Titles, Surname and Protocols for the Royal Family

[branchg]

Originally Posted by kelly9480

He has a right to fight for the retention of his family's private property, and Greece was wrong in taking them from him. The Greek taxpayers wouldn't have had to give him any money had the government handed the run-down property back to him, but the Greek government hasn't proven itself reasonable when it comes to their former king.

There is no question that both Mon Repos and Tatoi were purchased from the royal family's private money during the reign of the monarchy over the years, however, some of the land and properties were donated by the State as well. Constantine was very greedy in his demands, not to mention the fact that he wanted to be able to return to Greece and live on his former estates. This was unacceptable to the Greek government, which is their perogative.

Constantine received over $30 million in compensation from the Greek government in the end, which is fair, although he claims he donated it to charity, which is highly unlikely.

[oxynia]

Much of the property that Constantine was claiming a right to was not personal property at all. Upon installation of the royal family in Greece (back in the mid-1800s...this is a modern invention, not a tradition from centuries ago!), property was granted as official royal residences, etc. When Greece became a republic, the property reverted to the possession of the state. Constantine sued the government for much more than the international courts ruled was his to claim, so his greed was very apparent and not just to the Greeks.

As for his claims to love Greece and to wish to live here as a private citizen, he must remember that this was offered to him when the republic was established and he refused it! He refused to pledge allegiance to the republic and to take a surname, which were required in order for him to be recognized as no threat to the new republic and to receive a proper passport. He refused to declare a surname, insisting instead that he be regarded officially as "king of the Hellenes" and refused to declare his support and allegiance to the new Greece. Therefore, he was kicked out. His exile is entirely of his own doing, as he had been given options to remain in the country he claims to love so well. Fact is, he loves his "position" more and his arrogance supercedes any affection he has for Greece or its people.

As a Greek citizen, I can tell you that nothing would ever come between me and my citizenship here. But Constantine has other values and priorities that he simply won't recognize publicly. He prefers to play the role of victim instead and it just makes him all the more pathetic.

[Lourdes]

I have a solution for Constantine....Move to Greece and meet with Greek parliment to pledge his solidarity to Greece. Become a private citizen of Greece. Run for public office in Greece, win and live their comfortably. Other former monarchs have done this and been successful.

[Incas]

Not likely. That will make him face exactly how much or little the Greek actually care for him. Somehow, I don't think he can bear the latter reaction.

[Lady Marmalade]

Yes, but there were issues from the very beginning when the Greeks chose the Danish prince to be their King George I...

It seemed like an uncomfortable and unstable relationship from the start with that throne.

But, they perservered for as long as they could.

I like MC and Pavlos...and Alexia....

[fandesacs2003]

And a last word. For me it is normal for her to be called "royal highness" it's a courtesy title without any rights. Caroline of Monaco, who married the head of the House of Hannover, became a Royal Highness, despite that Hannover it's not a kingdom since one century, but EA is still a Royal highness, and he will still continue to be. In the same way MC could have this title.

But in the other hand, EA & Caroline are PRINCES but not Crownprinces, so why Pavlos & MC are CROWNprinces? for this I do not agree, as legally & Constitutionnally, Greece is not a Kingdom anymore!!

[Warren]

Originally Posted by fandesacs2003

But in the other hand, EA & Caroline are PRINCES but not Crownprinces, so why Pavlos & MC are CROWNprinces? for this I do not agree, as legally & Constitutionnally, Greece is not a Kingdom anymore!!

You've answered your own question. Legally and constitutionally Pavlos and Marie Chantal are not Crown Prince and Crown Princess of Greece. However, these are titles and constitutional legalities are not relevant. Pavlos was born a Crown Prince and retains the title to this day. Similarly, Royal Highness is a style and a courtesy. Within a certain social caste these things are relevant and important, to many other people they are not. Don't worry about it. :)

[fandesacs2003]

Originally Posted by Warren

You've answered your own question. Legally and constitutionally Pavlos and Marie Chantal are not Crown Prince and Crown Princess of Greece. However, these are titles and constitutional legalities are not relevant. Pavlos was born a Crown Prince and retains the title to this day. Similarly, Royal Highness is a style and a courtesy. Within a certain social caste these things are relevant and important, to many other people they are not. Don't worry about it. :)

Thanks for clarifying. I've cought the difference between Pavlos and EA. It's like be a President. Once you have been a President you keep the title for your entire life. EA was never a CP, Pavlos yes!
I do not worry, I also believe that courtesy is important, and if I meet MC i'll call her "Royal highness", why not?
Once I've met Queen Sophia, she is wonderfull and lovely, I've even tried to make a short reverence!!! I did not learn to do it, but I tried, I respect her and her title.

[LauraMCS]

Originally Posted by fandesacs2003

And a last word. For me it is normal for her to be called "royal highness" it's a courtesy title without any rights. Caroline of Monaco, who married the head of the House of Hannover, became a Royal Highness, despite that Hannover it's not a kingdom since one century, but EA is still a Royal highness, and he will still continue to be. In the same way MC could have this title.

EA's HRH style is still valid because the Hanovers are also Princes of Great Britain and Northern Ireland.

[Idriel]

Originally Posted by LauraMCS

EA's HRH style is still valid because the Hanovers are also Princes of Great Britain and Northern Ireland.

cough***there are not***cough.

1. The HRH style is reserved to:

• the children of a sovereign
• the children of sons of a sovereign (that is, grandchildren in the male line of a sovereign)
• the eldest living son of the eldest son of the Prince of Wales (alt.talk.royalty)

So unless lilibeth have a 'little' secret (:p), Ernst is not more of a RH than Pavlos.

2. Actually even their Prince of Great Britain and Northern England title has no legal basis. Granted, Ernst is direct descendant to Queen Victoria through male line and is on the list of the British succession. But this title was auto-awarded by one of his ancestor, who, when the the monarchy was abolished, proclaimed that his family will be know as Princes of the UK bla bla bla...
The thing is Kings of Hanover are not Kings of England and they have no right to grant themselves British titles.
It's about as legal as if E II declared tomorrow that she shall be HIH princess Elizabeth of Japan, because she likes the sound of it.

[branchg]

From a legal standpoint, Ernst-August is no longer a Royal Highness and Prince of the UK because the Titles Deprivation Act removed his family from the peerage and stripped their British titles, honors and royal rank for supporting Germany during World War I.

However, because Ernst's father won a lawsuit in the UK under the Sophia Naturalization Act in the 60's, the family's British citizenship was restored as the lineal descendants of the Electress Sophia. At that time, he issued a royal decree stating all members of the family would continue to be styled HRH and Prince/Princess of Great Britain and Ireland.

The Queen did not object (which she most certainly could have as the Sovereign) and they have continued to seek her permission to marry under the Royal Marriages Act. As the direct descendants of George III, it seems HM is willing to allow the Hanovers to retain their historical styles, but they hold no rank or title in the UK.

[branchg]

Originally Posted by Idriel

Ernst is not more of a RH than Pavlos.

Not true. The Hanovers are Royal Highnesses by assent from the Queen, although they hold no British honours officially. The Greek Royal House is part of the Danish Royal Family as well, but are not permitted to be Royal Highnesses under their rules (with the exception of Anne-Marie, who remains HRH Princess of Denmark as the daughter and sister of Danish Sovereigns).

[Roxsteve]

Originally Posted by dakodas

Gee, I miss the days when a king was a king and a prince was a prince regardless of what the people thought of them. Louis XVI and Marie Antoinette weren't any less of a king and queen because people hated them. Before those things like revolutions and modern republics and democracies, men were kings because GOD wanted them to be. It was refreshing in its simplicity.

Well, now the "princes" and "princesses" are marrying people who are not royal and, therefore, there is more of a chance for people to question "monarchies." Kings and queens were well respected. Today, you have a Mette-Marit, who is now the image of purity, when she was actually a party girl...far from a princess behavior...Then you have Letizia who was married before and no one ever heard about her ex again. Then you have Maxima whose father had something to do with Videla in Argentina, etc. These things cause people to talk...it is just human nature...

[kelly9480]

The Hannovers' HRH comes from Hannover (George V made them HH in the UK in 1914 and took it away 3 years later). The Queen has no right to assent or dissent to the HRH use, except when it's used in the UK. She chooses to let it slide, but, since Ernst is the head of a royal house (even though it's been deposed for going on a century), there's not really much of anything she could do about it anyways.

[Idriel]

Branchg, thank you for your much detailed previous post.

Originally Posted by branchg

Not true. The Hanovers are Royal Highnesses by assent from the Queen, although they hold no British honours officially.

I don't understand how this is possible. What do you mean 'by assent from the Queen'?

The Hannovers' HRH comes from Hannover (George V made them HH in the UK in 1914 and took it away 3 years later). The Queen has no right to assent or dissent to the HRH use, except when it's used in the UK. She chooses to let it slide, but, since Ernst is the head of a royal house (even though it's been deposed for going on a century), there's not really much of anything she could do about it anyways.

The very point. Hanover has not been a monarchy for over a century now, and titles and styles are illegal in Germany. Legally, Ernst (just like pavlos BTW), holds no titles or styles. Some people object that he does have a real title as he is a British Prince (not legal basis to this claim, but as Branchg explained, the Queen did not object). As for the RH, he is a RH neither in Germany (not legal) nor in the UK (not a child-grandson of the Queen).

[kelly9480]

German law doesn't impact the house rules of the former reigning families. Under the Hannover house law, EA is HRH. Whether you hold the house rules to be valid in a republic is a personal opinion, but German law doesn't delve into house rules (except in cases of inheritance), probably because it's a can of worms that the government feels should stay on the shelf.

[branchg]

Originally Posted by kelly9480

German law doesn't impact the house rules of the former reigning families. Under the Hannover house law, EA is HRH. Whether you hold the house rules to be valid in a republic is a personal opinion, but German law doesn't delve into house rules (except in cases of inheritance), probably because it's a can of worms that the government feels should stay on the shelf.

Yes and no. The German Federal Republic specifically forbids any titles of nobility, except as part of your name (Ernst-August, Prince von Hannover), and there is no compelling reason to care about the various House Rules. All of the German royals are citizens of Germany and their status is officially the same as any other citizen. Their former styles and titles are a courtesy of social standing.

[kelly9480]

Originally Posted by branchg

Their former styles and titles are a courtesy of social standing.

Which is why there's a compelling reason to care about the House Rules. And it's the House Rules that make EA call himself (and other royals call him) HRH.

[Emily]

Does CP Pavlos become known as King of Greece after the death of his father? And will CP M-C then become known as Queen?