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  #301  
Old 12-27-2015, 01:08 PM
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Originally Posted by Duc_et_Pair View Post
With the note that Stéphanie de Lannoy comes from an old and prestigious family. It is not only about titles: one has to look beyond. Already in the 14th C the De Lannoys belonged to the highest nobility and 16 of them have become a Knight in the Order of the Golden Fleece. Amongst the royal families one has to look hard for a royal dynasty with the same number of Knights...

Emperor Charles V made them Reichsgrafen in 1526. As the De Lannoys have received their Letters Patent from the Emperor himself, they belong to what is called the "gefürstete Grafen" and so considered to belong to the Hochadel. Stéphanie is not "just" the Countess-next-door...

The Nassau - De Lannoy wedding in 2012 was not unique as already in 1551 Willem I of Nassau, Prince of Orange married Anne d'Egmont and so became a son-in-law to Françoise de Lannoy, at that moment probably the wealthiest lady in the whole of the Low Countries being the Dowager Countess d'Egmont.

I never said Stephanie was anything less than a member of the high nobility but as highly impressive as her antecedentia is just a few generations ago it would still not had been enough to marry the heir of any of the present European thrones apart from Liechtenstein and Monaco. Concerning the latter I'm sure it would be the Lannoys that would have had more to object to such a match than the troublesome Grimaldis


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  #302  
Old 12-27-2015, 01:50 PM
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  #303  
Old 12-27-2015, 03:23 PM
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I think part of the reason the monarchy will struggle to be restored in Greece is that the current 'heir', Prince Pavlos shows little interest in returning as King and, IMO, little interest in Greece as a country. This isn't a problem, he just seems to have accepted that he needs to move on and look to the future for himself and his children.
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  #304  
Old 07-18-2016, 11:53 PM
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Originally Posted by iakynthi View Post
Interesting points of view,but perhaps I should remind you another fact:the assassination of Grigoris Lambrakis ordered by Frederika...Shocking,huh?Perhaps Constantine "payed" back the sins of his ancestors as well.It's known that this RF's biggest intention and achievement-unfortunately-was to damage democracy in any possible way...
I know this quote is old but I feel compelled to explain to readers what this particular comment is about ...

Grigorios Lambrakis (1912-1963), a professor of gynaecology and obstetrics at Athens University, was a member of the Democratic Left party (EDA) who were regarded (wrongly) by many as a front for the then banned Communist party, and one of Greece's most prominent 'peace' i.e. anti nuclear anti NATO activists.

Lambrakis was one of the more prominent critics of the then Karamanlis government, especially following the disputed election of 1961 - there were widespread claims of electoral fraud and many in both the Centre Union and the EDA claimed that they had been cheated of a rightful victory. He enjoyed a wide following amongst the young and the newly urban population of Greece in the early 1960s who resented the curbs on civil and political freedom, along with the moral puritanism, of the period.

Lambrakis was killed in Thessaloniki in 1963 (?) while taking part in a nuclear disarmament rally, when he was hit by a scooter type vehicle and was seen being bludgeoned to death as well. the men who did it were found to be members of a right wing paramilitary group with links to the sitting government.* Because of this, there have been persistent accusations that his death was the result of a government conspiracy (an idea fuelled and given credence by Costa-Garvas' 1969(?) film Z which is based on the case - Oliver Stone's JFK was based heavily on it), despite the fact that two official investigations, one in the 1960s and a second in the late 1980s under PASOK that concluded that the culprits acted alone.

The accusation that the Court and in particular Frederika was responsible seems to have started with Karamanlis himself who was the initial target of the allegations and who pointed the finger at the king and queen to save his own hide - George Papandreou was really raking him over the coals about this and this was the main factor in Karamanlis' decision to quit Greek politics. I actually don't know how precisely the RF reacted but the fact that King Paul offered to fund the education of Lambrakis's children (his widow refused the offer acc. to No Ordinary Crown), I think says a lot. I don't know why they did not attend the funeral but the fact that it was one of the largest of the period, had the air of a protest rally, and right wing politicians who showed up were booed by the crowd may explain why.

The aftermath of the killing lead to the collapse of the government, the eventual self imposed exile of Karamanlis from Greece for the next eleven years and the destabilisation of the government leading to the dictatorship of the colonels and the erosion of the GRF's popularity and prestige in the eyes of many due to the accusations of the kind voiced by Iakynthi above.

Responsible scholars of modern Greece (Woodhouse, Clogg, Veremis et al) refute the accusations of there being some kind of government conspiracy behind Lambrakis's death, along with the allegations of royal involvement.


* The parallel to this was Andreas Papandreou and PASOK's links to leftist terror groups like November 17 in the 1980s and 1990s - not active approval let alone complicity but a reluctance to curb for a number of historical reasons, namely that these groups were previously allies and it would have not sat well with the party rank and file as well as the party base to go after them.
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  #305  
Old 07-19-2016, 06:52 PM
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EDA was not the Communist Party because it was forbidden, but it was identified with the Communists(extreme left), George Papandreou refused to rule with parliamentary support of EDA, because he considered communist. Lambrakis was a controversial man, who always look for his political manifestations , media coverage. He went to Thessaloniki knowing that had extreme-right group. In election campaign , it was used against Karamanlis.

I have no sympathy for Karamanlis, I think he believed that the monarchy was owned of his political party . He mistook the concept of monarchy. But I think it was unfair used against Karamanlis, the assassination of Lambrakis.

This was the subject of a public trial, 1966, where it was demonstrated that it was an individual act, not existed no plot or anything, two members of a group of extreme right against a leader who many qualified extreme-left or left.

Mr. Karamanlis left Greece because he was a bad loser, and had lost all credibility and popularity, cases of corruption like electoral fraud... When he saw that was not going to win the election began to go to Palace to ask the king Paul to support him in the election campaign with arguments that George Papandreou was old and did not understand the Greek economy(these arguments of Karamanlis to King pavlos are collected in the autobiography of King Constantine, and political behavior towards the monarchy ...)....., but The king said, not. When he saw that the king did not supported him was when he started a campaign against the monarchy.When Karamanlis saw that the king would not veto George Papandreou abandoned Greece.

George had won the elections, King Paul proposed him as primer minister, he got his first parliamentary majority with the support of EDA, George rejection it.
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  #306  
Old 07-19-2016, 07:14 PM
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Greece went through an existential crisis in recent years. During this crisis the state of Greece shook on its foundations. Even in these hefty circumstances, there was no any call for a monarchy, to replace the rotten structure. So Pavlos will have understood it: if even in a situation that the nation has come to a complete standstill and still there is no call for a monarchy, not even the smallest monarchist party in sight, there is no any future for him and he has to go on and find his own living.
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  #307  
Old 07-19-2016, 07:52 PM
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For me Lambrikis is a cautionary tale i.e. if you go looking for trouble, sooner or later you will find it. Lambrikis himself wasn't that important alive - he was good at big public gestures but not so good on the actual nuts and bolts of being an MP - in that sense he was more useful as a dead martyr than as a living liability to the Greek left.

Indeed, on the logic many have used to pin Lambrikis's nasty end on Freddy, I could make an equally good case that the real culprit behind the sticky end of Lambrikis was... Margaret Papandreou (!) M-Pap, like Freddy, was a foreigner from a country that had not always behaved the best towards Greece, Lambrikis was a rival to her husband for leadership of Greece's "progressive forces" (her words), and instigating his death would not only remove an inconvenient rival for her husbands (and her own) prominence, but it would also be a good way to discredit their rivals. It was the perfect crime !!!!

Ok I made the above up, I don't think M-Pap was capable of that - she has always seemed very upright to me so that's why the talk of her running a slush fund is bogus as well. BUT such a line of thought shows just how flimsy the allegations against Frederika really are...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Duc_et_Pair View Post
Greece went through an existential crisis in recent years. During this crisis the state of Greece shook on its foundations. Even in these hefty circumstances, there was no any call for a monarchy, to replace the rotten structure. So Pavlos will have understood it: if even in a situation that the nation has come to a complete standstill and still there is no call for a monarchy, not even the smallest monarchist party in sight, there is no any future for him and he has to go on and find his own living.
Most talk about reinstating the monarchy has nothing to do with Greece's constitutional arrangements - its about vindicating Constantine. Monarchist parties in Greece are often covers for the Far Right which is the same as the rest of Europe - Golden Dawn have been trying to co-opt them for some time.

Quote:
Originally Posted by stef View Post
I have no sympathy for Karamanlis, I think he believed that the monarchy was owned of his political party . He mistook the concept of monarchy. But I think it was unfair used against Karamanlis, the assassination of Lambrakis.

Mr. Karamanlis left Greece because he was a bad loser, and had lost all credibility and popularity, cases of corruption like electoral fraud... When he saw that was not going to win the election began to go to Palace to ask the king Paul to support him in the election campaign with arguments that George Papandreou was old and did not understand the Greek economy(these arguments of Karamanlis to King pavlos are collected in the autobiography of King Constantine, and political behavior towards the monarchy ...)....., but The king said, not. When he saw that the king did not supported him was when he started a campaign against the monarchy.When Karamanlis saw that the king would not veto George Papandreou abandoned Greece.
.
Stan Draenos's bio of A-Pap says much the same about Karamanlis's megalomania and a number of contemporary accounts (M-Pap, A-Pap, Helen Vlachos) all go into some detail about the 1961 election but conflate the palaces role with that of the Radical Union. The traditional view is that Karamanlis became alienated from the Crown doe to poor treatment and 'interference' and that his decision to hold the 1974 referendum was based on a desire to put Greece's form of government on a stronger popular basis - that of course never tallied with the fact that he never held a referendum for something with far greater consequences - Greece's entry into the EEC in 1981.

As for the claims that he was incorruptible - I have to ask, given that he was born poor and government did not pay much, where did his wealth come from? One of the main criticisms he had of the crown was over money and lifestyle, but he seems to have been if anything much more lavish in terms of lifestyle and taste than the RF, certainly more on the Francophile/jet set end of the spectrum than many like to let on. I know that his wife Amalia came from a rich family and that he might have inherited money from Lambros Eutaxis (K was believed to be the long time lover of the old man ), and that he was not above accepting the generosity of Greece's shipping magnates - He nationalised Olympic airways as a favour to Aristotle Onassis according to Nicholas Gage in Greek Fire so I suppose its only a bribe if you actually go though your end of the bargain...


His habit of spitting the dummy over losing happened again in the 1980s when he did not have enough support to continue being president - a number of contemporaries did comment on the irony of Karamanlis refusal to support the King and then loosing out under similar circumstances. History sometimes can be most hilarious.
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  #308  
Old 10-30-2016, 10:46 PM
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Queen Anne-Marie's personal style of "queenship"?

I'm wondering, was Queen Anne-Marie able to establish a personal style of "queenship" during her relatively short time in Greece? And if so, what was it like? (As an example of what I'm talking about, substitute "First Ladyship" for "queenship": in the U.S., for instance, Jacqueline Kennedy's style of "First Ladyship" was quite different from that of Lady Bird Johnson's.)

I do realize that between her wedding in 1964 and the failure of the counter-coup in late 1967, she had two pregnancies close together, so perhaps she wasn't able to put much of a personal imprint on the role of being queen.

Given the age/personality/temperament differences between Queen Anne-Marie and her mother in law, Queen Frederica, I find it fascinating to speculate on just what her personal style might have been, had politics not intervened.

Do any of the members here have any insights they'd like to contribute?
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  #309  
Old 10-31-2016, 07:14 AM
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Originally Posted by William-Kentucky View Post
I'm wondering, was Queen Anne-Marie able to establish a personal style of "queenship" during her relatively short time in Greece? And if so, what was it like? (As an example of what I'm talking about, substitute "First Ladyship" for "queenship": in the U.S., for instance, Jacqueline Kennedy's style of "First Ladyship" was quite different from that of Lady Bird Johnson's.)

I do realize that between her wedding in 1964 and the failure of the counter-coup in late 1967, she had two pregnancies close together, so perhaps she wasn't able to put much of a personal imprint on the role of being queen.

Given the age/personality/temperament differences between Queen Anne-Marie and her mother in law, Queen Frederica, I find it fascinating to speculate on just what her personal style might have been, had politics not intervened.

Do any of the members here have any insights they'd like to contribute?
I think you might need to look as AM's life and activities in exile to get a picture of what things may have been like.

Given that you have mentioned the subject of 'first-ladyship', in this period a rivalry between the office of queen and wife of the PM began to emerge. Amalia Karamanlis was often referred to as 'first lady' in the press, something neither she nor her husband discouraged. Margaret Papandreou and Dimitira Liani often allowed similar views of themselves to circulate, despite they were merely the wives of the Prime Minister and not the President, let alone Queen.

In a monarchy this is a fiction. The spouse of the first minister has no role as is a private person. The first lady/gentleman is the queen/prince consort.

You may be better off looking at AM and her MiL QF in comparison to women like Amalia and Margaret Papandreou along with women who were politicans in their own right (women got the vote in 1952 in Greece) like Melina Mecouri and Dora Bakoyannis, and the wives of the post 1974 Greek Presidents, to see where AM and her public image and role fits in the grand scheme of Greek Politics and Society.
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  #310  
Old 10-31-2016, 06:54 PM
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First Ladies in monarchies do not exist, although the press uses the term to talk about the wives of the first ministers.

However, I take this issue to talk about Amalia. I recently read a very interesting article about Amalia....but as we are talking about First Ladies, I will focus on a detail of the article, Amalia was known as "Lady Amalia," not as "Amalia" or "Lady Karamanalis". This was not because her husband was Prime Minister, but because Amalia was identified as a noblewoman by her manners, her education, her position social. She was always very close to the Greek royal house by her family, Kanellopoulos family(dinasty of politicians). Before meeting her husband, amalia knew in person to the Greek Royal Family.

The Queen Anna Maria always I stand out for her great beauty, she was a beautiful woman, she was very tall, thin. But she had a gesture with very delicate, feminine hands. She was a woman of very beautiful and natural gesture. She was elegance on the gestures, when I see pictures of Queen ingrid, I see to Queen Anna Maria.She had a sweet smile and a character
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