genevieve, I don't understand why he would not be allowed to recover properties which belonged to his family for ages. I don't think anyone should be spoiled of his inheritance, whatever their wealth or status.
But are there any laws in Greece preventing that to happen?