Titles, Surname and Protocols for the Royal Family

[Vlaha Karatsokaros]

I remember that one of the Greek Government's arguments to the claim of Constantine was "the names of places can not be surname" Greece is a "place", but Glucksburg is other place, is in Germany. If we apply the above reasoning, Greece is not surname and Glubsburg no (in Greece)

You are correct! And this argument of the government was as flawed and insincere as King Constantine's (in paraphrase), "I have no surname, therefore I am of Greece which is not a surname"

It is all silly, becuase Constantine is king of nothing and he can call himself anything he wants. If he wants to go to Greece and the legitimate government there says, what is your last name, pick one. It could be Hanover, too. Nice name. Constantine Hanover. Would look good on a passport.

Exactly and everybody will be happy thereafter!

 

[BELTRANEJA]

I want to specify my previous message.

King Constantine has never filed a claim demanding surname. In 1994 a Royal Decree, deprived him of his property and his passport and his surname ... The government conditional on the return of his nationality to a number of requirements including taking a surname different "Greece". The Government of Greece made several arguments between these that the places are not surname in Greece, their members of the then Government claimed that the surname of the former royal family was Gluckburg ... but this is a mistake because Gluckburg is a place, ..

 

[branchg]

King Alexnader's to Aspasia Manos who, after her husband's death was elevated, by royal decree, to HRH Princess Aspasia and this was only done in order to prevent the late king's newly-born daughter from becoming a commoner which would be an embarrassment

Aspasia's marriage to the late King was formally recognized and she was granted the title and style of HRH Princess Alexander of Greece by royal decree, the same as all wives of the Greek princes of the blood, whether commoners or royal.

 

[Vlaha Karatsokaros]

By letters patent perhaps but not by decree, that is by law. A law had to be introduced upon the return of Constantine II (during his second reign) and based on this law (which in fact was made retroactive), he was then able to elevate Aspasia Manos to a suo jure princess.
All the other ladies (except Mrs. Leeds) were already suo jure princesses and, upon, their marriage, they were not elevated to suo jure Greek princesses, thence their title and style was deriving solely from that of their husband. Examples: Princess Nicholas of Greece (even though Helen was a princess in her own rights), Princess Andrew of Greece (even though Alice was a princess, minor but still a princess), Princess George of Greece (even though Marie was a Napoleon princess), Princess Christopher of Greece (even though Francoise was an Orleans princess).
I would love to hear comments on that.

 

[branchg]

The only question of Aspasia's status was whether Constantine would recognize the marriage as being valid. At the time, the house laws required princes of the blood to marry equally and with consent from The King.

Since Aspasia married a reigning King, she obviously had permission at the time. There was then a question of whether the marriage itself was legal in Greece. The courts eventually ruled it was a legal marriage and the King's decree then followed.

Technically, she was, albeit briefly, Queen Aspasia of the Hellenes. But she accepted this was impossible and was happy to be officially recognized as HRH Princess Alexander and their daughter declared legitimate as HRH Princess Alexandra.

 

[Vlaha Karatsokaros]

The only question of Aspasia's status was whether Constantine would recognize the marriage as being valid.

The issue came up at some point before it was known what type of wedding (civil or religious ceremony) had taken place, since it was kept secret. According to the book by Dr A Zaoussis, the wedding took place in an Athenian house, the Archimandrite of the Palace officiated and politician Mr Christos Zalokostas was the best man. In the Greek Orthodox rite, divorce can be granted but marriages do not and cannot get anulled if performed by a member of the clergy. The Orthodox scripta dictate, "Those that God united, no man shall split". Thus, no power on earth has authority to annull (ie invalidate) a properly conducted religious Orthodox ceremony.

At the time, the house laws required princes of the blood to marry equally and with consent from The King. Since Aspasia married a reigning King, she obviously had permission at the time.

It goes without saying!!! You are absolutely right here, but the house laws issue is a separate one and pertains only to dynastic matters, titles etc. The marriage, per se, was legal simply because in Greece the Church is a Branch of the State and the Clergy are civil servants.

There was then a question of whether the marriage itself was legal in Greece. The courts eventually ruled it was a legal marriage and the King's decree then followed.........
Technically, she was, albeit briefly, Queen Aspasia of the Hellenes......

In the end, the "legality" issue had nothing to do with the validity of the marriage or the house rules (which could easily be overcome by letters patent etc). The problem, I believe, was that the Greek Law did not permit the granting of titles of nobility to Greek citizens. Thus, a Greek citizen, albeit allowed to marry a prince [eg Greek commoner M Karella who married prince Michael] or even the king [eg Aspasia Manos], could not become a noble person or be granted titles etc.
It would be extremely interesting to see how the then scholars of Constitutional Law overcame the obstacle. I guess there were possible ways. For instance, arguing that the titles of the members of the royal family are not titles of nobility. Once, then, she became the spouse of the king, house rules could be applied at the discretion of the monarch.

 

[branchg]

The problem, I believe, was that the Greek Law did not permit the granting of titles of nobility to Greek citizens. Thus, a Greek citizen, albeit allowed to marry a prince [eg Greek commoner M Karella who married prince Michael] or even the king [eg Aspasia Manos], could not become a noble person or be granted titles etc.
It would be extremely interesting to see how the then scholars of Constitutional Law overcame the obstacle. I guess there were possible ways. For instance, arguing that the titles of the members of the royal family are not titles of nobility. Once, then, she became the spouse of the king, house rules could be applied at the discretion of the monarch.

The Constitution forbade members of the Greek royal house from marrying Greek nationals. Titles of noblility were forbidden, but that did not apply to royal styles held by members of the royal family. It simply meant there could not be a constitutional power reserved for a titled Peerage.

The Court of First Instance upheld the validity of the marriage on the grounds that the constitutional prohibition applied to members of the royal family, but not The King himself. That still left the problem of Aspasia's status (her daughter, Alexandra was recognized from birth as a Princess of Greece & Denmark).

At Queen Sophie's request, Constantine issued the decree recognizing the marriage formally and granting Aspasia her royal style and title.

 

[snowflower]

I ve found some very interesting informations yesterday concerning King Paul. I knew that while he was on his second exile ( 1923 to 1935) he was parted for some years from the rest of the family and lived in the USA, but I didn't knew that he worked there! He was employed to a factory for a while when he first arrived at the country , working at an administration position ( accountant I think). When he went there and asked for a job, his future employer told him that he would be happy to offer him a job , but it would be better if he worked incognito, keeping his HRH a secret from the rest and using a name and a last name. King Paul agreed and, in order to choose his surname he went really back in his geneology to The Dukes of Schlewig Holstein Sonderburg Beck, and he was employed as Mr Paul Beck and that's the name he used socially for most of the time he stayed in the USA. Why did he choose it? I guess because it was a family connection ( although quite dinstant), simple and american sounding. What do you think?

 

[BELTRANEJA]

I remember have read this in an interview of Queen Sofia and Prince Pavlo talked about it .

 

[Vlaha Karatsokaros]

I've read that also many times. I was of the impression, however, that he worked in England rather than the USA.

 

[stef]

titlesI think there are two types of titles,The titles granted by the King, have no legal value .....The titles granted by law , dependent on the law but they have state value.

 

[snowflower]

You are talking in general or about Greece? Because I don't think that Greece grants titles to citizens, only medals. I think the only hororific title that Greece grants is to some ex ambassandors but I am not even sure about it.

 

[Vlaha Karatsokaros]

Stef is talking in general and her/his statement is correct. Insofar as Greece is concerned, its current Constitution prohibits the granting of Greek titles to any Greek or foreign citizen. Medals and decorations for valor are a different issue altogether.

 

[Vlaha Karatsokaros]

The entire Royal family stays away from Greek political life and would never make any statements for or against any of the government officials.
Very wise of them. They never made any statements regarding political Greek life in the last 41 years.

They have no right anyway since they chose not to become Greek citizens. The very moment they became Hellenes, they would automatically have this privilege.

 

[Nikolopoulus]

He was born in Greece, he did not renounce his citizenship, his citizenship deleted by a law that denies that he was born in Greece.Was the law will of the King??????

 

[IRIS1983]

They have no right anyway since they chose not to become Greek citizens. The very moment they became Hellenes, they would automatically have this privilege.

if they have Greek citizenship, they would have no privileges, unlike, the Queen Ana Maria would have no title of Princess of Denmark.

 

[Odette]

They have no right anyway since they chose not to become Greek citizens. The very moment they became Hellenes, they would automatically have this privilege.

Nowdays, we gave the right to everyone to criticise or advise us.
The King has reigned in Greece and as such he has every right to express his opinions. Some may not want to hear what he has to say, however he still retains the right to speak his mind.

 

[IRIS1983]

hahahah!!!!!
You confuse me..
It is normal that a person was born in Greece is more close to the problems of his country.

 

[Lumutqueen]

They have no right anyway since they chose not to become Greek citizens. The very moment they became Hellenes, they would automatically have this privilege.

He has every right if he wishes to comment on the state of the government. He was once King.

if they have Greek citizenship, they would have no privileges, unlike, the Queen Ana Maria would have no title of Princess of Denmark.

If they were married in Greece, surely she had Greek citizenship.
King Constantine was born there, he must have citzenship.

 

[IRIS1983]

The Queen Anne Marie has not passport of Greece, the law of 1994 affect her.

 

[Lumutqueen]

The Queen Anne Marie has not passport of Greece, the law of 1994 affect her.

How do you know this?
If she married in Greece, she lived in Greece for a period of time, she married the Greek King, she must have citizenship.

 

[IRIS1983]

there is a group in facebook monarchical, serious, which was published this law translated.
I think one of the members of this group is at this forum, because this person has made reference to it.

 

[Lumutqueen]

Okay a facebook group doesn't prove anything, frankly I don't think anyone knows that she has or hasn't got a passport.

 

[IRIS1983]

You do not understand, I've told that person, published a Greek law of 1994 or 1993, translated into English, then other people commented that law and it eliminated the passport to all members of the Greek royal family, including Anne Marie and their children.I have read a interview in a mgazine of Spain, in where constantine speak about this law, and he said that it was validity in Greece

 

[Lumutqueen]

Okay. But she still must be a citizen of Greece, as I said before, she married the Ex- Greek King, she lived there, she married there. They have to both be citizens.

 

[GRspecialforces]

Okay. But she still must be a citizen of Greece, as I said before, she married the Ex- Greek King, she lived there, she married there. They have to both be citizens.

no she isn't and no one is from this family. the goverment told them to pick a surname if they want passports and citizenship and they didn't accept. some people must understand the difference between democratic countries and countries with royal houses(even if they are democratic too). we are all equal here and we must follow the same rules and laws. we all have surnames and titles are not allowed. constantine should respect this, if he loves greece.

greetings,
gregory

 

[IRIS1983]

Ok, must be Greek, I agree with you, that they eliminate the law that took away their passports

 

[BELTRANEJA]

no she isn't and no one is from this family. the goverment told them to pick a surname if they want passports and citizenship and they didn't accept.

I do not agree with you , Constantino has accepted this, in Hola! magazine interview, he said he respected the law, he has a Danish passport with surname accepted in Denmark and the European citizen. He respects the law .The Princess Irene has a Danish passport.
IRIS83 , you could put the law translated here.

 

[Lumutqueen]

no she isn't and no one is from this family.

But shouldn't they both at some point of had Greek Citizenship, they married there, they lived there.

 

[Kastalia]

^I'm sure that he had Greek citizenship.I mean,he was born in Athens at Psyhiko district and he was raised here in Athens.But as grspecialforces said when he was asked to chose a surname he refused instead he continued to use the title ''King''.That move was concidered to be an anti-Greek action and although he kept his role as honorary member of International Olympic Comittee and that he is the Co-President of Honour of the International Sailing Federation he was teased by the media who ironically called him ''degretsias'' (instead of De Grecia) and Kokos which is very underestimating.