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  #221  
Old 05-28-2010, 05:34 PM
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But what you are mentioning it's not a monarchy on the original sense but a parliamentary monarchy, at least it's how it's called in Spain, I hope you get what I'm trying to say. I think that we can agree that the traditional monarchy doesn't have a place in Europe in this century.
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  #222  
Old 05-28-2010, 05:36 PM
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i know it's not the opposite of democracy. i agree with your post Kotroman. but we are talking about greece now and people here don't seem to know some basic facts. the monarchy here lasted until 1967 and the king had a lot of power in his hands(even the mother of the last king had power!), he didn't help the democratic politicians to establish a true democratic form of state. the prisons were full of people who didn't do any crime. just because they suspected that a citizen was not a monarchist or worse, he was a communist, they arrested him and kept him in prison with terrible tortures, i have to say. the monarchy under the glucksburgs is connected with much violence and constant violation of the basic human rights. the Greeks abolished the monarchy with their vote and now people say we have bad manners or low qualities, like hatred, and this is why we don't want constantine back? this is absurd! that's why i'm telling you...

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  #223  
Old 05-28-2010, 05:41 PM
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Originally Posted by Melibea View Post
Kotroman
But what you are mentioning it's not a monarchy on the original sense but a parliamentary monarchy, at least it's how it's called in Spain, I hope you get what I'm trying to say. I think that we can agree that the traditional monarchy doesn't have a place in Europe in this century.
If by traditional monarchy you mean absolute monarchy, then I agree with you. However, a traditional monarchy is not neccessarily an absolute monarchy.
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  #224  
Old 05-28-2010, 05:47 PM
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i agree Kotroman and Melibea. and as you see, greece had something between an absolute and constitutional monarchy. it is a very sensitive case, this is why i explained to you all these. every Greek with a brain is natural not to want the royal family back. we have our Presidents of democracy here to represent us. and they are and were all very decent men. Tsatsos, Sartzetakis, Karamanlis, Stefanopoulos and now Karolos Papoulias, all great men. seriously, i can't think about a President that didn't deserve our love and respect so far.

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  #225  
Old 05-28-2010, 05:51 PM
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Originally Posted by Kotroman View Post
If by traditional monarchy you mean absolute monarchy, then I agree with you. However, a traditional monarchy is not neccessarily an absolute monarchy.
I supposed that it depended on the country, but at least in my country the Borbones meant that, an absolute monarchy. But that's another topic.

And I can uderstand GRS. on why monarchy hasn't got another opportunity in Greece.
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  #226  
Old 05-28-2010, 07:37 PM
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My parents were monarchical and I am a monarchist, I believe in the monarchy. I do not agree with the laws that prevented the king of his passport, and I admire the Queen Sofia and I like say that she is greek.We are very few who belive in the monarchy.
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  #227  
Old 05-29-2010, 03:47 AM
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The discussion spun out into a very confused and confusing tangent today.
Those posts have been removed.

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  #228  
Old 05-29-2010, 04:33 AM
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Originally Posted by Odette View Post
All I can say regarding the above posts is that thank God, no Greek can blame the royal family for the current mess.
Although the King and Queen and their children summer in Porto Heli and visit throughout the year, the truth is that they have established their home elsewhere and as much as they love Greece, they should consider themselves lucky they cannot be connected to any of the scandals that turned our dear country into the world's laughingstock.
Seeing as my other posts agreeing with your comment have been deleted.
I would like to say that I agree with your statement, I suppose this is one of the benefits of being a deposed King.
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  #229  
Old 05-29-2010, 07:27 AM
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Originally Posted by Jaya View Post
...They area bit like the Gandhis in India.....a dynastic rule...
I agree with you.
The monarchical dynasty was replaced by the dynasties of Papandreou and Karamanlis .... Andreas Papandreou, the father wrote a criticism of the monarchy, many years ago, where he said that monarchy was a sequence in the power of members of one family ...
From grandfather to father and from father to son .... he criticized the dynasties, but forgot to include in the list to his dynasty
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  #230  
Old 05-29-2010, 09:05 AM
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Posts discussing current Greek politics have been and will be removed.

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  #231  
Old 05-29-2010, 09:12 AM
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I'll try and go through this as best as I can.

In the 19th century, the rise of nationalism led to the birth of modern-day nation-states as they are in Europe, as Serbia, Greece, Bulgaria and Romania all became independent countries (and Albania later on) after almost five centuries of Turkish domination. At that time, despite the French Revolution, most nations of Europe were still monarchies- only Switzerland and San Marino were republics (this is between the rise of Napoleon and the end of the Second French Empire). So the decision was made with assent of the great powers to place members of existing European royal houses on newly-created thrones of Greece, and later Bulgaria and Romania. But the trend of importing royal houses was hardly unique at that time- after all of Europe's royal houses came from another country and assimilated/localised themselves- the present-day British and Norwegian royals being good examples.

Serbia, Montenegro, Albania and Georgia are different in that the royal houses of those countries are exclusively home-grown, and the founder of the House of Karadjordjevic was also a leader of Serbia's independence struggle, while the other three also had long traditions as royal (or in Albania's case, aristocratic) families.

The notion of monarchy being a concept alien to Greece is an interesting one for those schooled in Greek history from antiquity to the present day. Greece is indeed the birthplace of many of today's democratic ideals, which also includes constitutional monarchy. Sparta could be considered one of the first examples of such, since the kings' power was not absolute and there was a council and assembly. And other Greek kingdoms (including Macedon) had similar institutions. Then you had the Byzantine Empire, which was effectively a continuation of the Roman Empire, a continuation of Greek and Roman culture and traditions. Between then and Greek independence, only the Mani peninsula maintained autonomy due to its ruggedness and isolation.

For a monarchy to succeed it must establish a bond, a connection with the people and identify with the people of their land. It is true that the Romanian and Bulgarian royal houses, while of foreign (German) origin, have maintained that to a degree today and some sentiment in favour of restoration exists, although not quite as strong as it is in Serbia or Georgia. Perhaps, too, the standing of those royal houses might even have been strengthened by the misfortunes those countries experienced after losing their monarchies- Communist oppression, and the subsequent losses for Serbia and Georgia leaving many people looking for a rallying point (as I've iterated in another thread).

Greeks' feelings towards the Royals vary greatly- and that's partly the reason why a restoration is extraordinarily unlikely, because whereas monarchies are supposed to be unifying forces, in Greece it was for a long time a divisive issue. Many do indeed resent what they saw as political interference from the Kings and from Queen Frederica, at a time when almost all other surviving European monarchies had long become figureheads who did not interfere in politics. Paul was not wholly unpopular, but Frederica's unpopularity undermined him as it did Constantine.

Constantine ascended the throne at the time of a political crisis in Greece, and his handling of such coupled with the above-mentioned perception of Frederica sealed the monarchy's fate. In a sense, this was a misfortune because he had the chance to become a good king and one who could win wider support for the monarchy from the people- one thing I've heard said was that Constantine was "the most Greek" of all kings to have reigned in modern Greece. It is fair to say that the situation was not entirely of his own making, but little he did at the time helped the position of the monarchy.

AFAIK, at the time of the referendum, Constantine had promised that if he had been allowed to return as King, he would stay out of politics and Frederica would not return. Ironically, the very forces that had backed the monarchy up to the 1967 coup- the conservatives, church and military- were all instrumental in its demise.

Not all members of the family are viewed in a negative light- Irene and Sofia, from what I gather, do seem to be more liked and respected by Greeks even today, and even Anna-Maria seems to be such. But none of those were involved in any way with the political mess that was happening at the time and we can see that Sofia went on to become an excellent Queen for Spain, and Juan Carlos proved to be an exemplary and reconciling monarch- and had Constantine been the same, the monarchy might have survived.

Did the Royals (or at least the Kings and Queen Frederica) interfere in politics? Yes. Were there some hideous occurrences in Greece at the time? Definitely. But were they to blame for all of Greece's woes? I don't think so. If anything, it can be argued they had been made scapegoats for Greece's problems. And perhaps a further irony is that in light of Greece's present-day problems, one might have to reassess certain aspects of history- the fact that the political groups that came out of this period of Greek history must also shoulder responsibility for its current problems.

Hopefully this covers enough ground. I am new to this place, and am well aware of the forum's stance on political posting, so I've tried to skirt that as best as I can.
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  #232  
Old 05-29-2010, 10:00 AM
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thank you.
You opinion is not bad is pretty good though I disagree on some of your statements, such as limits on the European Kings was created by French Revolution and its extension to other countries as Spain.
The foreign Kings in these countries, This is because the major powers put the money for the weapons with which were funded the wars to these territories constituted subsequently States.
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  #233  
Old 05-29-2010, 10:36 AM
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Originally Posted by BELTRANEJA View Post
thank you.
You opinion is not bad is pretty good though I disagree on some of your statements, such as limits on the European Kings was created by French Revolution and its extension to other countries as Spain.
The foreign Kings in these countries, This is because the major powers put the money for the weapons with which were funded the wars to these territories constituted subsequently States.
The French Revolution did play a crucial role- albeit not the sole factor, and however indirect- in national awakenings (as did the Revolutions of 1848, its effects could be felt right up to WWI). This was definitely the case in Greece. The struggle for independence in both Greece and Serbia began not long after the French Revolution. Montenegro remained an independent ecclesiastical principality for centuries, and Mani as explained above retained autonomy and resisted Ottoman rule for centuries too- both as a result of geographic factors too.

I think I can expand the point more- after French Revolution, the revolutionaries originally tried to spread radical Jacobin and Republican ideas throughout Europe. However, when Napoleon came to power, republicanism was abandoned in favour of a new monarchism, which was also eagerly (and somewhat more successfully) exported- hence you had the "client monarchies" like Westphalia, Etruria, Warsaw, etc. With the Peace of Vienna, things were "back to normal"- which meant the pre-revolution monarchies of Germany, Italy, Spain and France.

The events of 1805-1815 and 1848 cemented the modern concept of constitutional monarchy as we understand it, even though Britain had evolved its system by convention over centuries, Sweden and Poland had developed relatively liberal political systems times past, and Norway had (during the time of Napoleonic Wars) drafted a democratic monarchist constitution.

In this context, it might be easier to understand the scenario that led to the creation of the modern monarchies in Greece, Romania (following unification) and Bulgaria (upon independence).
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  #234  
Old 05-29-2010, 10:52 AM
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Good, this is true, current monarchies are the result of a whole series of historical events ..(.... the Second World War, the Declaration of Human Rights, European Union ...) and the internal developments in each country.
I wanted to put a date or event as a starting point of the evolution of current monarchies, with the French Revolution, the end of the old regime of absolute monarchies.....and continue of evolution..
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  #235  
Old 05-29-2010, 11:16 AM
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Originally Posted by BELTRANEJA View Post
Okay, this is true, current monarchies are the result of a whole series of historical events ..(.... the Second World War, the Declaration of Human Rights, European Union ...) and the internal developments in each country.
I wanted to put a date or event as a starting point of the evolution of current monarchies, with the French Revolution, the end of the old regime of absolute monarchies.....and continue of evolution..
Given that each country evolved differently- as explained above, the development of a constitutional monarchy began in the UK, Sweden and Poland earlier, and most European monarchies did have legislative bodies of varying degrees for centuries ("Estates of the Realm", even in France though that was utterly powerless)- it's hard to put a definite starting date. On the continent, the French Revolution and Napoleonic Wars, and the Revolutions of 1848, did assist the evolution towards modern constitutional monarchy but even then some monarchs were more inclined to wield their powers than others. You can check out constitutions dating from back then.

The first post-independence monarch in Greece, Otto, did not come until a decade after Greece had won its War of Independence. Of course, you could have chosen one of two ways- select a native monarch (as Serbia and later Albania would), or import someone from existing European royal houses. In Romania, btw, the principalities of Moldavia and Wallachia had a long line of elected local princes (from the existing boyar class), and one of those was originally ruler of all Romania upon unification.

But when we talk about the situation of post-WWII Greece, the monarchy definitely wielded greater political influence than others in Europe, and this along with the fact they were never accepted by many Greeks led to their downfall.

So it might be hard not to underestimate the differences in political evolution and experiences between Greece and other Balkan nations post-WWII, that explain differences in attitudes to their Royal Families.
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  #236  
Old 05-29-2010, 12:49 PM
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Originally Posted by David V View Post
Serbia, Montenegro, Albania and Georgia are different in that the royal houses of those countries are exclusively home-grown,

The notion of monarchy being a concept alien to Greece is an interesting one for those schooled in Greek history from antiquity to the present day. Greece is indeed the birthplace of many of today's democratic ideals, which also includes constitutional monarchy.
For a monarchy to succeed it must establish a bond, a connection with the people and identify with the people of their land.

Greeks' feelings towards the Royals vary greatly- and that's partly the reason why a restoration is extraordinarily unlikely, because whereas monarchies are supposed to be unifying forces, in Greece it was for a long time a divisive issue. Many do indeed resent what they saw as political interference from the Kings and from Queen Frederica, at a time when almost all other surviving European monarchies had long become figureheads who did not interfere in politics. Paul was not wholly unpopular, but Frederica's unpopularity undermined him as it did Constantine.

Constantine ascended the throne at the time of a political crisis in Greece, and his handling of such coupled with the above-mentioned perception of Frederica sealed the monarchy's fate. In a sense, this was a misfortune because he had the chance to become a good king and one who could win wider support for the monarchy from the people- one thing I've heard said was that Constantine was "the most Greek" of all kings to have reigned in modern Greece. It is fair to say that the situation was not entirely of his own making, but little he did at the time helped the position of the monarchy
You couldn't have said it better.We all have to admit that it wasn't completely his fault,regarding the fact that he was very very young and inexperienced but what he did was not enough.I fully agree with everything,even with what people say that he was ''the most Greek'' among the rulers in Greece.But still..
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  #237  
Old 06-05-2010, 01:38 AM
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One area where many people are confusing the issue is that the Hellenic Constitution of 1952 was indeed conferring certain prerogatives to the monarch. Thus, what Constantine did was within the framework of constitutionality. However, it was politically wrong and, in essence, he dug out his own grave.
With respect to Frederika, there are more data coming out. Back in 2006, Mr. Zoulas, a respectable journalist of I KATHIMERINI, the pre-eminent conservative Athens daily, wrote that Madame Helen Vlachos, the ultracoservative and royalist powerful publisher disliked Frederika for many reasons including her arrogance and expectation that even women curtsey and kiss her hand - evidently, an old Germanic but obsolete, even at her time, habit.
Indeed, I saw recently a short video clip of the wedding of Sofia and Juan Carlos, showing that at the end of the ceremony, when her mother congratulated them, Sofia curtseyed and kissed Frederika's hand.

At any rate, as we have discussed many times and the topic is by now exhausted, even superb monarchs such as Juan Carlos and Sofia (it cannot get any better than that) have not prevented corruption to prevail. Thus, with or without monarchy, the problem of European states, and worse, the Balkan ones lies elsewhere
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  #238  
Old 06-05-2010, 07:02 AM
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More were unconstitutional the reforms that took place with Karamanlis ,during the decade 50-early 60 and nobody said about it.
the politicals steal and they continue in office, they have immunity , it is unconstitutional and politically incorrect, but nobody says anything.
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  #239  
Old 06-05-2010, 05:10 PM
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More were unconstitutional the reforms that took place with Karamanlis ,during the decade 50-early 60 and nobody said about it.
the politicals steal and they continue in office, they have immunity , it is unconstitutional and politically incorrect, but nobody says anything.
I don't think that " noboby says anything" . I believe you have noticed that publc has not been reacting very politely the past one and a half month when it comes to politicians in this coutry. In regards to Karamanlis , I not know how much reaction he actually faced during that decade but I don't believe that no one protested, people have been protesting many times during history in our country when it come to politicians , it's not that all their energy was consummed exclusively in blaming the Kings they had.

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O
With respect to Frederika, there are more data coming out. Back in 2006, Mr. Zoulas, a respectable journalist of I KATHIMERINI, the pre-eminent conservative Athens daily, wrote that Madame Helen Vlachos, the ultracoservative and royalist powerful publisher disliked Frederika for many reasons including her arrogance and expectation that even women curtsey and kiss her hand - evidently, an old Germanic but obsolete, even at her time, habit.
Helen Vlachos has admitted it herself that she was not very fond of Frederica's personality and that one of her favourite habits whenever she was in Prince Peter's company was to start gossiping regarding the Queen , As she has put it in her column " somehow the discussion would always lead to the Queen ".
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  #240  
Old 06-07-2010, 10:39 AM
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I don't think that " noboby says anything" . I believe you have noticed that publc has not been reacting very politely the past one and a half month when it comes to politicians in this coutry. In regards to Karamanlis , I not know how much reaction he actually faced during that decade but I don't believe that no one protested, people have been protesting many times during history in our country when it come to politicians , it's not that all their energy was consummed exclusively in blaming the Kings they had.
I agree.They protested.Maybe not in the way they do it today (which is awful,including damages and victims) but they always did and he was severely criticized even then.
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