Titles, Surname and Protocols for the Royal Family

[Warren]

He'll more than likely remain the same, just as Crown Prince Alexander of Yugoslavia (Serbia) did following the death of his father King Peter.

To keep threads largely on topic, further discussion of this subject should continue in the Will Crown Prince Pavlos be King thread.

[Philippe Egalite']

Originally Posted by Warren

Not meaning to sound flippant here, but I'd imagine that "Greece" (the people and the government) would have more important things to concern themselves with than the form of words that others may or may not use when referring to King Constantine.

What is and what is not important to a sovereign country, its government and its people, is up to them and no one else to decide.

[noldorlord]

Originally Posted by Philippe Egalite'

What is and what is not important to a sovereign country, its government and its people, is up to them and no one else to decide.

“No man is an island” and we must all abide by the ramifications of our decisions, and how they affects others.

You also seem to forget that it was three other countries that decided the fate of Greece back in 1864. it was also the line of kings that were put in place that helped to claim much of the land it now holds. Bring back the King and you might be able get Macedonian name back as well.

I being a Greek national myself, do sometimes feel that we (Greece) chucked out the baby with the bath water. A lot can be said for the Monarchy and its place in the world.

Originally Posted by oxynia

As a Greek citizen, I can tell you that nothing would ever come between me and my citizenship here.

Your citizenship is it something you got from birth? Constantine was born a Greek Prince and then became it’s king. Would you give him any less rights-even if he no longer rules?

[wartenberg7]

Originally Posted by Philippe Egalite'

Dear Bella, I happen to share completely your opinion. However, I have a trait that, whenever I develop an unfavorable opinion about someone, as with with Mrs Marie-Chantal Miller de Grecia, I try twice as hard to be objective so as to ensure that I am not victimizing anyone.

Mrs. Marie Chantal Miller de Grecia?? Don´t know anyone with this name...
Do you mean Her Royal Highness Crown Princess Pavlos of Greece?

[Philippe Egalite']

Originally Posted by wartenberg7

Mrs. Marie Chantal Miller de Grecia?? Don´t know anyone with this name...

Well, now you do. And if you are seriously interested to know the perspective of History (Greek historic precedent since 1864 and the Hellenic Constitution of 1953 that was in effect until 1973 when the Monarchy was abolished) and the Law (American, British or European, because Mrs Miller de Grecia is most likely a citizen of one of these countries or Union of Countries), you are most welcome to start a thread on the issue, and I shall most respectfully give you full and substantiated (to the iota) account on the matter.

[wartenberg7]

Originally Posted by Philippe Egalite'

Well, now you do. And if you are seriously interested to know the perspective of History (Greek historic precedent since 1864 and the Hellenic Constitution of 1953 that was in effect until 1973 when the Monarchy was abolished) and the Law (American, British or European, because Mrs Miller de Grecia is most likely a citizen of one of these countries or Union of Countries), you are most welcome to start a thread on the issue, and I shall most respectfully give you full and substantiated (to the iota) account on the matter.

Well, when she got married to CP Pavlos back in 1995, King Constantine II
published that his daughter in law was to be known as I said before (HRH CPss Pavlos of Greece. I think, she would be "CPss Marie Chantal of Greece" if there was still a monarchy in Greece....?)). Marie Chantal was also called that way in the official bulletins from the Royal House after she gave birth to her children. So King Constantines will still counts more than your own personal opinion about titles or the lack of it and the Crown Princess is a princess by marriage if you like it or not.

[Bella]

I'm sorry but crown princess to what? There is no longer a monarchy in Greece which means many of these "royal" titles are pure courtesy titles. Just like in France and Russia and other places where the monarchy has been abolished. Constantine, his wife and their older children are "allowed" to use their titles as they had them before they were overthrown. But "technically" the younger children and any children of the three sons are not really "princes or princesses" as they were born when there was no longer a monarchy. Again, these titles are mere courtesies and everyone, in or outside of royal cirlces, knows this.

[Philippe Egalite']

Originally Posted by wartenberg7

I think, she would be "CPss Marie Chantal of Greece" if there was still a monarchy in Greece....?)). So King Constantines will still counts more than your own personal opinion about titles or the lack of it and the Crown Princess is a princess by marriage if you like it or not.

What I or anyone thinks or likes is irrelevant on this type of issues.
Obviously, you refuse my offer to give you an objective and elaborate account in a separate thread, which is self-explanatory.

Heads of defunct royal houses tend to take liberties since there is no associated cost. This does not make their actions right [after all, the era of the Holy Roman Empire is gone irreversibly]. Best example is that of Vittorio Emmanuelle of Savoia, who married unequally (to say the least), beat his cousin Amedeo Duke of Aosta during a royal wedding celebration in Spain (causing Juan Carlos the embarrassment of his life), and was granting royal orders to obscure people in exchange of grace-and-favor, to the extent that his eldest sister, princess Maria Gabriella, was forced to "drop" him and recognize Amedeo of Aosta as the new Head of the House of Savoia-Aosta.

By the way, the only Royal House of a defunct monarchy where use of the title Crown Prince is legitimate is that of Serbia (formerly Yugoslavia). The Serbian Parliament and Government decreed that the Karadjordje family was a nation-building dynasty. Because of that, all palaces were returned to the family, a certain role (albeit not constitutionally backed) exists for the RF in Serbian affairs, the crown appears on the national flag, CP Alexander often represents Serbia abroad etc. Thus, in abidance by the will of the Serbian people, diplomatic protocol dictates that he be recognized, addressed, and referred to, as HRH Crown Prince Alexander of Serbia. Such recognition may soon extend to the Petrovic-Njegos royal family of Montenegro, because the Petrovic were the Bishops of Montenegro for centuries and also a nation-building dynasty.

[Hanna Regina]

I read somewhere that the whole family has Danish diplomatic passports. What names are stated there? And what would their legal names have been if they had travelled with greek passports?
Convenient having a reigning Queen as your sister-in-law..
I know that the former German titles are used as legal surnames now, including both the old title and the land. ie Georg Friedrich Prinz von Preussen or Elisabeth Herzogin in Bayern.
Would Greek citizens (those opposed to the monarchy) accept the form of "de Grecia" for the ex-king? Title, or no title, the name itself still means "of Greece"

[sinulord]

You know it always makes me wonder and baffles me to this very day. The Russians, Romanians, Spaniards, Danes, Norwegians, Swedes, and even the great British people hardly kick up a fuss regarding the foreign origins of their royal (or former as in the case of Russia & Romania) families. The Greeks seem to be so over-sensitive, when it comes to issues against their former royal family, no matter how petty the issues may be. Give them a break man.... chill (as the Americans say).

[iannis]

Originally Posted by Hanna Regina

I read somewhere that the whole family has Danish diplomatic passports. What names are stated there? And what would their legal names have been if they had travelled with greek passports?
Convenient having a reigning Queen as your sister-in-law..
I know that the former German titles are used as legal surnames now, including both the old title and the land. ie Georg Friedrich Prinz von Preussen or Elisabeth Herzogin in Bayern.
Would Greek citizens (those opposed to the monarchy) accept the form of "de Grecia" for the ex-king? Title, or no title, the name itself still means "of Greece"

The GRF travel to Greece and abroad with their Danish or Spanish family passports, as European citizens, and this gave them the opportunity to be able to come back to Greece and visit more often; in fact it's in their Spanish ones were they're referred to as "de Grecia" (of Greece)
King Constantine and Queen Anne Marie did in fact own Greek passports that named them "Ex King and Queen of Greece" issued by the conservative Mistotakis government of 1990-1993; these however expired and none of the following three "socialist" PASOK governments were eager to renew them.
Fortunately they don't need them anymore!

[Splodger]

It is possible for a country to recognise a forigner by what ever title they feel is apropriate. For example in Monaco - the former Serene Highness Princess Caroline is officialy known, styled and addressed as Her Royal Highness Princess Ernst of Hanover because the Monasque government (obviously by Prince Rainier) chose to formally recognise her husband by his germanic noble title even though his own country does not formally recognise it. The Greek Royals are recognised with the dignity of King and Queen in Denmark by the grace and insistance of the danish Queen. In the UK, the government would refer out of diplomatic interest to them as Ex-King, however the British Royal family extend to them the full dignity of King. etc etc.

[Princess Robijn]

Wouldn't Princess Caroline be adressed as HRH The Princess of Hanover? Instead of HRH Princess Ernst of Hanover?

[Splodger]

Yeah sorry... your right Robijn

[Philippe Egalite']

Originally Posted by Splodger

It is possible for a country to recognise a forigner by what ever title they feel is apropriate. For example in Monaco - the former Serene Highness Princess Caroline is officialy known, styled and addressed as Her Royal Highness Princess Ernst of Hanover because the Monasque government (obviously by Prince Rainier) chose to formally recognise her husband by his germanic noble title even though his own country does not formally recognise it. The Greek Royals are recognised with the dignity of King and Queen in Denmark by the grace and insistance of the danish Queen. In the UK, the government would refer out of diplomatic interest to them as Ex-King, however the British Royal family extend to them the full dignity of King. etc etc.

This is true, in general. In Europe, of course, all members of the European Union have made adjustments to accommodate the sensitivities and sensibilities of fellow states.

Insofar as the European Union is concerned, King Constantine and Queen Anne-Marie, are legally Mr and Mrs de Grecia, based on the surname adopted by them both out of their own free will, and as recorded on their passports as Danish citizens. What the Gotha world or various Royal Houses do or do not for their internal consumption is their own prerogative.

However, in a historical sense or in the context of social courtesy, King Constantine and Queen Anne-Marie, are kings for life, thus deserving to be referred to as such but non-territorially, or as King Constantine, former King of the Hellenes and Queen Anne-Marie, former Queen of the Hellenes.

[branchg]

Originally Posted by Splodger

It is possible for a country to recognise a forigner by what ever title they feel is apropriate. For example in Monaco - the former Serene Highness Princess Caroline is officialy known, styled and addressed as Her Royal Highness Princess Ernst of Hanover because the Monasque government (obviously by Prince Rainier) chose to formally recognise her husband by his germanic noble title even though his own country does not formally recognise it.

Caroline is not addressed this way in Monaco. She is addressed as Her Royal Highness or "The Hereditary Princess" by the Court. In other courts, she is addressed as "The Princess of Hanover", as her married style and rank take precedence over her own.

[sgl]

I can't remember where I have read this (possibly this forum, or another), but at some point the GRF was asked to include their surname on their passports, which, according to some sources (I wish I could remember where I read this) is Glucksberg. Does anyone know if this is true, and if it is, where does the name Glucksberg come from? This is hardly a Greek surname. Does is come from Denmark?

[ladejesus]

I hope these articles help SGL:
This Europe: Greek government tells its former king: get a surname if you want your money - Independent Online Edition > Europe
Greece History

It looks like Glucksberg is the name of the dynasty, and as a result, their surname.