The Monarchy in Greece

[ilias of john]

Phillipo,
a couple of quick corrections,
Letters patent are created by H.M QE2 of the U.k which grant titles and styles of nobility to her relatives and descendants.She has not granted any title of Prince to Peter or Zara Phillips and as such are not entitled to use them.If they were to even in the U.K they would be charged with a Very serious criminal offense.Your point on them using Titles of Nobility in Greece is mute.
The German Battenburg family were not stripped of their German titles when they moved to the U.K. They voluntarilly surended them during the First World War after they had been living in the Uk for many years,I think about 120 all up.That is when King George cganged the Family surname from Saxe Coburg Gotha to Windsor, remember?
Princess Katherine upon becoming Lady Bradman did not have to apply for British citizenship because she was directly related to that Hanoverian Princess that the British parliament said ll successors must be related to(what was her name again?_)
And you are quite right about the Late Ethnarch Venizelos,wasnt he that seccessionist who tried to set up a rival Greek goverment in Thessaloniki?I think today we would call it a revolution,junta words to that effect?
P.s who would have arrested the Colonels?

 

[Philippe Egalite']

His Majesty and the Greek people have given up so much for very little.

The Greeks never give up anything. On the contrary they have always fought for independence, then for expansion [Thessaly, Crete, Epirus, Macedonia, Thrace, Samos and the Dodecanese Archipelago] of the country's boundaries and last but not least against fascism and later communism, and all that at the cost of millions of lives. In WWII alone, Greece lost 2 milion souls.

With respect to king Constantine, you may be right or, at least, this is what most Greeks hold against him, that is, that he gave up so much (democracy, 1967) for very little (to save his own life).

 

[ilias of john]

quote
With respect to king Constantine, you may be right or, at least, this is what most Greeks hold against him, that is, that he gave up so much (democracy, 1967) for very little (to save his own life).Today 07:51 PM
Who would have helped him to arrest the Colonels, Phillip?
He tried on his own, remember?
As for independence and expansion, you forgot to mention the most important one of all.The asia minor campaign, and of course remember that Churchill said
"that from now on no longer will we say that the Greeks fight like hero's.From now on we shall say that hero's fight like Greeks".1941
The Greeks didn't conquer the Dodecanese, we got given them at the end of ww2.We fought for liberty pure and simple.
If memory serves me was it not H.M GEORGE 1 who ruled Greece for 50 odd years and doubled the land size of your nation and tripled the size of the population? And was it not that Venizelos who created an independant Cretan republic, and when that Failed and FINALLY joined Greece he scurried off to Greece, entered National politics there and even tried to destroy that Nation by creating a seccessionist regime?

 

[Daytona]

Ilias,why is it so difficult for you to understand and accept that the Greek constitution doesnt regognize any titles and that all Greek citizens are equal?Equality and isonomy for all.Former king Constantine was a head of the state and when Greek people decided that monarchy should be abolished,he lost all priveleges and titles.Under Greek laws and constitution he is not anything more or less than any other Greek who have the same rights and obligations to greek laws and constitution.All Greeks in many circumstances of our life,for instance the army,give oath to uphold the greek laws and constitution which is the greek republic.If he wants a surname he should acknowledge the current constitution.ie recognize the referendum which abolished the monarchy.I am curious why someone from the other side of the planet is so persisant on monarchy in Greece without knowing or understanding why Greeks abolished this anachronistic regime.Believe me, Greece is way better off today under the current regime.Now,if you enjoy calling him a king or majesty or bow before him this is your prerogative.Me,on the other hand iam free.

I am a great admirer of the French civilasation and of the Revolution Francaise which actually set the foundations and the ideologic basis for the Greek revolution.

 

[Philippe Egalite']

The Hellenic Republic does not recognize titles. In this respect, it goes further and farther than even the United States of America. In the USA, there is one category of people who are addressed differently, the professional groups of physicians and dentists (and infrequently those who hold PhD degrees). Indeed, all MDs and DDSs, in the USA, are referred to and addressed as Dr something.
In Greece, all MDs are referred to and addressed as Mr/Mrs something.

 

[ilias of john]

Daytona,..
I do not find it difficult at all to understand what the Greek constituition says nor do I find it difficult to accept that it does not recognize any titles of nobility. What I do not accept is the fact that it was a false referendum that brought this constituition in to place and all it did was take power from one and give it to another that is not appointed by the Greek population but by a select few who are primarilly interested in feathering their own nests.
In terms of being from the other side of the planet my friend you will undoubtably know that the Greek diaspora is far flung(notice my name).
I know full well the events of '74 I still remember them.
The French revolution is still developing, they have only had 4 republics since the last Emperor(have you heard the theory that the Buonaparte's were of Maniot descent?).
Every change has brought more instability and uncertainty and I read just recently that their new President wants to change the constituition(again) so that the Prime Ministers powers dont conflict with his own!
Kalinihta!

 

[Daytona]

Firstly,it is nice knowing you are Greek.Secondly,no one questions the referendum,only the former king and his followers.Even today the former king has limited followers.Do you know why Constantine lost power?I cant understand your point of vue regarding "took power and gave it to another that is not appointed by the Greek people".You obviously mean the generals government but you tend to forget that some military men took advantage of the political instability,created by the palace,that the former king actually inaugurated the illegal government,that the palace prior to that was constantly interferring with politics when objecting with the decisions of the pm and ministers.The monarchy in Greece will never be restored.Kalimera.

 

[lucien]

Secondly,no one questions the referendum,only the former king and his followers.Kalimera.

Perhaps you missed that for decades the Greeks have been brainwashed on the RF,not a chance was missed,or created,to villify the King and his family.
All of Europe questioned that so-called and fraudulous referendum,in fact,it doesn't even deserve that qualification.The subsequent greek governments went out of their way to block out anything related to the RF.Even up to now,if they can.But the Euro's from Brussels lurked and pockets were to be filled,and the coniving & corruption prevails,so they gave/give in,bit by bit,on the rights of the RF that is,acknowledging they existed and allow them back in the country took the EU to accomplish,
all other aforementioned florishes still like the sky is the limit and has become such a "common" matter,they fail to see it as it is.Kalispera.

 

[Daytona]

The referendum is the ultimate democracy,people choose and decide and that is what happened in our case.Do you know that 90% of the Greek people voted against?The former king questions the result because he wasnt in Greece at that time and he couldnt be certain that any fraududelences were made.It is quite reasonable when loosing your power but i think he disregards the will of the majority.The referendum took place after the democracy was restored in Greece so the situation was altered in terms of freedom of speech,freedoms that were limited or none during the coup d eta.In which Europe are you referring to that questioned the referendum?Only the monarchies.If a referendum took place today under the supervision of the EU,what would the outcome be you think.Never in the Greek history were the greek people pro monarchs,in fact other times the monarchy was abolished.The royal regime is anachronistic.Kalispera.

 

[ilias of john]

A Royal Duke Who voted YES to execute his King

Louis-Philippe of France - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[ilias of john]

It seems that when the Greek Royal Dynasty was created HM King George I was elected unanimously by the Entire Greek Parliament and the decision was ratified by not only all politicians, generals, Bishops, Nomarchs of States within Greece but even the Head of the small Greek postal service.
Now that to me is democracy!

I got this of H.M'S web site

The Greek Royal Family - Historical Archive

 

[Warren]

All posts discussing Greek politics, bombings and economics have been removed.

Warren
Greek Forums moderator

 

[mourtza]

If the king were of Greek decent, things would have been totally different. Moreover, he who knows about royalty, things should be seen from a different point of view. What has been done, results and then reaction. People nowadays, are wowing for artistocracy, however, they don't find the right people who have the ways in order to admire. We are not in the medieval ages anymore. My family had a village as a feudal estate bearing our own name and now we are mere civilians. Do you believe that life is faire like this if we would have still had the old possessions?
Just asking to know?

 

[iakynthi]

It's really sad when it comes to justice and old possessions.My family suffered a lot,too.But let's forget about these things.
It's the 24th of July today and Greece is celebrating the Democracy and the end of dictatorship.A great day indeed.We should be very happy...Is everybody cool?

 

[Odette]

Hi Iakynthi..........I am cool. How hot is it where you are?
Any photo updates from Porto Heli? I believe the GRF must be vacationing there these days.

 

[iakynthi]

Nothing special,Odette.
I'm looking forward to reading the new Life 'n Style in August.That's the only way we can learn something.The media are busy with the new fire outside Athens.
Jesus,they have burnt the whole country the last 2 years.Maybe,the Miller father won't find anything to buy here...lol

 

[Odette]

I am sure K Constantine and Q Anne Marie will be in Beijing for 8/8/08 Keep an eye on Life & Style and keep us up to date.
The Anna Maria foundation has supported some of those who lost their houses in Peloponese in the fires........God I hope there are no more fires. Such a destruction.

 

[branchg]

Constantine uses "Constantine de Grecia" on his Danish passport, which should suffice for the Greek government. But they are not satisfied for political reasons and that is the end of that. But protocol is a formerly reigning King is granted the courtesy of his title and style, but not precedence, the same as any royal person.

The Battenbergs were allowed to use their royal style and title by Queen Victoria and Edward VII (HSH Prince/Princess of Battenberg) until 1917, when George V, had to ask his relatives to reliniquish using their German styles in the UK in response to World War I. As a result, HSH Prince Louis of Battenberg was created Marquess of Milford Haven and HSH Prince Alexander of Battenberg (eldest son of Prince Henry and Princess Beatrice) was created Marquess of Carisbrooke.

 

[brandon]

That's an interesting thread to me personally because I lived in Greece during some of the Seventies. We were just down the street from the Polytechnic, living across from Green Park, so we saw all the action in '73. Then I was in London when the dictatorship fell some months later and all the headlines in the Evening Standard said "Constantine: I'm Going Home!" But this turned out to be premature, as the new interim PM Costas Karamanlis told him not to return. Perhaps he should have ignored that advice as a Greek citizen and simply returned? Perhaps some people in the party that normally supported the monarchy did not want the king on account of his mother as much as the fact of his having gone along with the dictatorship initially in the eyes of many. On the other hand, I thought it was hugely unfair that the king was not given adequate time or even allowed to campaign for the monarchy in person during the referendum in '74. This was not a level playing field, IMO.

 

[Odette]

When the Junta fell and the politicians called Karamanlis in Paris to return and head the interim government, Karamalis spoke with K Constantine and asked him to "wait" before returning to Greece. KC waited and that was a mistake. The Shan and King Hussein were urging him to return at that point in Athens but he went along with Karamanlis's suggestion instead. That was a point when things may have changed.
When the referendum was put on the table a lot of Greeks were waiting for a nod from Karamanlis but he had old scores to settle with Q Frederika and he never spoke until after the results.
Going back to the dictatorship, KC agreed to sign on with them since they had rounded up the entire government and held them at the Pentagon. He negotiated with them all night and when he realised they had a strong foothold he gave in. That was another mistake. The airforce and navy were always strong pro monarchy and if he was older and wiser he would have gotten help from them to oppose the colonels.

 

[brandon]

When the referendum was put on the table a lot of Greeks were waiting for a nod from Karamanlis but he had old scores to settle with Q Frederika and he never spoke until after the results.
Going back to the dictatorship, KC agreed to sign on with them since they had rounded up the entire government and held them at the Pentagon. He negotiated with them all night and when he realised they had a strong foothold he gave in. That was another mistake. The airforce and navy were always strong pro monarchy and if he was older and wiser he would have gotten help from them to oppose the colonels.

I think this is all correct from accounts I was given by a wide variety of well-informed Greeks when I was living there. However I think there are two sides to every story especially in the Karamanlis versus Frederika matter. She was apparently renowned for generally interfering in politics when it was nowhere her prerogative to do so. Additionally, Karamanlis was said to be her original "protegee" and so the falling out between them was extreme when it happened. There are a lot of stories about Frederika which cast doubt on her extreme religious/moral public image, to say the least, but this comes under the heading of gossip so I won't recite it here. Still, it was recited endlessly in Athenian society at the time and still is. I can't help but wonder that when the later Karamanlis as Pres. of the Hellenic Republic made his state visit to Spain in the 90s, that at least part of the reason that Frederika's daughter Queen Sofia seemed so uncomortable and verbally short with Karamanlis was from a sense of deep embarrassment over these common rumors which of course even the media observing them there at a state banquet would also be aware of. I suspect the restoration of the monarchy under more favorable circumstances with the KC at least being allowed back into Greece, might have happened if it wasn't for Frederika and the past. Karamanlis didn't want her back as part of the package, and part of the package Mummy would have certainly been!

 

[Odette]

Brandon, I agree there are more than one account to every story. The sad truth is that Q Frederika did a lot for the Greek people when she returned to Greece after WW2. A lot of people could not stand the "German" and even the tax she helped impose on all imported cars in Greece to support a "dowry" fund for daughters of fallen soldiers, was dubbed as "Frederika's tax" implying she was taking the money for herself. Those days the very few could afford an auto and the country was ruined, so the tax did not burden the masses. She was blamed for hen pecking King Paul and there is no doubt she was a very strong willed woman.
Still, it is true that Karamanlis was a protegee and true there were rumours but as my mother always says.....Unless I was present, I cannot comment with certainty.
A tidbit that surfaced after he was called in Paris to return to Greece in 1974, was Karamanlis's answer..........."What took you so long" Don't forget that he was not exiled, he left the country when he could not win the post of Prime Minister.
He had scores to settle with the Royal Family and he took his revenge.........
When he visited Spain on an official visit Q Sofia was her usual "professional" self.
No one will ever know if the restoration of the Monarchy in Greece would have helped or harmed the country. Politicians are still fghting among themselves and the King at least cannot be blamed this time around.

 

[iakynthi]

The usual controversies between kings and politicians.This story reminds me of the controversy between Venizelos and king Konstantinos I.

 

[Odette]

That controversy was much worse. Hundreds of thousands of Greeks lost their life or were exiled from their lands and had to start again as beggars in the motherland.
It is a very painful time in Greek history and the two versions of the same events are still debated very hotly by both sides.
Those who emigrated to the US ended up building new Churches. In a lot of communities the Pro Venizelos followers would never set foot in a Church where the congregation is identified as Monarchists.
Nowdays it is Pasok vs Nea Demokratia and other political parties who have the pleasure of arguing between themselves........

 

[iakynthi]

Hello,everyone!
I wish we all have a nice winter (that's a greek wish,"kalo himona")!!
I was watching a documentary on TV last night about Konstantinos Karamanlis(a new one,made by Greek journalists) and they tried to explain the relationship between Karamanlis and the Palace at that time.I have to say that it's really complicated and although he made mistakes,this documentary confirmed once again that he was a great politician and man.Personally,I have always admired 2 politicians:Konstantinos Karamanlis and Andreas Papandreou.It's a pity they were in different political parties!
Anyway,it was mentioned that the controversy started when Friderika visited London,but I believe there were other things going on,too.Does anyone have any idea about that visit or anything more?

Oh,and by the way,in some pictures Karamanlis(when he was young) reminds me of Nikolaos.He was sooo handsome...
Has anyone else noticed that?

 

[Odette]

Iakynthi, welcome back. Hope you had a lovely summer.......
I have no clue which documentary you saw since I cannot get any Greek channels here. I do not even know which visit in London they are referring to. There are a lot of documentaries which re write history depending on the political leanings of the writer. Do you have the name of the documentary and the channel it appeared at?

 

[iakynthi]

Thank you,Odette!
It was on Skai TV,which is famous for its great documentaries(basically taken from BBC).I think that we can't judge that from that standpoint,since there wasn't only one person speaking.Many important people that lived at that time took part,like Adamantios Pepelasis(the manager of the National Bank of Greece) or Georgios Rallis(Minister of Education and later Prime Minister).And they all admited their mistakes and spoke objectively.But I believe that something else happened around Friderika's visit to London,something that perhaps is not known yet,not even by historians....those times were really weird,anyway.

 

[BELTRANEJA]

You could say that the monarchy in Greece is not possible, and I answer that it is true but in appearance.
Why?
this is my reasoning.
The King Constantino has not her greek nationality because the government of greece remove it in 1994.
In present, Constantine could recover her nationality , he only would have that say:
he never will demand the throne of Greece because he and her family resignation to their ideology in the monarchy.
He do not have Greek nationality because he refuses to give up their way of thinking.
(The condition of the government of Greece is very cruel.
Everyone are free to think. Nobody can impede to the person "Think")

Why does Constatino have to renounce their ideology, when in Greece there are people who do not believe in the republic?they, too, would have to resign to it.
In conclusion, this is unjust but it can not be changed by Constantine.....
However, if we analyze it, we can find a little hope in the Monarchy greek.
If the monarchy is not possible in Greece, Why is the government of Greece wants that:
Constantine will say that the monarchy is not possible in greece? or , really , is it posible?
I belive:
If the monarchy could be possible in Greece, the government would require to Constatine to relinquish it ... but if IT , the monarchy, is impossible (people do not believe in the Monarchy), the Greek government will not require to Constantine...., because it is impossible.
THE MONARCHY IS POSSIBLE IN GREECE!!!!!

 

[iakynthi]

The monarchy in Greece is impossible.Sorry to disappoint you,my friend!A small minority is not enough...the point is what the majority wants and I think we all know.I don't want to repeat myself.

 

[Odette]

K Constantine never abdicated his rights or his heirs' rights to the throne.
The Greek people by referendum rejected the monarchy by a large majority. (Over 80%). It is not a matter of justice it is the will of the people who decided.
K Constantine spoke about this and confirmed that he accepts the results of the referendum, although he found the process unfair, since he did not have the chance to present his side, before the voters cast their votes.
The Greek government, demanded that the Royal family adopts a surname so they can be considered "regular" Greek citizens. K C refused and adopted a KC da Grecia.
Where it stands right now neither side will blink so the GRF cannot get a Greek citizenship. The average Greeks no longer care for the Royal family and in essence very few would fight to bring them back. The subject is more or less closed.
The GRF's coat of arms says "My power stems from the love of my people" (loosely translated) If the Greeks have no love for the GRF, the Greek Royals have no power. Sad but this is a 34 year old story and the young people feel no closeness to them.