Who is the Rightful Heir to the French Throne?

[kimebear]

Assuming a Napoleon would even want the job. From what I understand, the current Prince Napoleon shuns his royal title, even though there was a big stink about him keeping it.

[serenissima]

Originally Posted by claudia

The real heirs to the French Throne are the Orléans.

It seems that it is a matter of dispute re: which house should be more legitimate etc. I understand that the Count of Paris claims to be the King of the French whereas Louis Alphonse claims to be the King of France.

The King of Spain seems to take his side to those who are related to his late mother that I do not know if his support makes the Count of Paris rightful over Louis Alphonse. The King of Spain also supports Infante Don Carlos, the Duke of Calabria, who is related to the king's late mother as the head of the House of the Two Sicilies but all the members of the House of the Two Sicilies as well as other royal houses treat Prince Carlo of Bourbon-Two Sicilies, Duke of Castro, as such. The Count of Paris is related to the King of Spain through the king's maternal side.

Oh, and, the Count of Paris, in an attempt to establish his legal rights as head of the Royal House of France, launched an unsuccessful court case (1987 - 1989) in which he challenged his rival Louis Alphonse's right to use the undifferenced Royal Arms. The French courts denied that they had jurisdiction over the dispute and did not address the merits of the case.

I suppose that the Bourbons in France has long forgotten and it is a republic after all that this sort of dispute is quite irrelevant to many French men and women today.

Originally Posted by H.M. Margrethe

I really don´t think that HM Queen Elizabeth II is the person who are going to be the real heir to the French crown and neither the rest of her family becaus they have allredy spoilede the English crown.

Traditinally, the English monarchs used the title of the King of France as one of their titles. Still today the Queen uses the title of the Duke of Normandy since she reigns over the Channel Islands as such.

[Madame Royale]

Don Juan Carlos I supports Henri Philipe d'Orléans, Count of Paris, Duke of France as claimant to the French throne.

[Alison20]

It seems to me that you can't give up your rights to one throne (France) and marry into another family (Spain) with a reasonable expectation of getting close to the throne there, and then decide that you want to ignore all this at a later date.

I believe the last genuine claimant of the Bourbon line died without male heir in 1936. At this point, the right that the Bourbons had to the French throne moved across to the Orleans Branch. Louis Alphonse's line is a part of the Spanish Royal Family and out of the French one.

I believe it is the same for The Bourbon Two Sicilies line. The second son of Pr Alfonso, Head of the Royal House of BTS, Pr Carlo, became an Infante of Spain on his marriage to Infanta Maria de las Mercedes of Spain, and gave up any rights to the BTS line. This, as with the French case, was because the Spanish line kept looking as if it was going to die out, and there were only female heirs. When these Infantas married it was important that their decendants were only heirs to the Spanish throne and didn't muddy the waters by also being in line to any other throne . It is wrong to say, therefore, that Pr Don Carlos (who is married to Pss Anne of Orleans) is the Head of the Royal House of BTS. (The Don in his title gives it away - he is in the Spanish RF.) When Pr Alfonso of BTS's eldest son (Ferdinando) died without a male heir (1960), the right to be Head of the RH of BTS skipped over Carlo's line (who had 'abdicated') and landed on Pr Ranieri, the third son. With the death of Pr Ranieri's only son, Ferdinando, just recently, the Headship of this family passes to Pr Carlo. He is Fernando's only son - and at present he only has 2 daughters, I believe. So there may be problems with the succession in the future if this situation does not change!

I do not believe that King Juan Carlos of Spain supports the claim of either of his family members to the hypothetical 'thrones' of France or the Two Sicilies. After all their ancestors gave up their claims to become members of the Spanish Royal House.

[Thribette]

Alison, there are things you seem not to know in European history.

It seems to me that you can't give up your rights to one throne (France) and marry into another family (Spain) with a reasonable expectation of getting close to the throne there, and then decide that you want to ignore all this at a later date.

1) In France, a prince cannot lose his position by this way. It is a laws. Philip V went in Spain knowing he would keep his French rights, and he was, 12 years later, deceived by his own counsillors to make him believe he could resign them (only solution for him as he had jurated to serve the Spanish people and was forced by the war); his counsillors obeyed in this to the king of France, Louis XIV, who saw no other way of ending the war, and knew such renunciation would be invalid.
2) He didn't marry a Spanish woman, he married first a princess of Savoie, later an italian princess, heiress of Parma. His grandfather (Louis XIV) and grandgrandfather (Louis XIII) did marry spanish princesses.

I believe the last genuine claimant of the Bourbon line died without male heir in 1936. At this point, the right that the Bourbons had to the French throne moved across to the Orleans Branch. Louis Alphonse's line is a part of the Spanish Royal Family and out of the French one.

The "last genuine claimant" you are citing, is the last prince of the Carlist line, who were descendants of Philip V, parts of the Spanish royal family (although they were excluded) and claimants to the Spanish throne. Why should it be different later? Alfonso XIII was in exile when he succeeded in 1936...

I believe it is the same for The Bourbon Two Sicilies line. The second son of Pr Alfonso, Head of the Royal House of BTS, Pr Carlo, became an Infante of Spain on his marriage to Infanta Maria de las Mercedes of Spain, and gave up any rights to the BTS line. This, as with the French case, was because the Spanish line kept looking as if it was going to die out, and there were only female heirs. When these Infantas married it was important that their decendants were only heirs to the Spanish throne and didn't muddy the waters by also being in line to any other throne . It is wrong to say, therefore, that Pr Don Carlos (who is married to Pss Anne of Orleans) is the Head of the Royal House of BTS. (The Don in his title gives it away - he is in the Spanish RF.) When Pr Alfonso of BTS's eldest son (Ferdinando) died without a male heir (1960), the right to be Head of the RH of BTS skipped over Carlo's line (who had 'abdicated') and landed on Pr Ranieri, the third son. With the death of Pr Ranieri's only son, Ferdinando, just recently, the Headship of this family passes to Pr Carlo. He is Fernando's only son - and at present he only has 2 daughters, I believe. So there may be problems with the succession in the future if this situation does not change!

About the Two-Sicilies, I don't know enough to argue, sorry.

I do not believe that King Juan Carlos of Spain supports the claim of either of his family members to the hypothetical 'thrones' of France or the Two Sicilies. After all their ancestors gave up their claims to become members of the Spanish Royal House.

This is absolutely wrong.
Felipe V went to Spain keeping with his French rights, twelve years later was forced (and deceived) to "resign" them, when he understood he could not valably do so, and his nephew king Louis XV of France, still a child, was ill, he sent letters to the French parliament to prepare his accession to the French throne, as unalienable laws entitled him. Eventually Louis XV survived and had descendance.

[Warren]

Originally Posted by Alison20

I do not believe that King Juan Carlos of Spain supports the claim of either of his family members to the hypothetical 'thrones' of France or the Two Sicilies.

Without gettring involved in the dispute over the rightful head of Bourbon-Two Silciles, the decison of King Juan Carlos to honour Don Carlos, Duke of Calabria, as an Infant of Spain in 1994 made a most definite statement as to whom he believed to be the Head of the Royal House.

[Thribette]

Sorry, I had not seen this part of Alison's post...
In 1983, the heads of the French (Alphonse of Bourbon, duke of Anjou and of Cadiz) and Spanish (king Juan-Carlos) royal houses (and of Parma ducal house? Not sure) published (in italian, later in spanish with a change in the order of signatures...) a joint statement, asserting that the head of the Two-Sicilies royal house, was the infant don Carlos.
It is not a proof of his legitimity, some kings of France or Spain have already failed in finding the right heir of a neighbour kingdom, but this shows the position of king Juan-Carlos.
More information here (site in English) :
Two Sicilies Succession, detailed examination of the dispute (Borbone-Due Sicilie disputa)

[Jo of Palatine]

Originally Posted by Thribette

1) In France, a prince cannot lose his position by this way. It is a laws. Philip V went in Spain knowing he would keep his French rights, and he was, 12 years later, deceived by his own counsillors to make him believe he could resign them (only solution for him as he had jurated to serve the Spanish people and was forced by the war); his counsillors obeyed in this to the king of France, Louis XIV, who saw no other way of ending the war, and knew such renunciation would be invalid.
2) He didn't marry a Spanish woman, he married first a princess of Savoie, later an italian princess, heiress of Parma. His grandfather (Louis XIV) and grandgrandfather (Louis XIII) did marry spanish princesses.

The Spanish inheritance war started because the male line of the Habsburgs of Spain got extinct and the right to the Spanish throne knew female inheritance (the Habsburg got to the power through the marriage of the heiress of the Spanish crowns to a Habsburg-archduke).

Both Louis XIII., his son Louis XIV and emperors Leopold I. and Ferdinand III: were married to Spanish Habsburg-princesses but the French kings had in both cases married the older sister with the more senior inheritance rights. Thus it made sense that finally the French contestor got the throne, even though the French inheritance law didn't know of the possibility to renounce the rights to the throne for a male descendant of the French king.

And as we talk Bourbons here, we should accept that Philip V.'s renounciation was invalid and thus his descendants still have the more senior right to the French throne of the Ancien Régime, pre-revolution.