The Monarchy in Greece

[iakynthi]

Nothing special,Odette.
I'm looking forward to reading the new Life 'n Style in August.That's the only way we can learn something.The media are busy with the new fire outside Athens.
Jesus,they have burnt the whole country the last 2 years.Maybe,the Miller father won't find anything to buy here...lol

[Odette]

I am sure K Constantine and Q Anne Marie will be in Beijing for 8/8/08 Keep an eye on Life & Style and keep us up to date.
The Anna Maria foundation has supported some of those who lost their houses in Peloponese in the fires........God I hope there are no more fires. Such a destruction.

[branchg]

Constantine uses "Constantine de Grecia" on his Danish passport, which should suffice for the Greek government. But they are not satisfied for political reasons and that is the end of that. But protocol is a formerly reigning King is granted the courtesy of his title and style, but not precedence, the same as any royal person.

The Battenbergs were allowed to use their royal style and title by Queen Victoria and Edward VII (HSH Prince/Princess of Battenberg) until 1917, when George V, had to ask his relatives to reliniquish using their German styles in the UK in response to World War I. As a result, HSH Prince Louis of Battenberg was created Marquess of Milford Haven and HSH Prince Alexander of Battenberg (eldest son of Prince Henry and Princess Beatrice) was created Marquess of Carisbrooke.

[brandon]

That's an interesting thread to me personally because I lived in Greece during some of the Seventies. We were just down the street from the Polytechnic, living across from Green Park, so we saw all the action in '73. Then I was in London when the dictatorship fell some months later and all the headlines in the Evening Standard said "Constantine: I'm Going Home!" But this turned out to be premature, as the new interim PM Costas Karamanlis told him not to return. Perhaps he should have ignored that advice as a Greek citizen and simply returned? Perhaps some people in the party that normally supported the monarchy did not want the king on account of his mother as much as the fact of his having gone along with the dictatorship initially in the eyes of many. On the other hand, I thought it was hugely unfair that the king was not given adequate time or even allowed to campaign for the monarchy in person during the referendum in '74. This was not a level playing field, IMO.

[Odette]

When the Junta fell and the politicians called Karamanlis in Paris to return and head the interim government, Karamalis spoke with K Constantine and asked him to "wait" before returning to Greece. KC waited and that was a mistake. The Shan and King Hussein were urging him to return at that point in Athens but he went along with Karamanlis's suggestion instead. That was a point when things may have changed.
When the referendum was put on the table a lot of Greeks were waiting for a nod from Karamanlis but he had old scores to settle with Q Frederika and he never spoke until after the results.
Going back to the dictatorship, KC agreed to sign on with them since they had rounded up the entire government and held them at the Pentagon. He negotiated with them all night and when he realised they had a strong foothold he gave in. That was another mistake. The airforce and navy were always strong pro monarchy and if he was older and wiser he would have gotten help from them to oppose the colonels.

[brandon]

Originally Posted by Odette

When the referendum was put on the table a lot of Greeks were waiting for a nod from Karamanlis but he had old scores to settle with Q Frederika and he never spoke until after the results.
Going back to the dictatorship, KC agreed to sign on with them since they had rounded up the entire government and held them at the Pentagon. He negotiated with them all night and when he realised they had a strong foothold he gave in. That was another mistake. The airforce and navy were always strong pro monarchy and if he was older and wiser he would have gotten help from them to oppose the colonels.

I think this is all correct from accounts I was given by a wide variety of well-informed Greeks when I was living there. However I think there are two sides to every story especially in the Karamanlis versus Frederika matter. She was apparently renowned for generally interfering in politics when it was nowhere her prerogative to do so. Additionally, Karamanlis was said to be her original "protegee" and so the falling out between them was extreme when it happened. There are a lot of stories about Frederika which cast doubt on her extreme religious/moral public image, to say the least, but this comes under the heading of gossip so I won't recite it here. Still, it was recited endlessly in Athenian society at the time and still is. I can't help but wonder that when the later Karamanlis as Pres. of the Hellenic Republic made his state visit to Spain in the 90s, that at least part of the reason that Frederika's daughter Queen Sofia seemed so uncomortable and verbally short with Karamanlis was from a sense of deep embarrassment over these common rumors which of course even the media observing them there at a state banquet would also be aware of. I suspect the restoration of the monarchy under more favorable circumstances with the KC at least being allowed back into Greece, might have happened if it wasn't for Frederika and the past. Karamanlis didn't want her back as part of the package, and part of the package Mummy would have certainly been!

[Odette]

Brandon, I agree there are more than one account to every story. The sad truth is that Q Frederika did a lot for the Greek people when she returned to Greece after WW2. A lot of people could not stand the "German" and even the tax she helped impose on all imported cars in Greece to support a "dowry" fund for daughters of fallen soldiers, was dubbed as "Frederika's tax" implying she was taking the money for herself. Those days the very few could afford an auto and the country was ruined, so the tax did not burden the masses. She was blamed for hen pecking King Paul and there is no doubt she was a very strong willed woman.
Still, it is true that Karamanlis was a protegee and true there were rumours but as my mother always says.....Unless I was present, I cannot comment with certainty.
A tidbit that surfaced after he was called in Paris to return to Greece in 1974, was Karamanlis's answer..........."What took you so long" Don't forget that he was not exiled, he left the country when he could not win the post of Prime Minister.
He had scores to settle with the Royal Family and he took his revenge.........
When he visited Spain on an official visit Q Sofia was her usual "professional" self.
No one will ever know if the restoration of the Monarchy in Greece would have helped or harmed the country. Politicians are still fghting among themselves and the King at least cannot be blamed this time around.

[iakynthi]

The usual controversies between kings and politicians.This story reminds me of the controversy between Venizelos and king Konstantinos I.

[Odette]

That controversy was much worse. Hundreds of thousands of Greeks lost their life or were exiled from their lands and had to start again as beggars in the motherland.
It is a very painful time in Greek history and the two versions of the same events are still debated very hotly by both sides.
Those who emigrated to the US ended up building new Churches. In a lot of communities the Pro Venizelos followers would never set foot in a Church where the congregation is identified as Monarchists.
Nowdays it is Pasok vs Nea Demokratia and other political parties who have the pleasure of arguing between themselves........

[iakynthi]

Hello,everyone!
I wish we all have a nice winter (that's a greek wish,"kalo himona")!!
I was watching a documentary on TV last night about Konstantinos Karamanlis(a new one,made by Greek journalists) and they tried to explain the relationship between Karamanlis and the Palace at that time.I have to say that it's really complicated and although he made mistakes,this documentary confirmed once again that he was a great politician and man.Personally,I have always admired 2 politicians:Konstantinos Karamanlis and Andreas Papandreou.It's a pity they were in different political parties!
Anyway,it was mentioned that the controversy started when Friderika visited London,but I believe there were other things going on,too.Does anyone have any idea about that visit or anything more?

Oh,and by the way,in some pictures Karamanlis(when he was young) reminds me of Nikolaos.He was sooo handsome...
Has anyone else noticed that?

[Odette]

Iakynthi, welcome back. Hope you had a lovely summer.......
I have no clue which documentary you saw since I cannot get any Greek channels here. I do not even know which visit in London they are referring to. There are a lot of documentaries which re write history depending on the political leanings of the writer. Do you have the name of the documentary and the channel it appeared at?

[iakynthi]

Thank you,Odette!
It was on Skai TV,which is famous for its great documentaries(basically taken from BBC).I think that we can't judge that from that standpoint,since there wasn't only one person speaking.Many important people that lived at that time took part,like Adamantios Pepelasis(the manager of the National Bank of Greece) or Georgios Rallis(Minister of Education and later Prime Minister).And they all admited their mistakes and spoke objectively.But I believe that something else happened around Friderika's visit to London,something that perhaps is not known yet,not even by historians....those times were really weird,anyway.

[BELTRANEJA]

You could say that the monarchy in Greece is not possible, and I answer that it is true but in appearance.
Why?
this is my reasoning.
The King Constantino has not her greek nationality because the government of greece remove it in 1994.
In present, Constantine could recover her nationality , he only would have that say:
he never will demand the throne of Greece because he and her family resignation to their ideology in the monarchy.
He do not have Greek nationality because he refuses to give up their way of thinking.
(The condition of the government of Greece is very cruel.
Everyone are free to think. Nobody can impede to the person "Think")

Why does Constatino have to renounce their ideology, when in Greece there are people who do not believe in the republic?they, too, would have to resign to it.
In conclusion, this is unjust but it can not be changed by Constantine.....
However, if we analyze it, we can find a little hope in the Monarchy greek.
If the monarchy is not possible in Greece, Why is the government of Greece wants that:
Constantine will say that the monarchy is not possible in greece? or , really , is it posible?
I belive:
If the monarchy could be possible in Greece, the government would require to Constatine to relinquish it ... but if IT , the monarchy, is impossible (people do not believe in the Monarchy), the Greek government will not require to Constantine...., because it is impossible.
THE MONARCHY IS POSSIBLE IN GREECE!!!!!

[iakynthi]

The monarchy in Greece is impossible.Sorry to disappoint you,my friend!A small minority is not enough...the point is what the majority wants and I think we all know.I don't want to repeat myself.

[Odette]

K Constantine never abdicated his rights or his heirs' rights to the throne.
The Greek people by referendum rejected the monarchy by a large majority. (Over 80%). It is not a matter of justice it is the will of the people who decided.
K Constantine spoke about this and confirmed that he accepts the results of the referendum, although he found the process unfair, since he did not have the chance to present his side, before the voters cast their votes.
The Greek government, demanded that the Royal family adopts a surname so they can be considered "regular" Greek citizens. K C refused and adopted a KC da Grecia.
Where it stands right now neither side will blink so the GRF cannot get a Greek citizenship. The average Greeks no longer care for the Royal family and in essence very few would fight to bring them back. The subject is more or less closed.
The GRF's coat of arms says "My power stems from the love of my people" (loosely translated) If the Greeks have no love for the GRF, the Greek Royals have no power. Sad but this is a 34 year old story and the young people feel no closeness to them.

[BELTRANEJA]

It is true, the condition for that he recover her nationality is renounce her family name..
but, the royal decree of Venicilenos says:

the from king must relinquish their family name and publicly renounce a claim against Greek state ( it is relinquish her ideology)and he pledges the Republican Constitution.

In the parliament of Greece, there are minority political parties, they represent ideologies that the people in their majority do not want.. but a 10%, 20% of population vote to them.
They have representation in parliament and in smaller division(villages),that they govern .
The ideologies of the majority parties in Greece, they started being small ideologies, and eventually they are,now great ideologies.

I think that now the ideology monarchy is small, but it can be in future ideology majority.

[iakynthi]

I believe that the GRF's popularity in Greece won't grow.It's not only that the new generations don't care,but that most of them don't even know them.Nothing is written for them in the History books and every reference to them by the media or by politicians is avoided.The Democratic leaders have done everything so far in order to estrange this family from the Greeks and I believe that Constantine deserved it:when you are a King,you don't cooperate with dictators and leave your people to be exiled or tortured or loose even the basic human rights,because that is what really happened for 7(!) years (1967-1974).How can we ever forgive this?Or the fact that half Cyprus was lost?Greek people paid with their blood...and we're talking about lots of blood...Because when you are a king,you are the 1st to stand up and fight,and you fight well for your country's and peoples' freedom,for a better life,for dignity and justice.The Greek history is full of great Kings (who BTW happened to be Greek...),like Leonidas,Themistocles,Great Alexander,Iraklios,Constantine XI Palaiologos etc.You don't take your wife and kids and run away every time you get in trouble (and can someone tell me why Rome or London are considered places for exile?Cause I would looove to be exiled as well!!).Conclusion:since you haven't done the above as a King,then you don't deserve a place to reign...not even a corner on this planet.

[Odette]

Iakynthi, KC ascended on the throne April 64 and left Greece December 13, 1967
Whatever happenned after that cannot be blamed on him. The Colonels ruled Greece till July 74 and Cyprus was invaded the same month.
All the old ancient brave Kings of Greece ruled centuries ago. In modern times and since the independence we had 7 Kings. We send to exile 3 of them, killed one and another was bit by a monkey and died........The other two must have either been realy really good or we were busy with other pursuits and we did not notice them........

[iakynthi]

I've found a 5 minute video on YouTube with a Constantine's interview at their home in London.He said many things about his past,but the most important for me was his answer when the journalist asked him if he feels ok knowing that he might die without being a King again:"What does it matter?"
Well,I hope he wasn't lying.I have stated from the beggining that I'm a Republican,so don't get me wrong.It also came as a relief to me when Pavlos stated that he had moved on.I believe that this is the best for everyone and most important,for our country.