Titles, Surname and Protocols for the Royal Family

[branchg]

Originally Posted by Emily

Does CP Pavlos become known as King of Greece after the death of his father? And will CP M-C then become known as Queen?

No, because Pavlos was never a reigning monarch, so he will remain HRH Crown Prince Pavlos during his lifetime. His son will be known simply as HRH Prince of Greece & Denmark.

Marie-Chantal is currently HRH Crown Princess Pavlos of Greece & Denmark. She was not granted the distinction of being a princess in her own right by Constantine. It is possible she will when Pavlos becomes the head of the House after his father's death.

[Aphrodite26]

Question regarding the 'passing of titles'. . .will all of MC and Pavlos children be considered 'crown prince/princesses'? Will THEIR children then also (MC's grandchildren)?? It must stop somewhere, after all, MANY of us can trace our royal lineages, myself included, yet not all are obviously entitled to THE title.

[iannis]

Originally Posted by Aphrodite26

Question regarding the 'passing of titles'. . .will all of MC and Pavlos children be considered 'crown prince/princesses'? Will THEIR children then also (MC's grandchildren)?? It must stop somewhere, after all, MANY of us can trace our royal lineages, myself included, yet not all are obviously entitled to THE title.

I suppose you're talking about Constantinos Alexios and his descendants after Pavlos passes away, since he is the second in the line of succession.
I think -and hope- that this is what is going to happen, but for his (Constantinos Alexios') children, not all of Pavlos and MC's children
And I am more than happy the politicians can not use the term "ex Crown Prince", as some of them keep on doing ironically and with disgust referring to Constantine

[Warren]

Originally Posted by Aphrodite26

Question regarding the 'passing of titles'. . .will all of MC and Pavlos children be considered 'crown prince/princesses'? Will THEIR children then also (MC's grandchildren)?? It must stop somewhere, after all, MANY of us can trace our royal lineages, myself included, yet not all are obviously entitled to THE title.

The usage of "Crown Prince" will end with Pavlos, just as the title "King of the Hellenes" will end with King Constantine. There will then be a problem in distinguishing the 'heir' from the other ranks of Princes and Princesses of Greece and Denmark. Many of the German Houses get round this by continuing to use the title 'Erbprinz' or 'Hereditary Prince'.

[kelly9480]

I would think they'd go to using HRH The Prince of Greece (and Denmark) for the head, HRH The Hereditary Prince of Greece (and Denmark), and HRH Prince/ss of Greece (and Denmark) for the rest of the clan, like Hannover does. Of course, the Hereditary Prince thing is a guess, but they don't have anything else to go by (unless they claim Duke of Sparta against Constantine's wished).

[Roxsteve]

Originally Posted by dakodas

Gee, I miss the days when a king was a king and a prince was a prince regardless of what the people thought of them. Louis XVI and Marie Antoinette weren't any less of a king and queen because people hated them. Before those things like revolutions and modern republics and democracies, men were kings because GOD wanted them to be. It was refreshing in its simplicity.

We are in another century. Times have changed. Kings and queens need to be concerned of their image because they "depend" on their people. It is not what it used to be. You are right, it was refreshing, but times are more complicated now.

[Bella]

Originally Posted by RubyPrincess168

Constantine is a King as long as he lives. He never abdicated or gave up his rights and the rights of his heirs. His son was born the Crown Prince and the woman he marries automatically becomes Crown Princess. Pavlos hasn't renounced anything either so they are entitled to their titles. Their children are entitled to the use of Prince or Princess becuase they are the children of a Prince and grandchildren to a King. If they choose not to use the title later in life that's their decision. Their children however shouldn't have titles. Whether or not they are still ruling over a country is irrelevant. I mean, Bush is still President whether I elected him or not!

Contantine will remain king until his death, however, Pavlos will never become king therefore will never hold the title "king". The royal titles of the deposed Greek RF are a courtesy. There is no meaning nor weight behind them as they no longer "rule" over anyone or any place. In most circles, Pavlos' children are not referred to as prince or princess. Again, any mention to titles is more a social consideration. I think as Pavlos's children age, they should be discouraged from referring to themselves as princes or princesses as it really makes them look . . . stupid. When a monarchy is toppled, that is the end to royal acknowledgment, which is the whole idea. The fact that they are blood linked to royalty doesn't automatically allow them the use of royal titles.

An American president/presidential election has nothing whatsoever to do with monarchy.

[RubyPrincess168]

Originally Posted by Bella

An American president/presidential election has nothing whatsoever to do with monarchy.

My point was that the opinions of the people don't always matter. Just because the Greek people decided to eliminate the monarchy doesn't mean Constantine stopped being a King. He just being The King of Greece.

[Bella]

Originally Posted by RubyPrincess168

My point was that the opinions of the people don't always matter. Just because the Greek people decided to eliminate the monarchy doesn't mean Constantine stopped being a King. He just being The King of Greece.

In this case, the opinions of the people most certainly did matter. Just as they did in Russia, France and other countries where monarchy has been abolished. Constantine is no longer the King of Greece or anywhere. So, yes, he has "stopped" being king. Kings are not voted into office like presidents. Most ppl in Greece did not want a monarchy. Hence, there is no longer one. Just because you don't vote for a president doesn't mean that president will not be president.

[Philippe Egalite']

Originally Posted by Australian

Can people now marry into the Greek royal family still keeping their careers? Is there any criteria when it comes to choosing a wife/husband? Say it's a movie star, would she have to quit her/his career? I know italys princess clotilde didnt quit acting, but is it the same for greece? They dont have to live according to what their country will think of them anymore isnt it??

The term "exiled" royal family is a misnomer and misleading in the case of the former Greek royal family . The royal family was self-exiled and now, even this is not true. They walk in and out of Greece as and when they please.

They were never exiled, but self-exiled. Strictly speaking, the term exile applies only when there is an ad personam or ad familiam Law prohibiting individual royals or royal families, politicians etc from entering their countries of origin. For example, such a law applied to the House of Savoia and only in recent years the law was uplifted and Vittorio Emmanuelle, the son of the late and last king Umberto, was allowed to enter Italy.
The king of Greece was deposed by plebiscite, but never exiled by any law.

[Philippe Egalite']

Originally Posted by Genevieve

Why would there be rules if they are exhiled?

Being exhiled means that the people of the country they were born to rule do not care for them and they have been forced out of that country. While most exhiled people and families always have loyal followings (and the Greek royal family certainly has many supporters within Greece as well as outside of it), in terms of governments who set rules and laws, the individuals and families don't mean anything.

Even with all the wealthy families who support the Greek RF, there is no obligation for the King and Queen's children to seek their permission to marry or for their spouses to give up careers. The support of the Greek RF is purely a social one rather than a legal or political obligation of any sort.

As far as the people of Greece are legally and politically concerned with their exhiled royal family, the various members can do whatever and marry whomever they want. Nikolaos could marry a stripper and it wouldn't matter too much, let alone if he married an actress who would most certainly not be obligated to give up her career. (For what anyway? There are no royal duties to perform so she would sit around the Hampstead home gossiping with Anne Marie?)

You are correct insofar as Greece, her Constitution and the Hellenes are concerned. They don't care and have no right to be involved in what is internal matters of a family, any family in Greece.
However, I believe that Australian was referring to internal rules, that is rules set forth by royal families or even former royal families as to titles, family orders of chivarly, obligations/restrictions of their members as to whom they marry or can marry, about divorce, and so on.
Remember that many historically important former royal families, such as the House of Orleans, still keep strict rules. For example, the current Comte de Paris, Henri, was temporarily disinherited by his his father, (also) Henri Comte de Paris, when he divorced Marie-Therese of Wurttemberg and remarried outside the Roman Catholic Church.
Indeed, many former royal families have kept Court and Rules for decades after getting deposed, and some still do.

The Greek royal dynasty, even though its members have a substantial pedigree, is not considered important or historic per se in that it only dates back to 1864.
Further, it would be financially difficult for former King Constantine to hold Court.

Insofar as internal (family, that is) rules are concerned, it is presumed that there aren't any. I say that because, if the rules that applied during the constitutional monarchy were still in effect, the only relevant member of the family, the Heir to the throne, would have never been allowed to marry a non-royal and, if he did, the marriage would have been declared morganatic. With respect to Mrs. Marie-Chantal Miller, she remains so as long as the old rules apply, unless the former king Constantine, by letters patent, elevates her to princess. To the best of my knowledge this has not taken place or never been publicized by former king Constantine.

[Philippe Egalite']

Originally Posted by chanel

The King and Queen get courtseyed to quite often, so yes they do still get courteyed too. As for the minor members of the family, i am sure they do, but, not often as much because they are not reighning. However they are STILL all royals.

Former king Constantine and former queen Anne-Marie are not reigning in any country and if you say so, you are insulting Greece, a sovereign country member of the European Union.
What is true is that they did reign and because of that (their former capacity that is) they may be addressed or referred to as king Constantine/queen Anne-Marie or former king/queen of Greece (but never as king/queen of Greece] to the same extent that we refer to Mr Clinton or Mr Bush Sr as president Clinton and president Bush. The same precedent, strictly out of courtesy, applies to senators, congressmen, mabassadors, professors etc etc

[Philippe Egalite']

Originally Posted by ReinaMissy

They ARE still royal regardless, largely because of their lineage. Konstaninos' children are descended only from royalty.

Thus, they are STILL royal. The fact that they do not reign is immaterial.

As a historian and, even though a republican myself, I must agree with you that Constantine and Anne-Marie are royal by birthright - they were born prince/princess and they both reigned at some point. Thus, they are still king and queen (but not of Greece - they may be addressed as former king/queen of Greece though), albeit in a constitutionally non-substantive form. The of Greece may, therefore, be attached only if their title is preceded by former or formerly. However, if and when Constantine and Anne-Marie apply for naturalization as Greek citizens, even the courtesy titles they enjoy now will have to be effaced as per the command of the Hellenic Constitution and they will be addressed solely as Mr. and Mrs. de Grecia.

With respect to Denmark:
1) The then HRH Princess Anne-Marie of Denmark, ceased to be a princess til Danmark on the day of her marriage to a reigning foreign dynast as per the decision of her late father king Frederick. Specifically, the late king decided that she would lose her rights to the throne, and in Denmark, those who have no rights to the throne get automatically deprived of their rank and title.
2) King Constantine was born (1940) a prince til Danmark by virtue of the fact that he was(is) a direct line, agnatic descendant of king Christian IX. However, by the 1953 Succession Act of Denmark, which was incorporated to the Constitution, rights of succession to the Danish Throne were restricted to descendants of King Christian X and queen Alexandrine (grand parents of Anne-Marie). Thus, several princes/princesses til Danmark lost their right of succession. This created a whole new class of people for whom the courtesy and non-substantive title af Danmark was accorded ad personam. Thus, king Constantine is and shall remain for life a prince af Danmark. By definition, however, rank and title of prince or princess af Danmark, a non-substantive title, does not create personal rights. For example, princess Alexandra af Danmark lost the rank and title the moment she got married for they were not personal rights to start with.
Thus, the af Danmark title would not, should not and could not be inheritable and, in view of the fact, that all of king Constantine's children were born after 1953, they are not princes/princesses either til Danmark or af Danmark.

[Philippe Egalite']

Originally Posted by Australian

ok thank you for your reply, but i wonder, do they still get curtsy'd / bowed to?

One needs to understand here that there are two, quite distinct, sets of protocol. One, as entailed by the Almanac of Gotha and other authorities on royalty and nobility, which prevails within and is observed by Courts or in the mutual relations between royals, reigning or former. The other, is protocol determined by foreign ministries and applies to official state functions etc.
So, when king Constantine and queen Anne-Marie attend, say, a royal wedding, princes, princesses and courtiers are required to curtsy to them but, outside this setting, curtsying to representatives of defunct monarchies like that of Greece is technically incorrect and diplomatically inappropriate, albeit still a personal choice. For example, if the foreign secretary of country X curtsied to, say, queen Anne-Marie it would be incorrect, but if a salesperson at Bloomingdale's dropped to her knees for her, that's her/his choice. He/she doesn't have to, but it is her/his call and prerogative.

Beyond curtsying, which is getting obsolete anyway, there is also bowing as a gesture. This is still widely in effect and people bow to others out of respect to the office they hold, and not to the person. For example, one might bow to, say, Mr. Bush, even if he weren't her/his favorite president, out of respect to the office of The President of the United States of America. And, equally, one bows to presidents of all sovereign countries and reigning constitutional monarchs out of respect to their office.

To conclude: One may still bow to king Constantine or queen Anne-Marie as long as she/he understands that 1) she/he is not required to do so, and 2) that this would be a gesture only toward the person and not to an office for they don't represent anything anymore.

[lucien]

Oh but dear Philippo,people do know they don't have to curtsey anymore,and most certainly do TM,they do not even want people to do that.But bowing is a matter of courtesy,a rare commodity these days in certain circles.

People will bow out of respect,for the person,as well as what they represent and no Law can prevent that,may it not be officially so in Greece.

In your reply to Chanel you state;"Referring to them as King and Queen of Greece is an insult to Greece,a sovereign member state of the EU",yet,that very same sovereign member state feels free to insult ad nauseam hiding behind the Hellenic Confusion,(stretched to the max by the Gov. if it suits them,and narrowed by the same if that suits them regarding the RF) and it takes the very institutions of the EU,and it's courts,to point that out to them,and not just on the matter of the Royal Family as you may well know but maybe slipped your mind.

Your country is so easily "insulted" Philippo as no-one intends too,long toes,that it makes quite a spectacle of itself at times reacting,I'm sorry to say,in the view of other member states,bombastic even,and run as ad hoc as Olympic Airways and often with the same arrogant yet shabby service.A pitty,as I love Greece and your country folks,out of the tourist traps that is,(like everywhere else) and have visited Greece for a great many years and always with pleasure.

oh,and concerning "former",here's for you:
Ç ÅëëçíéêÞ ÂáóéëéêÞ ÏéêïãÝíåéá - ÊåíôñéêÞ Óåëßäá

The Greek Royal Family - Home Page

And the titles,they are applied under the House Laws,and no state has a say in that,nor will,it would be mingling in the personal sphere's of a Greek family,and you don't do that as you say....but telling a greek he isn't greek sits well if convenient...

And as you implied that the Monarchy in Greece was of no importance as it was only founded in the mid/late 19th century,I take it all these years have been scrapped out of the history books?How does one go about skipping over a hundred years of a country's history one wonders?By fraud if nothing else my dear?How USSR.

[Philippe Egalite']

Originally Posted by lucien

Oh but dear Philippo,people do know they don't have to curtsey anymore,and most certainly do TM,they do not even want people to do that.But bowing is a matter of courtesy,a rare commodity these days in certain circles.

I appreciate familiarity but Philipp[o] is grammatically incorrect - it should be Philippe, Φίλιππε [as you know, in Greek, nouns are declined peculiarly].
I agree that bowing is a matter of courtesy. I personally do so when acknowledging people, regardless of their education or socioeconomic background for a) it is polite and b) it offers a negotiatory advantage [noblesse oblige].

Originally Posted by lucien

People will bow out of respect,for the person,as well as what they represent and no Law can prevent that,may it not be officially so in Greece.

Absolutely, individuals are free to choose to even become carpets for others to walk on [Greek expression, remnant from the Ottoman rule - re'ponse paye'e].

Originally Posted by lucien

In your reply to Chanel you state;"Referring to them as King and Queen of Greece is an insult to Greece,a sovereign member state of the EU",yet,that very same sovereign member state feels free to insult ad nauseam hiding behind the Hellenic Confusion,(stretched to the max by the Gov. if it suits them,and narrowed by the same if that suits them regarding the RF) and it takes the very institutions of the EU,and it's courts,to point that out to them,and not just on the matter of the Royal Family as you may well know but maybe slipped your mind.

1. As per the decision of the European Court, the supreme judicial authority in Europe, the issue of the royal estate is closed.
2. Insofar as the European Union and, by International Law, the World are concerned, the current nationality of the former king of Greece is Danish and his surname is de Grecia, as per his passport issued following his application [out of his free will] to the Danish Government. He is most welcome, any day and any time, to apply for Greek citizenship [and passport, ipso facto], in which case, based on international precedent, his name shall be transliterated [not translated] to the Greek language and he will become Κύριος Κωνστανίνος Ντε Γκρέτσια [Monsieur Constantine De Grecia] and his consort Kυρία Αννα-Μαρία Ντε Γκρέτσια [Madame Anne-Marie De Grecia].

Originally Posted by lucien

Your country is so easily "insulted" Philippo as no-one intends too,long toes,that it makes quite a spectacle of itself at times reacting,I'm sorry to say,in the view of other member states,bombastic even,and run as ad hoc as Olympic Airways and often with the same arrogant yet shabby service.A pitty,as I love Greece and your country folks,out of the tourist traps that is,(like everywhere else) and have visited Greece for a great many years and always with pleasure.

I agree about Olympic Airlines, which during the Onassis ownership was an exquisite air carrier. It needs to be sold or rebuilt from scratch, strictly as a private airline and in accordance with EU directives. I can't help, though, but think that many other European Airlines including KLM sell coach class configuration and coach class seat pitch as first class seats and provide tasteless meals with freezing cold breads for breakfast [personal experience].
There are many tourist traps and Greece is currently focusing on improving the standards of the services provided everywhere in the Tourism and Hospitality Sector of the Economy. I can't help, nonetheless, but remind myself that I have had to deal with small animals in famous and celebrated hotels in downtown Paris and Amsterdam. I remember the hilarious scene, when I walked into our suite in the most historic hotel in Amsterdam and found a very junior member of my family playing with and talking to a charming little mouse.

Originally Posted by lucien

oh,and concerning "former",here's for you:
Ç ÅëëçíéêÞ ÂáóéëéêÞ ÏéêïãÝíåéá - ÊåíôñéêÞ Óåëßäá

The Greek Royal Family - Home Page

I am unable to fathom your point here.