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  #181  
Old 12-22-2009, 07:22 AM
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Originally Posted by Odette View Post
Absolutely! They speak the language, adopted the faith and either fought with or trained (until King Constantine's time) in the Greek Armed forces. Besides they also settled their tax liabilities to the Greek State.
That is more than some other citizens of the country can claim.
I concur with the above!
One thing I cannot understand, though, is why King Constantine doesn't comply with the name-adoption issue and have it all behind him. They are as Greek as anybody else. Besides, according to Isocrates (not Socrates but Isocrates) whoever has received Greek education and shares the Greek culture is Greek - period!

In fact, I believe strenuously that it is the strong magnetism that the Greek culture and locale exert upon him that make King Constantine feel so home-sick [like every Greek who lives abroad, no matter how rich or how famous and successful he/she may be].

He is free, anyway, to live in Greece permanently irrespective of the surname adoption. King Constantine was the King of the Hellenes for ten years, and still is and shall always be King. The latter thing cannot change whether he adopts a surname like Glucksburg or not. It is felt, therefore, that now that animosities have settled, it is high time that he took the initiative and settled the issue himself.
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  #182  
Old 12-22-2009, 07:57 AM
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Glucksburg is not surname, it is the name of a German territory, in this territory was born a title of nobility, this title of nobility served to identify the descendants of the first Prince of Glucksburg .The Greek politicians use this name as Family surname but it is not surname. The surname is the surname that had the first Prince of Glucksburg, this is the problem, nobody know what surname had this Prince before of title nobility((Gluckssurg)
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  #183  
Old 12-26-2009, 06:04 AM
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Originally Posted by Warren View Post

Princess Olga, the daughter of Prince Michael of Greece.
see:
Princess Olga (pre-marriage)
Prince Aimone and Princess Olga of Savoy-Aosta (post-marriage)
I am not well versed in the topic.
My understanding though is that the only case in the history of (the second) Greek Monarchy (1863 - 1974) of a commoner getting elevated to princely status was that of Madame Aspasia Manos who, by royal decree by King Constantine I (who following the death of his son King Alexander, re-ascended to the Throne) was created HRH The Princess Alexandra of Greece and, automatically, the newborn girl, issue of the marriage, became HRH The Princess Alexandra of Greece (the later Queen of Yugoslavia).

In line with the above, I understand that, although Prince Michael was married in or around 1965 at the Royal Palace and in the presence of the Royal Family, his mariage did not carry "constitutional validity". In result, he resigned his rights in the Line of Succession and his bride was and remains, Madame Marina Karellas - nothing less and nothing more than that. In this setting how can any issue of this marriage be styled as prince/princess. Can someone throw some light here?
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  #184  
Old 12-26-2009, 06:18 AM
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There is no disagreement on what you are saying, but any royal family, in the end and traditionally, goes by what the name of the royal house is. Am I wrong here? For example the Norwegian royal family use Glucksburg, the Spanish royal family use Borbon y Borbon and the British ones, Windsor.
Although it is none of my business, or anybody else's for that matter, to tell King Constantine which name to adopt, should he adopt one (and this would NOT change his status - he is King and shall always be King), the whole non-issue that was unfortunately elevated to an issue by both sides, would be eliminated and everybody would live happily therefater.
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  #185  
Old 12-28-2009, 03:39 AM
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Good morning and Happy Holidays to everyone! It is true that Glucksbourg is the name of a German territory but it is also true that the surname Borbon y Borbon is King Juan Carlos΄surname only. The next generation, that is Prince Felipe and Infantas, are Borbon y Grecia, which means that their mother΄s surname is Grecia(of Greece).
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  #186  
Old 12-28-2009, 10:55 AM
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The Norwegian royal family members use Glucksburg as their surname. This confirms that this specific princely house's small city-origin has been, and is being, used in lieu of surname - which is in the tradition of many Germanic city-states, county-states etc etc.

Queen Sofia was born a princess of Greece. Of Greece (y Grecia, in her case) was not and is not a surname, it denotes country of provenance. Besides, her father, grandfather and great-gragdfather were not kings of Greece, but kings of the Hellenes, denoting the people they ruled, in distinction from the land.
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  #187  
Old 12-28-2009, 11:28 AM
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You are right of course, they were kings of the Hellenes, and Glucksburg could be used as a surname. I just think they do not want a German surname, that΄s all. It bothers them not to have a Greek surname, that is why they cling to of Greece...
Perhaps they should do what the British moharch did when he changed the Royal Family΄s German surname to Windsor...
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  #188  
Old 12-29-2009, 12:22 AM
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It is true that Prince Michael resigned his rights to the succesion on the Greek throne but he retained his title ( his birthright) and as such his two daughters carry the titles of Princesses of Greece. His marriage was approved by the King but because it was unequal it was morganatic.
I can see nowhere that Mme Marina Karella was elevated to a Princess although all social magazines refer to her as Princess Marina of Greece.

BTW I just finished the book of Alexandros & Aspasia and I agree about the elevation of Mme Aspasia Manos to HRH after the birth of her little daughter. I tend to believe the reason she became HRH was to extend the title to the King's grandaughter and provide Mme Manos with the standing she earned as a widow of K Alexandros.
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  #189  
Old 12-29-2009, 06:51 AM
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Originally Posted by Odette View Post
It is true that Prince Michael resigned his rights to the succesion on the Greek throne but he retained his title ( his birthright) and as such his two daughters carry the titles of Princesses of Greece. His marriage was approved by the King but because it was unequal it was morganatic.
I can see nowhere that Mme Marina Karella was elevated to a Princess although all social magazines refer to her as Princess Marina of Greece.
Indeed, such marriages are (called) morganatic. I did not use the term, on purpose however, because in Greece (according to the then Constitutions), children and grandchildren of Kings, except for the Heir, had no constitutional/legal standing or constitutional role to play, and were not recipients of Civil List etc etc. Thus, their existence was limited arbitrarily to functions of style, reverence etc, but not of substance.

On the other hand, considering that the Royal World is an international community with its own rules, it is important to remember that old-standing royal or princely houses have historically respected, at a minimum, the Gotha protocol, which deals extensively with such matters and, inter alia, addresses (rightly or wrongly) differently the offspring of morganatic marriages unless otherwise handled by Acts or Decrees by a Royal or princely House Head (as in the case of Mme Manos, princess Alexandra and many others in history).

Last but not least, and from an entirely technical/scientific/historical perspective, one may argue that either Mme XYZ who married prince ABC became a princess in which case the issue are also princes/ses or that she remains a commoner/noblewoman in which case the offspring is at best a noble personage (usually a count/ess but not a prince/ss).
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  #190  
Old 12-29-2009, 11:15 AM
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Will the wife of Prince Nicolaos be a Royal Highness?!
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  #191  
Old 12-29-2009, 11:32 AM
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She will take her husband's style and title and so will be HRH Princess Nikolaos of Greece.

It is highly unlikely that she will be created a Princess in her own right although some media will probably refer to her after marriage as "Princess Tatiana" which she technically won't be. In the same manner, Crown Prince Pavlos's wife is rightfully titled "Crown Princess Pavlos" and not "Princess Marie Chantal".
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  #192  
Old 12-29-2009, 04:05 PM
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If "Greece" can not be surname because it is a place, Glucksburg can not be surname in Greece because it is other place, it is in Germany, and formerly here had a title of nobility , it was Prince Glucksburg. In Norway is posible that the places can be surname, and in other States...But if in Greece can not be surname places, Glucksburg can not be it , the surname will be surname that had the first Prince of Glucksburg, but nobody know who was him?...

NOW, the surname of Constantine in Greece is "Greece"

In Greece, I think that the places can be surname if the person is not nationality of Greece.Constantine is nacionality of Denmark, in Greece his surname is "Greece" ( in danish or english).

If he would have the greek nacionality, he could not use "Greece" and "Glucksburg" as surname, becuase in Greece it is not surname, it are places..
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  #193  
Old 12-29-2009, 04:50 PM
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She will take her husband's style and title and so will be HRH Princess Nikolaos of Greece.

It is highly unlikely that she will be created a Princess in her own right although some media will probably refer to her after marriage as "Princess Tatiana" which she technically won't be. In the same manner, Crown Prince Pavlos's wife is rightfully titled "Crown Princess Pavlos" and not "Princess Marie Chantal".
But before woman who married into the greek Royal Family where styled by their own name like Princess Alice of Greece, née Princess of Battenberg or Princess Marie of Greece, née Princess Bonaparte. And they where never created Princesses in their own right.
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  #194  
Old 12-29-2009, 06:33 PM
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Originally Posted by BELTRANEJA View Post
But if in Greece can not be surname places, Glucksburg can not be it , the surname will be surname that had the first Prince of Glucksburg, but nobody know who was him?...
Friedrich Wilhelm (1785-1831), born Hereditary Prince of Schleswig-Holstein-Sonderburg-Beck became the first Duke of Glucksburg in 1825 and took the title of Duke of Schleswig-Holstein-Sonderburg-Glucksburg.
He was of the House of Oldenburg. Since there was no official surname, Oldenburg comes closest.

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But before woman who married into the greek Royal Family where styled by their own name like Princess Alice of Greece, née Princess of Battenberg or Princess Marie of Greece, née Princess Bonaparte. And they where never created Princesses in their own right.
Not strictly comparable as both Princess Alice and Princess Marie were Princesses in their own right before their marriages.
By contrast, Tatiana will acquire the title of Princess [Nikolaos] through her marriage.
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  #195  
Old 12-30-2009, 03:33 AM
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Within Greece, they were officially called Princess Andrew, Princess George and so on, at least that is how they are mentioned in History books, biographies and so on. Mind you, very few commoners had married into the Greek royal family back then, so almost every Princess had come from a royal or noble background but was of course using her husband's name at least within Greece.
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  #196  
Old 12-30-2009, 06:55 AM
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Your statements are correct.

By the way, in addition to Mme Aspasia Manos, there is one more case of a female* commoner marrying into the Greek Royal. American millionaire Mrs. Leeds married prince Christopher of Greece, son of King George I and father (through his second marriage to Francoise d' Orleans) of prince Micahel of Greece. Although, initially, prince Christopher resigned his rights to the throne, it was his brother, King Constantine I, who reinstated him and Mrs. Leeds was created HRH Princess Anastasia of Greece. However, she died soon and there was no issue.

Thus, the only case, of a female commoner marrying into the GRF that was elevated to princess and had issue, was that of Mme Manos. It should be remembered though that Mme Manos was married to a King and it would have been very embarrassing for the issue, to remain a commoner (besides the issue of creating a noble woman would be out of question since modern Greece never had and never recognized nobility).

*Insofar as male commoners marrying into the GRF we have the childless marriage of Admiral Ioannides to princess Marie.


On another note, it was stated above that the wife of the prince Paul (Pavlos) is not a princess in her own right and this is correct.
More precisely, her title is HRH The Princess Diadoch (Diadoch = Heir) and not Crown Princess Pavlos.

In a similar case, that is, when George II was king and Prince Paul the diadoch, he and his wife, Frederika of Hanover, were referred to, in the Press, history books, Court Circulars etc as His Royal Higness The Diadoch, Her Royal Highness The Princess Diadoch.

Practically, of course, since the monarchy is now defunct, she can be called anything her father-in-law has designated.
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  #197  
Old 12-30-2009, 07:46 AM
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You summed it up beautifully, that was exactly my point.
As to Marie-Chantal, there must be a press release from the time she married prince Paul, precising her title if any, mustn t there?

I should also add that another male commoner married into the Royal Family, besides Admiral Ioannides, was Richard Brandram who was married to princess Catherine.
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  #198  
Old 12-30-2009, 11:27 AM
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I should also add that another male commoner married into the Royal Family, besides Admiral Ioannides, was Richard Brandram who was married to princess Catherine.
Yes, yes, of course!!! I beg your pardon for my error.
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  #199  
Old 01-02-2010, 11:18 PM
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I fo not think she is a "royal highness" or can even be considered a crown princess since there no Greek crown since before her birth. The Greeks have sent 2 royal houses packing (Bavarian house of Wettelsbach was first)
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  #200  
Old 01-04-2010, 06:56 PM
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I think the situation of Prince Michael is very similar to the Princess Catherine, she had to give up her title of Princess of Greece when she married Richard Brandram,she was daughter of kings and Miguel resigned in 1965, if the daughters of Princes Michael are Princess of Greece, the son and grandchildren of Princess Katherina are princes of Greece
and this is not so,
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