The Monarchy in Greece

[Daytona]

Greek laws allow people to choose their last names but there are restrictions.So the last name he has chosen is against the laws.As simple as that even if you cant accept it.You may call him as you like but remember he has lost his power and hence all the titles and privileges that go with it.He is no king or majesty,he is a simple civilian like any other in the EU and is equal to any other man.

[Philippe Egalite']

It is not that I am trying to reconcile the opinions of you both, but I feel compelled to be fair.

First of all, what Australia, Canada and New Zealand do or do not is the absolute prerrogative of the people of the respective countries, and is and should be deeply respected by outsiders. All three of these countries have an excellent system of government, but in now way does it mean that there are no other equally effective types of polity. Back to our topic now.

What, perhaps, was not fully understood here is the diplomatic mastery that Denmark employed to accept the de Grecia as a surname, which is exactly that in Danish de Grecia is meaningless. Indeed, it was handled ingeniously, so that Greece could take no offense at Denmark's action for, no matter what HM Queen Margrethe wants, she or her government would never offend a fellow member of the EU.
That the former king of the Hellenes is, as of 2001, a Danish citizen was not intended at criticizing or even critiquing him, but to answer the discussant's (Ilias of John) argument that king Constantine is stateless. The former king of the Hellenes is not a Greek citizen at this juncture, but not stateless.

The Hellenic Constitution doesn't talk specifically about surnames, but commands isonomy for all, which means that what applies to me [all] applies to all [me], be it rights, duties etc. By extrapolation, and because all Hellenes must have a surname, that is, a legal identity by which they get recognized by the state and their fellow citizens, any prospective Greek citizen must declare a surname or must devise one if he doesn't have any. And the surname he devises shall be his for life and he cannot claim a posteriori that he has no name for this would constitute perjury since upon becoming citizens people give an oath. To be complete though, Hellenes who have inherited surnames that aren't tasteful or have a derrogatory meaning are allowed to apply formally for surname change [for example, I know of a getleman with the last name of Κουλόγιωργας (which means George the useless), who changed it to Καλόγιωργας (George the good)].

As Ilias of John indicated correctly, the former king of Greece has no surname or so he declares and this is exactly the crux of the problem the Hellenic Republic has with former king Constantine:
1) that he refuses to devise and adopt genuinely a surname
and
2)that he refuses to acknowledge that he has a surname even after becoming a Danish citizen (2001), when he made the implicit declaration (in most countries by oath) that his surname is de Grecia.
All these make it crystal-clear that former king Constantine considers himself different and different he may be in the eyes of people and countries that allow that (Denmark, for instance, recognizes him both as a citizen and a nobleman, albeit in a non-substantive fasion). However, in a manner identical to that of the United States of America, the Hellenic Constitution has no room for differences of this type. Mr. Ronald Reagan, for instance, was accorded knighthood by the Queen, but neither he nor anyone else ever dared to use Sir Ronald Reagan.

In a way, former king Constantine has created a precedent for it would be difficult to argue that the de Grecia was a surname of convenience, since this could or would technically be an insult to Denmark and could place at risk his credibility and honor. For all intents and purposes, therefore, his surname vis-a-vis the EU is de Grecia. Therefore, one would be inclined to believe that the Hellenic Republic would have no problem with transliteration to Ντε Γκρέτσια, since it is meaningless in Greek but, under no circumstances, would it allow translation to Της Ελλάδος. Translation would be in defiance of international precedent. When people emigrate to foreign-speaking countries, their surnames get transliterated and not translated.

One could guess though that, apart from the surname, two more matters, would be, ipso facto, required or that his Hellenic citizenship would be conditional on:
1) His declaring internationally and particularly to various European or other Courts that what is written in his passport is his genuine surname and that he indeed has a surname (the moment he becomes a Greek citizen) and
2) His not being permitted in public, either within or outside Greece, to allow himself to be addressed as anything other than Κύριος Κωνσταντίνος Ντε Γκρέτσια [Monsieur Constantine de Grecia]. Obviously, all these would apply to former queen Anne-Marie, should she want to become a Greek citizen, who would become Kυρία Αννα-Μαρία Ντε Γκρέτσια [Madame Anne-Marie de Grecia].

However, it is almost certain that former king Constantine is unwilling to live with that, which makes it highly unlikely that he will ever become a Greek citizen again. In the end though, there is no issue, because he can live permanently in Greece by virtue of the fact that he is a European citizen. If I were in his place, I wouldn't be willing to give up so much to gain so little.
If, on the other hand, becoming a Greek citizen again carries a lot of symbolism to him, he may surprise us all.

[Philippe Egalite']

Originally Posted by Splodger

I wasnt actualy saying that Greece should become a monarchy just so Pavlos can have five minutes to prove him self on the throne. As I said pages ago, it doesnt matter whether Greece is a Republic, Monarchy, Theocracy or anyother form of government, however secure and stable it may be... Constantine will always be the man who was King, and is the man who would be King had the Monarchy not been abolished, just as the Dukes of Bavaria have some complex Jacobian Claim on the British Crown, of which is even more unlikely to ever happen, however if you are so inclined they are the person to whom you turn.

Nobody could disagree with the above.

Originally Posted by Splodger

Whether you agree or disagree with monarchys in general or just in Greece, there are those who are either in favour of its return or simply just look upon the Royal Family with respect. In the same way if your Catholic your focal point is the Pope, and just beacuse he pays a state visit to your country does not mean there is going to be a Catholic forced take over. It doesnt matter if Greece is doing well or not, or if you like or hate the former King, there are people who look towards him for what ever small bit of happiness it brings them.

Nobody could disagree with these thoughts either.

Originally Posted by Splodger

As such I personaly dont see a problem with someone calling them selves Glucksberg, De Greece, Oldenberg or Mr Athens, in supporting charities and promting Greek interests, and generaly doing good works as a private citizen.

It is suprising that you, a Briton, say that. Your country, and in particular the British Peerage, has a strict set of rules as to names, rank, title and style of nobility, knights etc.
For instance, if, say, Mr. Peter Phillips visited Greece and someone called him prince Peter or referred to him as HRH or addressed him as Your Royal Highness, I am sure, you would all have a fit and your Ambassador would have made representations so as to prevent similar events from recurring.
For instance, when the minor princely family of Battenberg moved to England, they were stripped of their princely rank and title, their name of provenance was switched to Mounbatten and only the senior male became 1st Marquess of Milford Haven while the rest of the family became commoners and everybody, whether a British a non-British subject had to observe the rules set forth by king George V.
For instance, when princess Katherine of Greece married major Brandram in 1947, moved with him to England and applied for British citizenship, she had to resign, and she was stripped of, her rank, title and style and, in the end, it was out of king George VI's decision that she was given the courtesy status of a duke's daughter which permitted her to be styled Lady Brandram. Could you imagine the reaction should someone dare address British subject Mr. Paul Brandram, her son, as HRH prince Paul of Greece??? I am sure the British Peerage would have a fit. Imagine The Queen's reaction had Lady Brandram been calling herself princess Katherine, while in England and a British subject??

In England alone, there have been volumes written about the appropriateness of names of the Royal House and their surname. People may argue for hours that Prince Philip's name is neither Mountbatten (anglicized Battenberg) nor Battenberg for it is his mother's name and that it is Glucksburg since he is the son of prince Andrew of Greece. Therefore, precedent shows that names matter and are important indeed.
All the above, therefore, show implicitly and explicitly that form can be in certain settings as important as substance or even more so.

Finally, as analyzed in detail in the preceding post, the issue with former king Constantine is that he declares that he has no name and, apparently,he treats the surname de Grecia accorded to him by Denmark, at his request, as a vehicle of convenience and not as his genuine surname.

Originally Posted by Splodger

Now if he started causing trouble and inciting his small or large number of followers into storming the Government Offices and Gunning the down the Oposition in the Street in an attempt to win back his throne then I would understand their reluctance to let him in, but I dont really think it is his style.

Even if this was their intention (and it isn't) there are no more Greeks who are passionate enough, one way or another vis-a-vis former King Constantine, to resort to revolt in his behalf. Members of the former royal family walk in and out of Greece constantly, particularly the former king and his wife and son Nikolaos and they are most welcome to do so. The latter attends parties, society functions etc. Former king Constantine goes around alone and talks to people whether in the streets, cafe's, the bar of Grande Bretagne, where he stays usually, and so on.

Originally Posted by Splodger

The people will do what they want and will have the Government they want whether it is what anyone here wishes it could be. However one day, Pavlos will inherit the claiment for this non-existant throne and be expected to continue 'the good greek works.' What i was saying is that he deserves a chance to do this and show he does care for Greece like any other Greek Citizen which is very hard for someone to do when they are not aloud in the country and people just pick holes in you. If he turns out to be nothing more than an arrogant royal who wants nothing more than a crown and status we can then all say "he had his chance to be a good man and he blew it and thank goodness they didnt make him King."

The son of former king Constantine is having a good life in London and New York and good for him. The Greek people are not interested in him in his capacity as son of former king Constantine and don't expect anything from him in this regard. However, he is likeable and most wlecome in Greece 365 days a year including Mrs. Miller and their children.

Originally Posted by Splodger

As for what Constantine or Pavlos call their Family I only have one thought. (please note I am not comparing the two for how much work they did)How many people know Mother Teresa of Calcutters Surname? Did her name have any relevance to the good she tried to do?

The late ethnarch and major European statesman Eleftherios Venizelos said "The less people are involved with our country's affairs, the better it is for Greece"!

[ilias of john]

Phillip,
His Majesty and the Greek people have given up so much for very little.
King Konstantine will most likely surprise us all as to his Greek Nationality( I am certain no one now denies he is a Greek)
And finally,
you still haven't answered the question as to who would have arrested the Colonels? :(
Daytona,
You mention, He is no King or Majesty, just a normal civilian like every other citizen in the E.U.
Last time I chequed the E.U had many nation,( ie U.K Spain Belgium,Netherlands, Norway, Holland etc etc)where their Head of State was a little more different than a normal citizen.
How come you two blokes use French MONIKERS?

[Philippe Egalite']

You mistook my nickname. Philippe Egalite' comes from Louis Philippe Joseph II, duc d' Orleans, called Philippe Egalite', who became a fervent supporter of the French Revolution.

[ilias of john]

Phillipo,
a couple of quick corrections,
Letters patent are created by H.M QE2 of the U.k which grant titles and styles of nobility to her relatives and descendants.She has not granted any title of Prince to Peter or Zara Phillips and as such are not entitled to use them.If they were to even in the U.K they would be charged with a Very serious criminal offense.Your point on them using Titles of Nobility in Greece is mute.
The German Battenburg family were not stripped of their German titles when they moved to the U.K. They voluntarilly surended them during the First World War after they had been living in the Uk for many years,I think about 120 all up.That is when King George cganged the Family surname from Saxe Coburg Gotha to Windsor, remember?
Princess Katherine upon becoming Lady Bradman did not have to apply for British citizenship because she was directly related to that Hanoverian Princess that the British parliament said ll successors must be related to(what was her name again?_)
And you are quite right about the Late Ethnarch Venizelos,wasnt he that seccessionist who tried to set up a rival Greek goverment in Thessaloniki?I think today we would call it a revolution,junta words to that effect?
P.s who would have arrested the Colonels?

[Philippe Egalite']

Originally Posted by ilias of john

His Majesty and the Greek people have given up so much for very little.

The Greeks never give up anything. On the contrary they have always fought for independence, then for expansion [Thessaly, Crete, Epirus, Macedonia, Thrace, Samos and the Dodecanese Archipelago] of the country's boundaries and last but not least against fascism and later communism, and all that at the cost of millions of lives. In WWII alone, Greece lost 2 milion souls.

With respect to king Constantine, you may be right or, at least, this is what most Greeks hold against him, that is, that he gave up so much (democracy, 1967) for very little (to save his own life).

[ilias of john]

quote
With respect to king Constantine, you may be right or, at least, this is what most Greeks hold against him, that is, that he gave up so much (democracy, 1967) for very little (to save his own life).Today 07:51 PM
Who would have helped him to arrest the Colonels, Phillip?
He tried on his own, remember?
As for independence and expansion, you forgot to mention the most important one of all.The asia minor campaign, and of course remember that Churchill said
"that from now on no longer will we say that the Greeks fight like hero's.From now on we shall say that hero's fight like Greeks".1941
The Greeks didn't conquer the Dodecanese, we got given them at the end of ww2.We fought for liberty pure and simple.
If memory serves me was it not H.M GEORGE 1 who ruled Greece for 50 odd years and doubled the land size of your nation and tripled the size of the population? And was it not that Venizelos who created an independant Cretan republic, and when that Failed and FINALLY joined Greece he scurried off to Greece, entered National politics there and even tried to destroy that Nation by creating a seccessionist regime?

[Daytona]

Ilias,why is it so difficult for you to understand and accept that the Greek constitution doesnt regognize any titles and that all Greek citizens are equal?Equality and isonomy for all.Former king Constantine was a head of the state and when Greek people decided that monarchy should be abolished,he lost all priveleges and titles.Under Greek laws and constitution he is not anything more or less than any other Greek who have the same rights and obligations to greek laws and constitution.All Greeks in many circumstances of our life,for instance the army,give oath to uphold the greek laws and constitution which is the greek republic.If he wants a surname he should acknowledge the current constitution.ie recognize the referendum which abolished the monarchy.I am curious why someone from the other side of the planet is so persisant on monarchy in Greece without knowing or understanding why Greeks abolished this anachronistic regime.Believe me, Greece is way better off today under the current regime.Now,if you enjoy calling him a king or majesty or bow before him this is your prerogative.Me,on the other hand iam free.

I am a great admirer of the French civilasation and of the Revolution Francaise which actually set the foundations and the ideologic basis for the Greek revolution.

[Philippe Egalite']

The Hellenic Republic does not recognize titles. In this respect, it goes further and farther than even the United States of America. In the USA, there is one category of people who are addressed differently, the professional groups of physicians and dentists (and infrequently those who hold PhD degrees). Indeed, all MDs and DDSs, in the USA, are referred to and addressed as Dr something.
In Greece, all MDs are referred to and addressed as Mr/Mrs something.

[ilias of john]

Daytona,..
I do not find it difficult at all to understand what the Greek constituition says nor do I find it difficult to accept that it does not recognize any titles of nobility. What I do not accept is the fact that it was a false referendum that brought this constituition in to place and all it did was take power from one and give it to another that is not appointed by the Greek population but by a select few who are primarilly interested in feathering their own nests.
In terms of being from the other side of the planet my friend you will undoubtably know that the Greek diaspora is far flung(notice my name).
I know full well the events of '74 I still remember them.
The French revolution is still developing, they have only had 4 republics since the last Emperor(have you heard the theory that the Buonaparte's were of Maniot descent?).
Every change has brought more instability and uncertainty and I read just recently that their new President wants to change the constituition(again) so that the Prime Ministers powers dont conflict with his own!
Kalinihta!

[Daytona]

Firstly,it is nice knowing you are Greek.Secondly,no one questions the referendum,only the former king and his followers.Even today the former king has limited followers.Do you know why Constantine lost power?I cant understand your point of vue regarding "took power and gave it to another that is not appointed by the Greek people".You obviously mean the generals government but you tend to forget that some military men took advantage of the political instability,created by the palace,that the former king actually inaugurated the illegal government,that the palace prior to that was constantly interferring with politics when objecting with the decisions of the pm and ministers.The monarchy in Greece will never be restored.Kalimera.

[lucien]

Originally Posted by Daytona

Secondly,no one questions the referendum,only the former king and his followers.Kalimera.

Perhaps you missed that for decades the Greeks have been brainwashed on the RF,not a chance was missed,or created,to villify the King and his family.
All of Europe questioned that so-called and fraudulous referendum,in fact,it doesn't even deserve that qualification.The subsequent greek governments went out of their way to block out anything related to the RF.Even up to now,if they can.But the Euro's from Brussels lurked and pockets were to be filled,and the coniving & corruption prevails,so they gave/give in,bit by bit,on the rights of the RF that is,acknowledging they existed and allow them back in the country took the EU to accomplish,
all other aforementioned florishes still like the sky is the limit and has become such a "common" matter,they fail to see it as it is.Kalispera.

[Daytona]

The referendum is the ultimate democracy,people choose and decide and that is what happened in our case.Do you know that 90% of the Greek people voted against?The former king questions the result because he wasnt in Greece at that time and he couldnt be certain that any fraududelences were made.It is quite reasonable when loosing your power but i think he disregards the will of the majority.The referendum took place after the democracy was restored in Greece so the situation was altered in terms of freedom of speech,freedoms that were limited or none during the coup d eta.In which Europe are you referring to that questioned the referendum?Only the monarchies.If a referendum took place today under the supervision of the EU,what would the outcome be you think.Never in the Greek history were the greek people pro monarchs,in fact other times the monarchy was abolished.The royal regime is anachronistic.Kalispera.

[ilias of john]

Louis-Philippe of France - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

[ilias of john]

It seems that when the Greek Royal Dynasty was created HM King George I was elected unanimously by the Entire Greek Parliament and the decision was ratified by not only all politicians, generals, Bishops, Nomarchs of States within Greece but even the Head of the small Greek postal service.
Now that to me is democracy!

I got this of H.M'S web site

The Greek Royal Family - Historical Archive

[Warren]

All posts discussing Greek politics, bombings and economics have been removed.

Warren
Greek Forums moderator