Titles, Surname and Protocols for the Royal Family

[Empress]

So, I've never understood exactly why Greek princes and princesses are entitled to the title of Prince(ss) of Denmark. Call me silly, and I am sure I read it somewhere once, but I really can't remember. Has it something to do with a previous King coming from Denmark? And would that style not eventually die out?

[greek101]

Your right Empress, King George I was born Prince Wilhelm of Denmark and was created King of Greece by the great powers in the late 1800's and he was able to keep the title of Prince of Denmark and as a result all of his descendants through the male lines have the title Prince/ss of Denmark as well of that of Greece

[Philippe Egalite']

Originally Posted by Empress

So, I've never understood exactly why Greek princes and princesses are entitled to the title of Prince(ss) of Denmark. Call me silly, and I am sure I read it somewhere once, but I really can't remember. Has it something to do with a previous King coming from Denmark? And would that style not eventually die out?

To answer the second question. The style has already died out following the 1953 Succession Act enacted during the reign of King Frederick IX, queen Anne-Marie's father. According to this Act, only descendants of Christian X and Queen Alexandrine can ascend to the Throne. Royals outside this line who had been born earlier as princes of Denmark, like King Constantine, prince Michael of Greece and prince Peter of Greece lost completely any rights to the Throne but were allowed to retain the courtesy (ie constitutionally meaningless) title of prince, and be known as princes af Danmark. In essence, these personages are no more princes of Denmark in a legal capacity, in their own rights. Given the aforementioned as well as the fact that queen Anne-Marie also lost her rights to the Danish Throne upon marrying a reigning foreign dynast, the children of king Constantine and queen Anne-Marie were not born, and are not, princes/princesses of Denmark.

[serenissima]

It seems as though both the Danish Crown and the Danish government accept the children of King Constantine and Queen Anne-Marie as the members of the Danish royal house. However, none including Queen Anne-Marie who is a younger sister of the Queen of Denmark are qualified to be listed in the line of succession to the throne of Denmark. This is because the members of the Greek royal family are not Lutheran but Greek Orthodox. So, I hear from people who know the Greek royals.

[Philippe Egalite']

Originally Posted by serenissima

It seems as though both the Danish Crown and the Danish government accept the children of King Constantine and Queen Anne-Marie as the members of the Danish royal house. However, none including Queen Anne-Marie who is a younger sister of the Queen of Denmark are qualified to be listed in the line of succession to the throne of Denmark. This is because the members of the Greek royal family are not Lutheran but Greek Orthodox. So, I hear from people who know the Greek royals.

As you may see for yourself, by visiting the official site of the Royal House of Denmark, neither queen Anne-Marie nor king Constantine are included as members of the Royal House (let alone their children). The site quotes, however, that queen Anne-Marie is a member of the extended Royal Family.
The Danish Government is not concerned with personages that have no rights to the Throne, in other words, king Constantine is irrelevant to Danish Law. However, as a descendent of king Christian IX and because of this fact alone (that was discussed in the Danish Parliament a few years back) king Constantine was allowed to apply for Danish citizenship and obtain a passport as Constantine de Grecia. It is true that to become king/queen of the Denmark a prince/princess must be of the Lutheran denomination but the Constitution does not prohibit someone from becoming king/queen once qualified and after adopting Lutheranism. Thus, up until 1953, when the Succession Act was changed, king Constantine, for instance, could theoretically become king of Denmark by switching from Orthodoxy to Lutheranism. So, the denomination per se is not an issue.

[serenissima]

Apparently, all the children of King Constantine & Queen Anne-Marie use the titles of princes/princesses of Greece and Denmark according to people who know them.

[morhange]

From Wikipedia: Before 1953, various descendants of King Christian IX had succession rights in Denmark. The new Act of Succession terminated those rights but left the individuals involved in possession of their titles. This created a class of people with royal titles but no rights to the throne. As a distinction, those entitled to inherit the throne are called "Prins til Danmark" (Prince to Denmark, although this distinction is not made in English) while those without succession rights are referred to as "Prins af Danmark" (Prince of Denmark).



So the Greeks, if one were to read about them in a Danish language text, would be, for example, Kronprins Pavlos af Grækenland, Prins af Danmark, while Christian is Prins Christian til Danmark

[Philippe Egalite']

Originally Posted by serenissima

Apparently, all the children of King Constantine & Queen Anne-Marie use the titles of princes/princesses of Greece and Denmark according to people who know them.

What various personages want or would want to be known as and what legitimacy and legality determine are two distinct issues.

[Philippe Egalite']

Originally Posted by morhange

From Wikipedia: Before 1953, various descendants of King Christian IX had succession rights in Denmark. The new Act of Succession terminated those rights but left the individuals involved in possession of their titles. This created a class of people with royal titles but no rights to the throne. As a distinction, those entitled to inherit the throne are called "Prins til Danmark" (Prince to Denmark, although this distinction is not made in English) while those without succession rights are referred to as "Prins af Danmark" (Prince of Denmark).

I took the liberty to bold and italicize what is exactly the crux of the issue, i.e. personages who were born prior to 1953 and thus, when the Act of Succession was passed (in 1953), were in possession of title of Prins/esse til Danmark. As of 1953, such personages, i.e. the descendants of King Christian IX but who were not issue of King Christian X and Queen Alexandrine, as the then Diadoch Constantine of Greece, Princesses Sofia and Yriny of Greece and Princes Peter and Michael of Greece, ceased to be constitutional Princes/ses of Denmark (ie, til=to) and became automatically courtesy* Princes/ses of Denmark (ie, af=of).

To make the point crystal-clear, the til and af Danmark, as used in Denmark in conjunction with the prince/ss title, correspond to what in the English language are periphrastically referred to as prince/ss in his own right (a constitutional prince/ss - a dynast) and prince/ss by marriage/association (courtesy prince/ss - a non-dynast), respectively.

By definition, however, a holder of a courtesy title has no own dynastic right to transfer her/his title to one's issue. Said differently, the children of King Constantine were not born princes/ses til Danmark since, at their birth, both their father had ceased to be a Danish dynast and the 1953 Succession Act precluded that altogether. Lastly, I am not aware of princes/ses af Danmark born to princes/ses who were mere princes/ses af Danmark.

Therefore, unless HM The Queen of Denmark decides, through letters patent or some other Danish royal prerogative provided for by the Danish Constitution, to confer officially courtesy titles to them, the children of King Constantine are not princes/ses either til or af Danmark. Should there be a way for HM The Queen to do so, it would complicate matters for, in such case, the children of Princess Benedikte - who after all remains a princess til Danmark, could and would also have similar expectations, etc etc.

* Here the term courtesy prince is used (see unabridged Merriam-Webster) to imply presence of official right but absence of legal meaning/significance. For example, Prince Henrik af Danmark and Princess Mary af Danmark are not dynasts - they may not issue princes/ses in their own right.
By the way, a courtesy title is inferior to ad personam titles. For example, the Infanta Elena of Spain is the ad personam Duchess of Lugo. Her title is for her only and cannot be inherited, but (she) shall remain so for life, whether she divorces or remarries. On the other hand, Princess Alexandra of Denmark lost her courtesy title of princess the very moment she remarried. So a courtesy title, apart from legally meaningless may also be conditional.

[Principessa Cano]

I have an off topic question about the Greek children's births but wasn't sure where else to put it.

I had been under the impression that in order to ascend to a throne, a royal had to be born in the country it would rule. For example, one of the Dutch princesses born during the second world war was born in Canada but the Canadian government had the hospital room temporarily made Dutch soil so that, if the baby was a boy, he would still be able to claim the throne. So my question is, how can the children of Pavlos be heirs if none of them were born in Greece? I know this is a bit of a moot point considering they are in exile and will probably never rule but I am still curious.

[Warren]

I don't know what the former Greek constitution had to say on the matter, but since Greece is a republic the present constitution wouldn't cover royal succession. Not every monarchy insists its future monarch is born on home soil. For the heirs of former monarchies the term "de jure King [etc]" covers their position without them claiming to be "the King". In any case, Constantin remains the heir, after his father, to the Headship of the Royal House of Greece which is a slightly different issue.

[greek101]

Originally Posted by Principessa Cano

I have an off topic question about the Greek children's births but wasn't sure where else to put it.

I had been under the impression that in order to ascend to a throne, a royal had to be born in the country it would rule. For example, one of the Dutch princesses born during the second world war was born in Canada but the Canadian government had the hospital room temporarily made Dutch soil so that, if the baby was a boy, he would still be able to claim the throne. So my question is, how can the children of Pavlos be heirs if none of them were born in Greece? I know this is a bit of a moot point considering they are in exile and will probably never rule but I am still curious.

I think it depends on the succession laws of the different countries in question.

[Philippe Egalite']

This is an easy question to answer based on precedent.
Indeed, the old Greek Constitutions did not carry any limitations in this respect.
Moreover, princess Yriny who, from March 1964 until Summer of 1965 (date of birth of princess Alexia) was constitutionally the Diadoch (ie Heir to the Throne of Greece) had been born in South Africa where the Royal Family of Greece was residing in exile during the German Occupation.
At any rate, I am not sure whether the Constitution of any European monarchy requires(d) specifically that the heir be born on national soil. In certain situations, as in the case of Prince Alexander of Yugoslavia, special arrangements were made so that the heir be born on transiently national soil - but this was done for sentimental rather than legal/constitutional reasons.
King George VI declared temporarily the Claridge's Hotel as Yugoslav soil in order for the birth of King Peter and Queen Alexandra's first (and only) child to occur on Yugoslav soil.

[Viv]

Originally Posted by Empress

So, I've never understood exactly why Greek princes and princesses are entitled to the title of Prince(ss) of Denmark. Call me silly, and I am sure I read it somewhere once, but I really can't remember. Has it something to do with a previous King coming from Denmark? And would that style not eventually die out?

The of-Denmark style was first and foremost a security measure,
if you like, insisted upon by King Christian IX when Prince Vilhelm
was offered the Greek throne by the Great Powers in 1863.

King Christian was aware that taking on the Greek throne was
risky business, and in case Vilhelm/George I was ousted he would be
rendered stateless. Thus the -of Denmark style was included as a
legal technicality, which would enable the Danish monarch to provide
King George and his family with Danish passports. With prophetic
foresight I might add, as this provision has been activated several times
over the years!

As far as I know ex-king Constantine and his family are still holding
Danish diplomatic passports. Note the italics! It means that they
have a legally valid piece of paper providing them with a nominal
nationality. However they have no citizen rights as such, nor are they
in the line of succession to the Danish throne, nor are they members
of the Danish royal House. They are members of the extended RF only.

Viv

[Lilla]

Originally Posted by Odette

It is true than no one can run unless they are Greek citizens and the royal family carry Danish passports.

Yes, that would be very interesting to know?
This might be the answer to why the Greek Royal family has a special status in Denmark.

[Odette]

Originally Posted by Lilla

Yes, that would be very interesting to know?
This might be the answer to why the Greek Royal family has a special status in Denmark.

How so? You mean besides being relatives of the reigning royal family or there is something more to it??

[Lilla]

Yes the children of Queen Anne Marie and King Constantine are all princes or princesses of Denmark and they have danish passports.

And please don't ask me for sources on the latter statement. It is childhood knowledege. I have grown up with that - just like the knowledge that in Denmark Queen Anne Marie and King Konstantine are titled King and Queen not with the "ex" in front.

[Charlotte1]

Originally Posted by Lilla

Yes the children of Queen Anne Marie and King Constantine are all princes or princesses of Denmark and they have danish passports.

And please don't ask me for sources on the latter statement. It is childhood knowledege. I have grown up with that - just like the knowledge that in Denmark Queen Anne Marie and King Konstantine are titled King and Queen not with the "ex" in front.

Greek royals being princes/cesses of Greece and Denmark has nothing to do with Anne-Marie. When she married Constantine she renounced her place in line to the Danish throne, for herself and her future children. The 'Greece and Denmark' comes from Prince Vilhelm of Denmark who became King George I of Greece. The Greek throne being an unstable one he insisted that his descendents keep the 'princes of Denmark' in their title. And all have since, in 1953 with the changes to the succession in Denmark it became limited to the descendents of King Christian X so the Greek line no longer has succession rights. In Danish one is 'af Denmark' the other is 'til Denmark'. Can't remember which is the with succession rights.

The Greek royals now have Danish passports because the Greek government in the early 1990's took away their Greek ones, saying they need to have a surname. That's when Queen Margrethe gave them all Danish diplomatic passports.