The position of the Royal Family and attitudes to restoration

[Alexandria]

Originally Posted by Moonlightrhapsody

I understand that Constantine's parents were highly disliked in Greece and to some extent, Constantine inherited such animosity. My question is, for Constantine's siblings, like Queen Sophia of Spain, are they disliked as much in Greece?

I don't know about Irene, but Sofia is not disliked in Greece. At the time of the military coup, Sofia had already been married for a few years to Juan Carlos, who was the future King of Spain. Although she was born a princess of Greece, and the sister of the deposed King, she was regarded as separate from the matter. Politically within Spain, with much direction from Franco, Juan Carlos and Sofia were advised to separate themselves from the matter even if Constantine was family. Franco did not want Spain associated with the matter in any way. In the years following the coup between making temporary homes in Rome and ultimately in London, Juan Carlos and Sofia provided some financial aid (as did Anne Marie's sister Margrethe and her mom Ingrid) to the family, but in the Spanish couple's case, the monetary support was small and limited as Spain was not that wealthy a monarchy and thus the private funds of the couple not too substantial. (I understand that Ingrid did help out her daughter and son-in-law substantially though.)

In the early nineties, Sofia was able to visit Greece (a good decade before Constantine was able to) because her passport identified her as a citizen of Spain.

My (limited) understanding of the problem is based on mostly what I've learned here, and that the dislike for Constantine was essentially limited to him (and perhaps somewhat to his mother Frederika, but that's another matter), and did not spread to the rest of his family. I think the Greeks did like Anne-Marie as an individual, but obviously she was attached to Constantine and the Greeks disliked him vehemently for his political maneouvers. I think it was nothing personal to any of them, strictly political, but often times, the personal is the political.

[grecka]

I think people overestimate the hatred Greeks feel toward the monarchy. I have cousins who live in Thessaloniki and, I remember, a few years ago I brought up the subject of the monarchy and the only member of the royal family they could name was King Constantine. They had no knowledge of Queen Anne-Marie or Princess Irene or any of the other princes and princessess. Therefore, I'd say that most Greeks have moved on and don't think much of the royal family. After all, Greece has prospered under the Republican system, and grown economically and socially; has moved beyond the political upheaval which ensued after the civil war in the late 1940s and the years of military dictatorship in the 1970s. I do, however still hold, that around 5 percent (maybe less) of the population would characterize themselves as monarchist. A portion of the Greek population still remains extremely conservative (the over 45). It's this portion of the population which is still heavily influenced by the tradition of the Greek Orthodox Church, by the remnants of the glory of the Byzantine Empire, and, believe it or not, by the Greek monarchy (it's also this portion of the population which strongly opposes Turkey's inclusion into the European Union). Outside this small group of supporters, however, the ex-Greek monarchy enjoys a quiet indifference among the general populace.

[Von Schlesian]

Originally Posted by Frothy

He's not "the King". I really don't understand why people are calling him King Constantine and the King. Greece is a Republic. He's ex-King Constantine if you must use the word 'King' at all.

Not entirely true. H.M King Constantine II of the Hellenes is still listed as such in many current records (such as Whitaker's Almanack and Burke's Peerage etc). It is in recognition of his position as head of the Royal Family, who just because they aren't reigning, does not make them any less Royal, especially considering his parents, grandparents etc.

Many former monarchs are still rightfully referred to as King/Queen etc. For example, The King of the French, The Queen of the Albanians, The King of the Roumanians.

[Von Schlesian]

His Majesty responded to a friend of mine, Dr P.W Harris when asked if he thought he'd ever be restored to the throne, "I shall be restored when I grow a sixth toe on each foot".

I know it's not important, but a direct quote from His Majesty.

[Sean.~]

Originally Posted by Von Schlesian

Not entirely true. H.M King Constantine II of the Hellenes is still listed as such in many current records (such as Whitaker's Almanack and Burke's Peerage etc). It is in recognition of his position as head of the Royal Family, who just because they aren't reigning, does not make them any less Royal, especially considering his parents, grandparents etc.

Many former monarchs are still rightfully referred to as King/Queen etc. For example, The King of the French, The Queen of the Albanians, The King of the Roumanians.

Rather than being rightful, it is a matter of choice, since these are only titles of pretensions. Their Kingdoms don't exist anymore.One can choose to acknowledge them & one can choose not to. By not choosing to use their titles one is not commiting any kind of diplomatic gaffe. Conversely, by using them one may affect the sensibilities of the legitimate governments of these countries and their peoples.

No one is really referred to as the King of the French. There are competing claimants, but they use & are known by different titles -- Comte de Paris, Duc de Anjou, & Prince Napoleon. Maybe that's what you meant.

By the way, I really enjoy your posts. In fact, I think we have so many interesting and knowledgable posters here! If I come across as terse in my posts, I'm not trying to be. It's my writing style and I'm workin on it!

[Sean.~]

Originally Posted by grecka

I think people overestimate the hatred Greeks feel toward the monarchy. I have cousins who live in Thessaloniki and, I remember, a few years ago I brought up the subject of the monarchy and the only member of the royal family they could name was King Constantine. They had no knowledge of Queen Anne-Marie or Princess Irene or any of the other princes and princessess. Therefore, I'd say that most Greeks have moved on and don't think much of the royal family. After all, Greece has prospered under the Republican system, and grown economically and socially; has moved beyond the political upheaval which ensued after the civil war in the late 1940s and the years of military dictatorship in the 1970s. I do, however still hold, that around 5 percent (maybe less) of the population would characterize themselves as monarchist. A portion of the Greek population still remains extremely conservative (the over 45). It's this portion of the population which is still heavily influenced by the tradition of the Greek Orthodox Church, by the remnants of the glory of the Byzantine Empire, and, believe it or not, by the Greek monarchy (it's also this portion of the population which strongly opposes Turkey's inclusion into the European Union). Outside this small group of supporters, however, the ex-Greek monarchy enjoys a quiet indifference among the general populace.

A very succinct and well written post, Grecka!

Sean

[Warren]

Originally Posted by Sean.~

By the way, I really enjoy your posts. In fact, I think we have so many interesting and knowledgable posters here! If I come across as terse in my posts, I'm not trying to be. It's my writing style and I'm workin on it!

Welcome to TRF fellow Australian Von Schlesian, and well said, Sean (and thanks for the reassurance re your writing style!)

:) :)
W

[Splodger]

The style to which Constantine (and other ex-kings) are accorded is a 'political' one. If you support their claime you therefore recognise them as being 'King.' If you dont support them you then can either call them 'Ex-King' or 'Mr' depending upon whether you wish to accord them any degree of respect. Its a personal thing.

I do also wish people could see the years under the Monarchy in the context of the time. Previous republics and dictatorships didn't work either. Greece had alot of problems, especialy ecanomical which the advent of tourism in the late 60s and 70s, due to affordabe commercial airlines, boosted the economy. The Republic did not invent the jumbo jet, tourism coinsided with the republic.

As for how Greeks talk about politics openly - some issues yes, but I am only accounting what I am seeing here - also it isn't an every day toppic of conversation - most people mind their own business and unlike me dont go around asking their friends the perculier question "do you like 'ex'-King Constantine." I must confess no one ever asks me if i like Queen Elizabeth - they ask me about Tony Blair but not the British Royal Family.

Mind you what ever their feelings, at least Karamanlis can walk about without being hurled abuse at like Tony Blair - I have never seen Blair in person but Karamanlis walked right passed me - I was quite impressed, given where my sympathies lie I would have preffered to see you know who but I thought it was nice.

[Frothy]

They had no knowledge of Queen Anne-Marie or Princess Irene or any of the other princes and princessess. Therefore, I'd say that most Greeks have moved on and don't think much of the royal family.

LOL! Which, I'm sure, they probably hate worse than people actually caring.

I can't agree with the earlier poster. Nobody is 'rightly' referred to as the King of France, that's nuts! What is royalty, in the end? a crowned head of state of a particular country. A royal title derives from either the consent of the people or despotism (England on the one hand, Saudi Arabia on the other). If the people vote to become a Republic that's the end of it. Calling a person a King when the people of that country said 'we're a republic thanks' is an insult to them. He's not 'Majesty', he's Mr. X.

HRH Princess Anne-Marie is a true Princess of the first rank however as a Princess of Denmark, daughter of a Danish monarch.

As is being discussed on the MC thread, the interesting thing about the former Greek royals is their connection to the royal house of Denmark. I am still trying to work out if the Denmark in 'of greece and Denmark' still officially applies to make them Danish princes and princesses, or if it is in the nature of a description of their house and lineage - in which case they would be only ex-princes of Greece and therefore, of Denmark.

And as noted on this thread, even ex-King Constantine calls himself "Ex" or former on his own website. There is no need for others to claim for him more than he claims for himself. In this respect I find Constantine more gracious and more respectful of Greece and the will of the Greeks than Pavlos and M-C whose insistence on Greek titles (they never talk about the putative Danish ones) strikes me as pretentious, sad, and disrespectful to Greece's decision to be a republic.

[Von Schlesian]

Sean;
Thankyou kindly for your encouragement. It certainly makes me feel at ease to know that when around like minded people (those with deep interest in Royal Families), I can post knowledge which in many other cases would simply wash over people.

Warren, thankyou too for your welcome.

Splodger;
I think the issue you raise is a true one, unfortunately too many people look towards Monarchs as purely political figures, and not (as with our monarchy), being "above politics". I don't think people's method of address is purely for former Monarchs either, the amount of people I hear referring to "Lizzie Windsor, and Phil the Greek" makes me cringe.

And I think the issue (for those Christians out there), may also be related to the divine right of Kings, but I'm not going to open that can of worms here : )

[Von Schlesian]

Originally Posted by Frothy

I can't agree with the earlier poster. Nobody is 'rightly' referred to as the King of France, that's nuts!

Did anyone actually write "King of France"?? I don't think so. If I were to write that, then correct you'd be to challenge. However, I wrote "King of the French", which is an entirely different meaning.

To everyone else, my apologies if the content of my posts appears to be "nuts" :)

[Frothy]

LOL, no offence meant! But I do think it is "nuts", crazy, off-the-wall - let's say just very unusual :) to call somebody 'King of the French'. I understand the distinction you make with the post-Napoleon titles btw; but 'King of the French' is, if possible, more odd even than 'King of France' given that these same French are the ones who chose a Republic! He is plainly not their King!

Now, Constantine admits this himself on his own website. If he, himself, concedes former King, why should anyone else claim for him rank and status he does not claim for himself? The Greeks and the ex-King agree that he is not a King and not their King. Everybody else should accept this jointly agreed fact, it seems to me. My $0.02!

[Frothy]

As a Catholic I do not believe in divine right of Kings, but as an ardent monarchist, I believe that there is a danger to constitutional monarchy everywhere when pretenders ignore the will of the people. Sean has pointed me to a place where the British royal family refers on a website to Constantine, a private citizen, as King of the Hellenes. That is, luckily, not widely known in the UK and if it were to be discovered would give ammo to our small but determined republican movement.

For royalty to be safe in this world (and also as a matter of ethics and natural justice) the will of the people is all.

Greece is a republic, and it has neither King nor Queen nor Princes. The will of the Greek people must be respected. the ex-King does respect it, it seems his son and daughter in law do not. That's the difference.

[Splodger]

The British RF upset the Greeks in 1981, when the Greek president discovered he was further down the list of guests at Prince Charles & Diana's wedding than Constantine who was listed as King and not ex-King. Personaly i wouldnt have put it passed Charles or even Philip to do that on purpose for a laugh at the republics expence... on one of Philips many occasions where he expresses his opinion before thinking of the outcomes, he has expressed his less than charmed impression for them. I forget what it was in connection to, but it was something about thanking the Greeks for something and he said something on the lines of "they exciled me once, my mother twice and tried to execute my farther... what have i to thank them for."

[Sean.~]

QUOTE=Splodger]The style to which Constantine (and other ex-kings) are accorded is a 'political' one. If you support their claime you therefore recognise them as being 'King.' If you dont support them you then can either call them 'Ex-King' or 'Mr' depending upon whether you wish to accord them any degree of respect. Its a personal thing. [/quote]

This is true, however, many also use the styles for social reasons and/or reasons of courtesy.

I

do also wish people could see the years under the Monarchy in the context of the time. Previous republics and dictatorships didn't work either. Greece had alot of problems, especialy ecanomical which the advent of tourism in the late 60s and 70s, due to affordabe commercial airlines, boosted the economy. The Republic did not invent the jumbo jet, tourism coinsided with the republic.

This can be said for other counties, too. However, while an interesting analysis, it does not negate the poor decisions made during the monarchy which in turn led to the republics. The reign of Constantine I comes immediately to mind. I deliniated the mistakes of his regime in detail in another place on this forum previously.

[Sean.~]

Originally Posted by Frothy

As a Catholic I do not believe in divine right of Kings, but as an ardent monarchist, I believe that there is a danger to constitutional monarchy everywhere when pretenders ignore the will of the people. Sean has pointed me to a place where the British royal family refers on a website to Constantine, a private citizen, as King of the Hellenes. That is, luckily, not widely known in the UK and if it were to be discovered would give ammo to our small but determined republican movement.

For royalty to be safe in this world (and also as a matter of ethics and natural justice) the will of the people is all.

Greece is a republic, and it has neither King nor Queen nor Princes. The will of the Greek people must be respected. the ex-King does respect it, it seems his son and daughter in law do not. That's the difference.

The ex-King respects it to a certain degree. One could also access his website by simply using King of Greece, too! Seriously, though, I think over the last decade or so he's resigned himself to the fact that he won't be invited back in. Whether he's okay with that is another story.

And in Britain (at least amongst those who follow these things), most people know that he is referred to as King of the Hellenes, at least that is the impression I get. Buckingham Palace has never made a secret of the fact that it accords him the title and style.

[Sean.~]

Originally Posted by Splodger

The British RF upset the Greeks in 1981, when the Greek president discovered he was further down the list of guests at Prince Charles & Diana's wedding than Constantine who was listed as King and not ex-King. Personaly i wouldnt have put it passed Charles or even Philip to do that on purpose for a laugh at the republics expence... on one of Philips many occasions where he expresses his opinion before thinking of the outcomes, he has expressed his less than charmed impression for them. I forget what it was in connection to, but it was something about thanking the Greeks for something and he said something on the lines of "they exciled me once, my mother twice and tried to execute my farther... what have i to thank them for."

There was a to-do at the time of Caroline of Monaco's wedding to Philip Junot. The Greek representative was quite upset at the pre-wedding ball because Constantine was there as the "King of Hellenes". The representative stated at that time that 'Greece does not have a King'.

[Frothy]

And in Britain (at least amongst those who follow these things), most people know that he is referred to as King of the Hellenes

But the people who follow minor Euro royalty are rare indeed in the UK. I suppose we are somewhat snobby, but I doubt that more than a third of one percent could name you the Crown princes of Europe, even, or name the King of the Belgians. How much less, then, do we care about the upstart pretensions of a deposed ex-monarch from a let's-face-it-wasn't-a-real-monarchy in the first place house?

Most thought that Princess Elizabeth married way beneath herself in choosing a Prince from a Johnny come lately house like that and there's a reason he was created Prince of the United Kingdom, so that Britons would know he had a "real" title.

But in that Buck House would be trumping, or ignoring, the will of the Greek people in referring to this guy as a King, that could, if it got out, make them look ridiculous and also anti-democratic. Kind of thing that loses monarchy referenda in C