Titles, Surname and Protocols for the Royal Family


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Fanaticism in any direction is of bad advice.
Albeit living abroad, I am also a Greek citizen and entitled to have an opinion on the matter.
King Constantine was annointed and as such he shall remain king for life. It is true that he is NO more king of Greece but continues to be king [without territoriality]
 
Ok about the citizenship situation I have a question (mainly to our Greek posters I guess who must know a few things about that) that just occured to my mind : Let's just say that the greeks royals and the Politicians somehow manage to solve their differences and the whole family is granted Greek citizenship - what happens next regardring the men and the army? Since serving in the army is mandatory here for the men I guess they would have to serve too - well not Constantine since he is certainly too old (70 going to 71) so he must be excluded from this obligation ( besides he has served in the past, not that it counts nowadays I guess:ermm:). Philippos being 24 to 25 would certainly be required to serve but how about Pavlos (43) and Nikolaos (41), are they still eligible to be called ? And would Nikolaos and Philippos have to serve the whole time? (I exclude Pavlos because as the father of five he would have to serve much less) I am a girl so I have no idea about the details of serving in the army here , never bothered :D
 
King Constantine did his instructions in Greek Army Special Forces Lok, and he also practices in aviation. He was the head of the Greek army. Military service is compulsory until age 45, Prince Paul is about to attaining that age, yet he and Prince Nikolaos has done military service abroad, in Britain, I do not know if this could have an effect in Greece I think so, because foreigners who acquire Greek citizenship, if they have military service abroad, it is validated, I think. Prince Filip has not done his military service, he might have to make it, I think.
 
This would be funny that politicians will return to Constantine nationality and then those same politicians , who have no military service or have done a questionable military service, will require Filippos for make the military service. And I'm sure that Prince would make the service military.:lol:
 
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I've been looking for information about foreign military service and I'm not sure, the Greeks who must do military service are was born in Greece or Greeks of birth , but I don´t really know the situation of persons who have acquired nationality subsequently.
 
Earlier today I read information on the internet about the 1815 Congress of Vienna. I was researching the use of royal titles in ousted royal families. To make a long story short, Constantine has a Danish passport because he is no longer a Greek citizen. The same applies to his family. The Greek government has requested, for Constantine and his family, only for the family to take a last name to enable them to enjoy Greek citizenship again. As of this date, he and his family have simply refused to do such. Does anyone know the 'official' reason given to the public? The 'unofficial' reason?
 
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The Vienna Convention is a Treaty, which states that the titles of nobility are personals, unavailable to governments. A person who has the title of King may lose consideration for head of state but it still maintains the title, that is, former King. ..... .

This treaty has not now been repealed why it can be used, continues in force.

the problem of nationality:

It is complicated of explain.

One summary:There are two types differentiate of nationality: original (it is determined by the site where born the person or by nationality of the parents when the person born, this is the first nationality that one person has) and derivative (It is the subsequent nationality acquired ).

One reason is that the Royal Decree of 1994 that deprives to the members of the royal family of their original nationality does not fit the international treaties because the international treaties prohibit deprivation of originaly nationality .
 
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Beltraneja,
I thank you very much for explaining the guidelines for nationality according to the 1815 Congress of Vienna. Again, my original question remains unanswered. It seems as though many who want Greece restored to a monarchy, simply want so based on emotions (endearment), and out of sympathy toward the GRF. I do not know your age, but it seems as though the GRF simply has sentimental value to you. I see Constantine's efforts to invoke sympathy for his family have indeed paid off. I myself am not so, well, foolish. If something is meant to be - it will happen in it's own good time.
 
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sorry for creating confusion, but the Vienna Convention does not regulate the nationality , it regulates the titles of nobility and was created to avoid conflicts between the state, in its articles has referring to titles of nobility like personals. Nationality is regulated in other agreements of the twentieth century, which regulates the right to nationality. In my opinion it is one motive. I f one person is privated of his originary nationality by law, it is affirm that this person doesn´t exist..these persons don´t exist.
 
Beltraneja,
You still did get the point of the question asked to you. Again, subject changed by you. Here is my question: Why has not the former king of Greece taken a last name? This is the only reason he has not been given back his Greek citizenship. It is simply such an easy step for this family to take care of. Again, why has not he not done this very simple task? I have my on ideas why, but would like you to present your information on this particular situation.
 
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ahhh it was this!! To Not to give pleasure to many Greeks and politicians of power affirm that the greek royal family were danish who invaded Greece in XIX century ,....because the law was made to this.. By this is motive that the law affect to the originary nationality and to all members of the Royal family, live or died......And other motive, the tombstones of the cemetery of Tatoi will not have to be changed...
 
I totally agree with you Beltraena, this was the purpose of the law, if they really wanted to force the family to accept a surname, it was as easy as did not renewed their passport, did not need a law that deprived of all identity and property to the family. . They were deprived of their passport and first nationality (Territory and nationality of their parents), the passport of one man is one paper, the passport of one dead man is his tombstone. But the purpose of the law has not been yet fulfilled.
 
It seems those who are in favor of a monarchy in Greece cannot, or will not, 'absorb' the fact there is no GRF, because the laws in Greece were changed by those who did not see a positive future for Greece if the monarchy stayed in place. Sentimental value seems the only reason to restore what once was. Constantine's refusal to choose a surname, which would restore his Greek citizenship, only proves his inability to go forward and accept the reality of his fate. The Greek government does not 'owe' the ex-king his restoration to a non-existent throne.
 
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If the government wanted that the old Family Royal would accepted one surname, they only should to have denied of passport to the family. But the law deprive of passport + original nationality, deleted the territory where was born the person and nationality of parents (The law became to the persons affected, in persons is not born in Greek territory and their parents was not nationality of Greece. The law was made to consider to the Greek royal family as foreigners by law, all living and dead, The law say that they can received greek nationality if they accept one surname and others conditions,..........if they accept the surname they would accept the contents of the law, this is: '- If They recognize the content of the law, they will recognize that are foreing that acquere the nationality of Greece: - If they agree to those requirements that the law determines , they will recognize that never were not born in Greek territory and that their parents were not Greeks (they would renounce their original nationality). -The headstones are considered by law identifying of the dead person , if they would accept the conditions of the law, and other requirements ...... the tombstones in the cemetery of Tatoi lose its status of legal identification of the dead person , because his new condition would be regulated by this law of 1994, it would considered to the died persons ,foreigners.
 
Beltraneja,
I do understand your sympathy and loyalty toward the ex-king's family. I also believe the current Greek government is very harsh to him and his family. I am sure the government has reasons, whether anyone agrees or disagrees, for the various laws enacted regarding what once was the GRF.
Your words in your response stated above have only proved there is no GRF. With time comes inevitable changes. These changes have never, or will ever have regard for human emotions. To put it simply, my feelings on this subject and your feelings on this subject, do not change what is. As per Greek law, a royal family of Greece does not exist.
 
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I believe that you are making a few mistakes Beltraneja. The law says that the wasa special relationship bewteen the GRF and the state concening nationality and that their nationality was attached to the monarchy's existence: when there was an active King , he and his family member were Greeks, when the Throne stopped existing, the members of the family lost their nationality as well, and that there is historical precedence for this treatment, according to the 1924 decrees. So according to this line of thinking, the ancestors who lived and died during the Monarchy are Greeks but the current family isn't. I hope that I am right in intepreting what I read :flowers:
 
I'm not in any mistake, the original nationality is determined by two factors, being born in this territory or nationality that the parents have in moment of birth. The Act abolishes the nationality is irrelevant reason that justifies it, because the nationality of origin is protected by international treaties, human rights declaration of 1948, the New York Convention on the decade of 60,
Sofia, Constantine and Alexia, Paul were born in Greek territory, their originally nationality : Greek

Irene Nicolas, were born on foreign but their parents had Greek nationality their originally nationality is Greek .

The originally nationality can not be delete by law, becuase aren´t laws who determine it, it is territory and nationality of the parents..if is delete by law, it delete circumstances, events that occurred, For example. Princess Alexia was born in Palace of Mon repos in 10 july of 1965...........You can not delete it by law. Because it happened
 
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:previous:Oh no, I was not reffering to the current family part as mistake , but were you said that the 1994 regulation declared the dead royals foreigners , because the regulation does not affect their status, according to the regulation if they died during the Kingdom's time thy were Greek (not to mention that it would be silly for any law to claim someone dead over a century or 70 years suddenly loses its nationality ;) Anyway what I don't understand is why this matter was not settled after the referendum, IMO they should have simply asked Constantine then to get a surname and swear allegiance to the Constitution in order to continue being Greek, it should have been resolved years before 1994
 
George Papandreou , present Primer minister of Greece, was born in the USA, not born in Greek territory, but his parents when he was born had the greek nationality, his mother had not lived never in Greece .The Princess Irini when she was born her parents had greek nationality . The law delete the nationality of King pavlo and Queen Federika =Princess Irini no greek nationality.
 
I am confused about your point of your above post. As this is a discussion forum, truthfully, why does this present situation affect you so much? How would you benefit if the Greek monarchy was restored? How would the international community/policies benefit also? Or Are you just being sentimental toward the former GRF?
Greece today, as in all countries, has problems that need to be 'fixed.' I do not believe the restoration of the GRF will solve the many complex problems facing Greece today. I do hope for the GRF, especially Constantine, to accept their fate that has stared them in the face for the past 35-45 years.
 
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snowflower said:
:previous:Oh no, I was not reffering to the current family part as mistake , but were you said that the 1994 regulation declared the dead royals foreigners , because the regulation does not affect their status, according to the regulation if they died during the Kingdom's time thy were Greek (not to mention that it would be silly for any law to claim someone dead over a century or 70 years suddenly loses its nationality ;) Anyway what I don't understand is why this matter was not settled after the referendum, IMO they should have simply asked Constantine then to get a surname and swear allegiance to the Constitution in order to continue being Greek, it should have been resolved years before 1994
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Wouldn't that be discrimination?
After the 1974 fall of the junta and the return of democracy the borders were wide open for all to return. Men who fought during the civil war, killed fellow Greeks and fled to the communist countries, were allowed to return, run for election and become MPs. So far that I know, no one was asked or invited to pledge allegiance to the 1974 constitution. They were all embraced and celebrated.
The Royal family was not allowed to plead their case before the referendum and never disputed its results. They respected the will of the majority and had to ask for permission to return for a few houres to bury Q Frederica, then leave in haste since the government did not allow them to remain in Greece. This was way before the issue of the citizenship, the lawsuit or any demands about a last name.

NotHRH said:
I am confused about your point of your above post. As this is a discussion forum, truthfully, why does this present situation affect you so much? How would you benefit if the Greek monarchy was restored? How would the international community/policies benefit also? Or Are you just being sentimental toward the former GRF?
Greece today, as in all countries, has problems that need to be 'fixed.' I do not believe the restoration of the GRF will solve the many complex problems facing Greece today. I do hope for the GRF, especially Constantine, to accept their fate that has stared them in the face for the past 35-45 years.
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There is no doubt in anyone's mind that Greece has serious problems that need to be fixed, which are 100% the politicians' doings.
There is no doubt that the King has accepted the results of the 1974 referendum and never once did he interfere in Greek politics or affaires.
However when it comes to sentimentality, one has to wonder how come Greeks keep the same political families run their lives for decades on end without any accountability. Today's young vote the way their parents and grandparents always voted and belong to one party or the other because of the family's tradition. Isn't their mentality the same like those who have a warm and fuzzy feeling towards the Royal family?
 
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Great-grandchildren of Greek monarchs

Hello everyone,

I realize that with the Greek monarchy abolished this is a rather moot point, but since the private usage of royal titles within the Greek royal family continues perhaps there is room for this discussion:

Children and grandchildren of a King of the Hellenes have borne the style and title His/Her Royal Highness, Prince/Princess of Greece and Denmark. My question is, what style and title would be appropriate for a male-line great-grandchild of a Greek king? Example: when one of Crown Prince Pavlos' sons has children, they will be the great-grandchildren (through the male line) of King Constantine II. What sort of title would they hold?

In the United Kingdom, for example, prior to Letters Patent issued by King George V in 1917, male-line great-grandchildren of the British monarch were styled simply as "Highness", while children and grandchildren of the monarch were Royal Highnesses. Example: Prince Alastair of Connaught, grandson of Arthur, Duke of Connaught, was styled His Highness Prince Alastair of Connaught as a great-grandson of Queen Victoria. As we know, King George V revoked this in 1917 by limiting the style of Royal Highness to children and grandchildren of the sovereign, and by declaring that great-grandchildren of a sovereign who were not the eldest son of the son of the Prince of Wales would bear the style of children of non-royal Dukes.

In the Greek royal family, such a great-grandchild has yet to come up. Most great-grandchildren of King George I were/are members of other royal houses and so Greek titles do not apply to them. Also, there was a limited number of Greek princes in the second generation of the Greek royal family -- aside from Kings George II, Alexander and Paul (whose children, of course, all bear the style of Royal Highness) there was Prince Philip (whose descendants are part of the British royal house); Prince Michael (who has daughters that did not receive full Greek royal titles), and Prince Peter, who did not have any children. Aside from these three cousins, all other grandchildren of King George I were females who married into other houses.

Hopefully someone can offer some insight? Thank you!
 
:previous: That's a very interesting question, I would also like to know the answer.

Though if we are to go by most non-reigning royal families and their titles, it seems that Pavlos' sons (excluding Constantine as he will be the next pretender and most definitely pass on his titles) will continue to pass on royal titles, i.e. Archduke Lorenz passing on Archduke/Archduchess titles to his children who are great-grandchildren of a deceased former Emperor...
 
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The question can possibly be answered by separating the dual identities of members of the Royal Family. While they are in effect an "ex" royal family in relation to what is now the Greek (or Hellenic) Republic, within the Gotha they remain a branch of the House of Schleswig-Holstein-Sonderburg-Glucksburg. Members of what we could call the Greek line continue to bear royal styles and [now historical] royal titles. Protocols which may have existed within the former Kingdom of Greece may not necessarily apply to the family which is no longer a State entity. King Constantine, as well as being a former Sovereign, is also independently Head of this branch of the S-H-S-G dynasty and thus able to make whatever rules he chooses regarding the use of the styles and titles. Crown Prince Pavlos will no doubt do the same when he eventually succeeds to the Headship.
 
King George A when he became king of Greece, he created a title for the chief of the Greek royal House, was the King of the Hellenes, it is diferent to King of Greece . King Constantine, is the King of the Hellenes, it is a noble title to identify the chief of the Royal house. The King of the Hellenes, I think that in the future, this title may be inherited by Prince Paul even being Greece a republic because it identifies the cheif of the Greek royal House. The children of Prince Paul are Princes of Greece and Denmark and Crown Prince Constantine Alexius will be the future Crown Prince.
 
The children of Crown Prince Paul in future they will have treatment of HRH. The sons of sons of the prince Paul, this is his grandchildren(Only boys) will be treatment of Princes, except the children of Crown Prince Constantine Alexius they will be Princes with treatment of HRH. The sons of Prince Nikolaos will be PRinces of Greece but they will have not treatment of HRH .
 
The title of Prince without treatment of "HRH" , is only limited, I would say it is not really a title of Prince.
 
Lumutqueen said:
They are related to the Danish Royal family yes, but they are not part of the 'royal' family nor in line for the Danish Throne. They are listed as part of the Greek Royal Family in this forum.
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They are still 'of Greece and Denmark'.

In Danish there is a distinction between the wording of the royal house and the Greek house but in English it comes across the same.

All of the Greek royal family are entitled to use the 'of Denmark' as they are Princes of Denmark but not in line to the throne as the descendents of Queen Anne Marie (Margethe's sister) as she gave up her rights when she married Constantine.

Not being in line to the throne doesn't stop them from being Princes/Princesses 'of Greece and Denmark'. In fact they are more 'of Denmark' than 'of Greece' as the Greek government stripped them of their royal titles while the Danish government has never done so.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Danish_Royal_Family Most of the members of the deposed Royal Family of Greece hold the title of Prince or Princess of Denmark with the qualification of His or Her Highness because their male line ancestor, George I of Greece, was born a Danish prince and, until 1953, his dynastic male-line descendants remained in Denmark's line of hereditary succession. So, they are members of the Danish Royal Family.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Line_of_succession_to_the_Danish_throne Before 1953, various descendants of King Christian IX had succession rights in Denmark. The new Act of Succession terminated those rights but left the individuals involved in possession of their titles. This created a class of people with royal titles but no rights to the throne. As a distinction, those entitled to inherit the throne are called "Prins til Danmark" (Prince to Denmark, although this distinction is not made in English) while those without succession rights are referred to as "Prins af Danmark" (Prince of Denmark). Although the Greek and Norwegian (and partly British) royal families are genealogically part of the Danish royal family, they are not descended from King Christian X and do not have any rights to the Danish throne. Norwegian royals dropped all references to Denmark in their titles but Greek royals continue to use the title "Prince(ss) of Greece and Denmark."


As the royals are all so interrelated they all have connections it makes sense that they are only listed under one royal family but that doesn't change the fact that the Greeks are 'of Greece and Denmark' (or that other royal families could use the 'of Denmark' or 'of UK' but don't do so).
 
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NotHRH said:
Numerous occurances happened to this family in those 21 years. Sadly this family really needs to use their surname or decide on one. There is legally and constitutionally no longer a GRF and I have seen 'de Grecia' ('of Greece') as their surname before. Sounds like a winner to me.
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NotHRH I agree! This family needs to get a grip on their factual situation in stead of hovering around a has -been monarchy which not longer wants them in that capacity. The former King keeps saying that he's accepted the fact that the Greek prefer a republic, but it's not always reflected in his actions. His refusal to take a surname is childish, IMHO.
The Danish titles of the former Greek RF are understandably confusing people:)! Back in 1863, when Prince Willy (Vilhelm) was offered the Greek throne by the Great Powers, his father inisisted that Willy and his descendants kept their Danish titles ( and at the time also the succession rights to the Danish throne!!) as a precautionary measure because the Greek throne was anything but stable! Old King Christian IX was said to be very worried about "exporting" his son to Greece. In case Willy and his family was dethroned, he would not be rendered stateless, but could be reinstated in the Danish rf.
Actually the first detronement didn't happen till much later (1922), and the family have since been issued with Danish diplomatic passports giving them a national affiliation but not they are not granted full citizen's rights, as far as I know. Since 1953 the Greek RF are no longer in the Danish line of succession.

NotHRH said:
Or maybe the Danish queen will allow the GRF to use only their Danish royal titles???????
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Out of courtesy the royal Danish court are using their original styles and titles but without any reference to Greece (the Hellenes).

viv
 
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