The Monarchy in Greece

[Odette]

Vlaha: Constantine was 27 when the coup happened. How old was King Juan Carlos?
The entire government was in the Pentagon and if Rallis spoke to the King in Tatoi it was with the army listening in. At the time the three colonels appeared at the sentry there was no way of knowing how widespread was the "revolution" and the one certain thing is that if someone is to be blamed it would be the advisors and government officials who should have known and advised the King of the suspicions of a coup. Was he supposed to go ask around if they planned to take the government over or those in charge fell asleep while on guard?
When he came to the US he needed help to overthrow the Junta. I do not believe his statement was ineffective. If fell on deaf ears since the US had its bases in Greece and the Junta to protect their interests in the area.
Yes Karamanlis did not allow him to set foot in Greece during the pre referendum campaign. The only thing he allowed was that televised speach. I do not know if you were in Greece at the time but all right wing and conservatives were expecting Karamanlis to give them an indication and none came. This is the same politician who promised the King he would call him to come back when it was appropriate.
Karamanlis had scores to settle and seized the opportunity.

 

[BELTRANEJA]

The King Constantine was surrounded by Republicans, that they said be monarchical . He was surrounded by traitors. What is a King without the monarchists? nothing

 

[Vlaha Karatsokaros]

I think we should be more respectful to a great politician whom you are implying, that is, Constantine Karamanlis who saved Greece from Communism and coverted it from a poor Balkan state to a member of the EU. And as a Spanish citizen you should be more respectful of calling names a great European statesman like Karamanlis. This may hurt people's feelings like your feelings would be hurt if a foreigner called names the king or the prime minister of Spain.
Greece never had a monarchical stronghold except in the countryside. The upper class and few aristocrats of Greece had historically belonged to the Venizelist Party.

 

[snowflower]

I really can't see how Karamanlis betrayed the King in the sense that they were not exactly allies when the Junta fall. Karamanlis offered a piece of "advice" to the King and it was quite foolish for the King to accept it. Besides it was not that the King was not allowed to return by Karamanlis because no one, not even Karamanlis, could deny him entrance to the country if he tried to return from a legal point, so the King could return no matter what Karamanlis wished.I don't believe that Karamanlis had created a situation with many obstacles which the King could not overcome and thus he was "doomed" from the moment Junta felt to lose his throne - although the King sometimes presents the situtation as such. It was more a matter of misjugdement from the royal family's part at the time becaused they could return and they could campaign inside Greece - with what excuse could they have stopped them? If they tried , the legitimacy of the referendum would be lost in the eyes of the public insisde and outside Greece. Still to tell the truth, I do not believe that monarchy would have survived , I think that republic would have won even marginally because many young people in their 20s voted for the first time and for many of them , the institution of monarchy was irrelevant to their political beliefs , no matter if these beliefs were central, left , right of extreme Of course this is pure suppossition and we will never learn

 

[BELTRANEJA]

I think we should be more respectful to a great politician whom you are implying, that is, Constantine Karamanlis who saved Greece from Communism and coverted it from a poor Balkan state to a member of the EU. And as a Spanish citizen you should be more respectful of calling names a great European statesman like Karamanlis. This may hurt people's feelings like your feelings would be hurt if a foreigner called names the king or the prime minister of Spain.
Greece never had a monarchical stronghold except in the countryside. The upper class and few aristocrats of Greece had historically belonged to the Venizelist Party.

I'm not insulted to Karamanlis. I have said that Constantine was surrounded by traitors, YOU HAS PUT THE NAME. King Paul, Queen federika, Kings of Greece , they also deserve to be treated with respect, because there was a time they did for their country a decent job, now is not recognized by anyone. Where is respect?
.

 

[Odette]

At the time the Junta came to power Karamanlis was in Paris since he had lost a much earlier election and he chose the comfort of Paris rather than staying on in Greece to lead the opposition.
After the war and with the help of the Marshall Plan funds he worked with the Palace to bring peace and limited prosperity to Greece.
Karamanlis was a politician and as such he may be respected by some and reviled by others and we all have the right to have our opinions about him.
When Averof called him in Paris to ask him to return in 1974 the first words were...What took you so long.
The King has never fought the dirty games of the politicians no matter of what stripe they were. Perhaps this is his worst mistake. To believe in the honour of the man who gave him his word.
If he had shown up and he came out one balcony of the Grande Bretagne while Karamanlis was waving at the crowds from another, perhaps he would either have saved his throne or perhaps he would have made more enemies.
At the time the Junta fell, Greece was declared a Democracy by the colonels. The new government had to invite Constantine to come back and reclaim his throne. It was not a race of who gets first in and who moves in the Palace first...

 

[Nikolopoulus]

He would was a great politician but his words were not critical to monarchy, it were insults, inappropriate for a politician.
King George B and King Pavlo fought against communism in Greece before Karamanlis, The King pavlo fought against the communism, he did a good work., they helped and defended lands of northern Greece.

 

[Vlaha Karatsokaros]

There is little doubt that the presence of the monarchy contributed to sucessfully address the threat of the communist menace during the 1946 - 1949 period, that is, the so-called third round of the Civil War. Evidently, the royal family reached the peak of its popularity during that period.

Obviously, there must have been reasons as to how and why this popularity was turned into disapproval and later overt enmity toward the Palace on the part of a great part of the populus.
To this extent, it would also be very intersting to identify the causes as to why the close relationship between Karamanlis and the Palace was turned from 'love affair' into an overt public clash.
As food for thought, I submit respectfully, this could be a good starting point as a first approximation for thoughtful analysis, instead of ventilating emotions [on either side of the aisle] and making incendiary statements.

 

[GRspecialforces]

I think we should be more respectful to a great politician whom you are implying, that is, Constantine Karamanlis who saved Greece from Communism and coverted it from a poor Balkan state to a member of the EU. And as a Spanish citizen you should be more respectful of calling names a great European statesman like Karamanlis. This may hurt people's feelings like your feelings would be hurt if a foreigner called names the king or the prime minister of Spain.
Greece never had a monarchical stronghold except in the countryside. The upper class and few aristocrats of Greece had historically belonged to the Venizelist Party.

you are right. karamanlis brought democracy and then andreas papandreou brought real freedom and all human rights. basically he completed what karamanlis started. people here should study the recent greek history more carefully. and respect is very important. you can't present these politicians like monsters because they didn't want constantine above their heads.

with respect,
gregory

 

[Vlaha Karatsokaros]

I would strenuously dissent with part of the above statement. Papandreou brought on populism and ochlocracy [= mob rule, mobocracy], he completely wiped human rights and justice off the map of Greece. For 30 years now, except for the Simitis [a solid man like Harilaos Trikoupis] period, Greece has been ruled by gangsters and, as Greek passport holder next to my American one, I have the right to make this declaration and I take full legal and ethical responsibility. At any rate, this is not a forum for discussing the politicians.

 

[Hereditary Thane]

Forgive my ignorance, if that is what it is. However, I understand, apart from apathy about the monarch among many Greeks, King Constantine acted unwisely by not challenging the colonels immediately. Kings who prevaricate don't do their people any favours.

 

[Nikolopoulus]

after of passed, we had done it much better, but if It would really had passed us. We would had not known that do.
Sorry for my English

 

[GRspecialforces]

I would strenuously dissent with part of the above statement. Papandreou brought on populism and ochlocracy [= mob rule, mobocracy], he completely wiped human rights and justice off the map of Greece. For 30 years now, except for the Simitis [a solid man like Harilaos Trikoupis] period, Greece has been ruled by gangsters and, as Greek passport holder next to my American one, I have the right to make this declaration and I take full legal and ethical responsibility. At any rate, this is not a forum for discussing the politicians.

wow papandreou did all these things? alone or with help? when you belong to a political party you tend to see things differently and not so objectively. we need more objective voices in this forum in my opinion. nikolopoule, i didn't understand your point. i'm sorry, can you say it differently, please?

with respect,
gregory

 

[Odette]

I would strenuously dissent with part of the above statement. Papandreou brought on populism and ochlocracy [= mob rule, mobocracy], he completely wiped human rights and justice off the map of Greece. For 30 years now, except for the Simitis [a solid man like Harilaos Trikoupis] period, Greece has been ruled by gangsters and, as Greek passport holder next to my American one, I have the right to make this declaration and I take full legal and ethical responsibility. At any rate, this is not a forum for discussing the politicians.

It is amazing to me that everyone should be respectful of the politicians we like but we can freely demonize those we have no respect for. In a previous post it sounded as if you were the voice of reason. Now this post. I know that politics have no room in these forums and rightly so and you also said so above. However politics played a large role in the demise of the Monarchy in Greece and the fabric of those politicians and their friends' and descendants' have wooven the crisis of today.

 

[Vlaha Karatsokaros]

It is amazing to me that everyone should be respectful of the politicians we like but we can freely demonize those we have no respect for. In a previous post it sounded as if you were the voice of reason. Now this post. I know that politics have no room in these forums and rightly so and you also said so above. However politics played a large role in the demise of the Monarchy in Greece and the fabric of those politicians and their friends' and descendants' have wooven the crisis of today.

Andreas Papandreou is an exception. He harmed the Country more than communist Zachariades, for whatever he did is irreversible [by now, all political parties, from left to right, have adopted his populistic and detrimental approach, and converted Greece's state of affairs to a Duarte-Peron-like regime]. In all other cases of politicians, there were good deeds and bad ones. Indeed, everyone has her/his own perspective in interpreting the political events of the last 36 years. But in A. Papandreou's case, every political scientist, in Greece and abroad, every scholar and thinker, agrees that he wreaked havoc. The tragedy is that to the same extent that there are still millions of Argentinians who demand that Evita be canonized (!!!), some 20-30% of Greeks still believe that Andreas Papandreou was a big leader!

But let get back to the issue at hand, the Monarchy in Greece.
Greece, is now a Parliamentary Democracy [Republic, with a powerless President, elected every 5 years by the parliament] and not a Presidential Democracy [like the USA one] that Karamanlis senior had in mind.
Because of that, as we have discussed here before, all power, legislative and executive alike are centered around the prime-minister.
Most political scientists feel strenuously that Greece should become a Presidential Democracy or, at least, one where the legislative and executive powers are distinct.
The point I am trying to make here is that, compared to a ceremonial president [and at least one, Sartzetakis, that is, has embarrassed and ridiculed the country during State visits abroad] I'd rather have a hereditary Head of State, of the Yriny, Sofia or Juan-Carlos kind, but never of the Constantine or Paul junior type.

Finally, for historical reasons, ladies and gentlemen, there is one more issue to be stressed here which I'll submit as food for thought in the form of two rhetorical questions and an actual one!
How come and the Greeks display candidly fondness toward Sofia when and wherever she goes to and in Athens or Greece???
How come and the waiters rush to wait on Yriny's table whenever she visits, say, the Filippou restaurant [a hang-out for intellectuals and left-wingers] in Kolonaki??
And last but not least, how the above can be explained and reconciled vis-a-vis the people's negative attitude toward Constantine?

 

[roimat]

Since 2003, when Constantine started visiting Greece again, there was not even one incident with negative attitude towards Constantine! If you don't know the reality, but you write only for provocation, you'd better don't write at all!!

 

[Vlaha Karatsokaros]

Since 2003, when Constantine started visiting Greece again, there was not even one incident with negative attitude towards Constantine! If you don't know the reality, but you write only for provocation, you'd better don't write at all!!

The Greek people harbour a negative attitude toward Constantine which, after 36 years since the change of polity, is expressed in the form of total indifference. I did not say that people demonstrate against him for they care less. People ignore him which, in fact, is worse than hating someone.
In contrast, despite the lapse of 36 years since the fall of monarchy, people still express positive feelings toward his sisters whenever they show up, wherever they go. For a fact.

King Constantine enjoys the same popularity as the Communist parties together, that is of around 10% of the people, if that!

I do know the Greek reality 100%. Please refrain from being rude to other people, calling people names and telling them what [what not] to do.

 

[Kastalia]

King Constantine enjoys the same popularity as the Communist parties together, that is of around 10% of the people, if that!

i think it's less..seriously 10% seems too much for me
i think he has many fans at The Peloponnese and Pella..

 

[Vlaha Karatsokaros]

You are probably right. Messenia, Laconia and Arcadia were traditionally royalist strongholds but these areas are now deserted. To the same extent, there are royalist strongholds in certain areas in Macedonia as you quote correctly.
In my guesstimate as to the average percentage, I tried to be generous [or over-generous] lest I sounded negatively biased. Perhaps, a better way to present it would be to say that his followers do not exceed 10% of the population.

 

[Kastalia]

I know what you mean.My first thought when i read your message was that if he was supported by 10% of population he would definitely want to form his own political party.I think that he is the type of man capable and ambitious enough for something like that.I mean he drove Greece to Courts so i can easily imagine him living in Greece, leading his political party,trying to influence and being permanently surrounded by monarchists..Of course this is just my thoughts..That's why i can't believe that he is supported by 10% of pop.But of course you can be very right..My work has to do with analysis and statistics area and i know that published percentages are often wrong.

 

[Vlaha Karatsokaros]

I know what you mean.My first thought when i read your message was that if he was supported by 10% of population he would definitely want to form his own political party.I think that he is the type of man capable and ambitious enough for something like that.I mean he drove Greece to Courts so i can easily imagine him living in Greece, leading his political party,trying to influence and being permanently surrounded by monarchists..Of course this is just my thoughts..That's why i can't believe that he is supported by 10% of pop.But of course you can be very right..My work has to do with analysis and statistics area and i know that published percentages are often wrong.

I based my guesstimate on the assumption that Greece is the only country in Europe that, 65 years following the end of WWII, 60 years after the cessation of the Civil War and 20 after the Fall of Communism, continues to have not just a communist party, but a Stalinist one. Considering that this man was the biggest murderer in 20th Century Europe [perhaps of all times], it is only fanatiscism that can explain this phenomenon. Assuming, then, that the concept of the dipole exists not only in nature but also in the political, ideological field, I believe that there is probably an equal or equivalent percentage of the population that believes in anachronism (I use euphemism to avoid characterizations) at the other extreme of the spectrum.
Greece is in big trouble, much bigger than the Asia Minor (Mikrasiatiki) Catastrophe of 1922 and greater than the bankruptcy of the 1890s during the Charilaos Trikoupis administration. This ordeal is the result of unscrupulous spending, social permissiveness and total lawlessness, prompted by the unreasonable demands of the populus in collaboration and conspiracy with demagogue extraordinaire Andreas Papandreou. And certainly, all this mess has nothing to do with the polity, that is, whether the Head of State is hereditary or elected, directly or indirectly by the people. Actually, I would encourage Constantine to get involved with politics, why not. All voices should be heard. If there is room for avowed murderers [ie Stalinist Communists], there should be room for a Royalist Party. Diversity is a good thing for any society.

One thing that can be said safely about the good Greeks, that is, those who can stand to reason and assume responsibility for their own deeds and behaviour, is that, like the American people, they prefer to be in control of their destiny by electing and appointing the representatives of their choice, good or bad as they are.

 

[Kastalia]

Greece is in big trouble, much bigger than the Asia Minor (Mikrasiatiki) Catastrophe of 1922 and greater than the bankruptcy of the 1890s during the Charilaos Trikoupis administration. This ordeal is the result of unscrupulous spending, social permissiveness and total lawlessness, prompted by the unreasonable demands of the populus in collaboration and conspiracy with demagogue extraordinaire Andreas Papandreou.

Sad but true.You made some very good points although i wouldn't encourage his envolvement with politics.This if of course my personal opinion..

 

[Nikolopoulus]

King Constantine will not dedicate to politics. In the Greek political organs there is no room for a member of the Royal Family, but yes there is room to the communists.This is by law. Political dynasties that have ruled Greece over the republic have ruined the country, they must resolve what they have created

 

[GRspecialforces]

vlaha karatsokaros, i think you analyse the situation without having your eyes open, as we say. these are just opinions of an amount of greeks. i see no objectivity. you're accusing a certain politician of too much. did you know that until 1981, before he got elected as prime minister, if for example i went to my balcony and screamed something negative about the government, the next day i would be arrested? people were not even allowed an opinion before he came to govern. half human rights is half the work. and he gave well paid jobs and and and...do you think you are an aristocrat or superior to call the rest greeks "populus"? perhaps that's why you believe they didn't deserve all these "luxuries", eh?

i'll wait for an answer.

gregory

 

[BELTRANEJA]

King Constantine will not dedicate to politics. In the Greek political organs there is no room for a member of the Royal Family, but yes there is room to the communists.This is by law. Political dynasties that have ruled Greece over the republic have ruined the country, they must resolve what they have created

In Crete a journalist asked to him it ,and he said had no intentions of engaging in politics.

 

[Vlaha Karatsokaros]

King Constantine will not dedicate to politics. In the Greek political organs there is no room for a member of the Royal Family, but yes there is room to the communists.This is by law. Political dynasties that have ruled Greece over the republic have ruined the country, they must resolve what they have created

In a Democracy there is room, there should be room for every ideology. Ainsi posέ, I would also encourage, why not, a royalist or monarchy-friendly party. Obviously, what King Constantine and his issue can or will do is their absolute prerogative to decide. My point was/is that cultural and political diversity and polyphony are an asset to any Democracy.

 

[Nikolopoulus]

you read the law and will see you as there is no room for a monarchist political party with this ideals. This possibility does not exist in Greece.First you throw stones at King and then you tell us that there is room for him in Greece,.

 

[Vlaha Karatsokaros]

you read the law and will see you as there is no room for a monarchist political party with this ideals. This possibility does not exist in Greece.First you throw stones at King and then you tell us that there is room for him in Greece,.

I understand it is illegal to attempt to change the polity and, therefore, for a monarchist party to exist under this explicit title. However, like EDA (cover-up for the Communist Party) was created when communism was outlawed in Greece, nothing stops King Constantine, as soon as he assumes a surname, to reclaim his citizenship and create a political party, which, I guess, he could name as he chose but a monarchist party - the implication nonetheless would be be obvious. And if anyone tried to stop him, then rest assured that, this time around, the European Court would be on his side!

 

[David V]

There's next to no chance for the monarchy to ever be restored in Greece- and that's saying something given much stronger monarchist sentiment exists in Serbia and to a degree Georgia, Romania and Bulgaria. However, a reappraisal of its role, positive and negative, is likely to be allowed in light of the current political class' dismal failures- namely, that the monarchy was widely blamed for many of Greece's troubles, yet those who were instrumental in its downfall were laid the foundations for much of its present-day problems..

 

[Nikolopoulus]

You do not compare, I think that in Bulgaria, Romania and Serbia, the monarchical ideology are in the minority, I remember a referendum in Serbia was not many years ago and turned the republic. If the monarchical ideology in these countries are majority. today would have a monarchy in them. They are republics and I do not think that this will be changed.Simeon has served as President of the Republic and he can not impose the monarchy in Bulgaria. What is the difference between Greece and these countries?
The difference is that the Greek Republic is built on the foundations of hatred of the monarchy ... That's the difference, Romanian and Bulgarian Republics have been a response to communism and Serbia is the result of a war ...