Who is the Rightful Heir to the French Throne?

[Russian]

Excuse me but I have one question.
I have read the document, which describes the rules of the french inheritance.
Let's present that Luis Alifonso will have only daughter or will remain without posterity. Who will be a legal successor of the french kings in this case? Bourbon-Parma family or duc de Calabria (he is Bourbon Two Sicilies)?
Here right of the womans absolutely expelled?

[Toledo]

Originally Posted by Jo of Palatine

...Let's face it, we live in modern times - France, as are Parme, Naples, Sicily as part of Italy, is a republic and in Spain a different branch of the Bourbon inhabit the throne. There is no need for Senor de Borbon to claim anything or ask for a title that is not backed up by an actual monarchy.

Interesting point of view. I like it.
Even when Luis Alfonso is the senior male of the senior family branch and King Juan Carlos' clan is one branch down, Juan Carlos is the only Bourbon who sports a crown on his head these days.
Thus, at least for me, he is the boss of all clans, all other ones can dream all the want, but only Juan Carlos is the one called His Majesty these days.

[Warren]

Originally Posted by Russian

Let's present that Luis Alifonso will have only daughter or will remain without posterity. Who will be a legal successor of the french kings in this case? Bourbon-Parma family or duc de Calabria (he is Bourbon Two Sicilies)?
Here right of the womans absolutely expelled?

The next most senior male Bourbon after Luis Alfonso is none other than King Juan Carlos; the Prince of the Asturias is next, and after him the line goes back to the male issue of King Fernando VII, which brings us to Don Alfonso de Orléans-Bourbon y Ferrara-Pignatelli, 7th Duke of Galliera (b 1968), who is a descendant of Queen Victoria through his great-grandmother Princess Beatrice of Edinburgh, Princess of Great Britain and Princess of Saxe-Coburg and Gotha.

[Russian]

But whom is the native brother of Beatrice de Bourbon Two Sicilies, duc de Calabria?

[Warren]

Originally Posted by Russian

But whom is the native brother of Beatrice de Bourbon Two Sicilies, duc de Calabria?

The brother of Princess Beatrice is indeed Charles (Carlo), Duke of Calabria, son of one of the two pretenders/claimants to the Headship of the Royal House of Bourbon-Two Sicilies.

The Two Sicilies family has its own thread, here. Discussion of the Two Sicilies is not particularly relevant to the subject of "rightful heir to the French Throne", apart from the dynastic quirk of a Bourbon Princess marrying a Bonaparte Prince, and that is discussed in the Bonaparte thread.

[Russian]

And unless Two Sicilies not Bourbon? Unless this family does not occur from the French king Louis XIV and its grandson of the Spanish king Philippe V? Unless Duke of Calabria cannot be the successor of the French throne after Luis Alphonso and the Spanish king Juan Carlos?

[Warren]

Originally Posted by Russian

And unless Two Sicilies not Bourbon? Unless this family does not occur from the French king Louis XIV and its grandson of the Spanish king Philippe V? Unless Duke of Calabria cannot be the successor of the French throne after Luis Alphonso and the Spanish king Juan Carlos?

Yes, the Two Sicilies are Bourbons (as are the Parmas), but far enough removed that we don't need to take them into calculation as potential successors unless there is a major dynastic catastrophe.

[magnik]

What I've read on An Online Gotha

"The headship of the Royal House of France is an interesting question. Leaving aside the dilemma caused by the Bonaparte claimant, who is clearly an heir to hereditary monarchs of two separate French Empires, the question of who is heir to the claim of the House of Capet, which ruled France for half the Christian era, is the subject of great dispute.
Probably the majority of French monarchists support the claims of the Orléanist line, headed by Henri, Comte de Paris, who has assumed the title "Duc de France". He is clearly the heir of Louis Philippe, King of the French, who ruled from 1830 to 1848. He is also the heir to the legitimist line of the House of Capet if the renunciation of King Felipe V of Spain to the French throne was valid. Eminent and learned scholars have argued that no such resignation was valid and that thus King Felipe's heir male inherited the Legitimist claim on the death of Henri V, so long, at least, as the claim is not united to another throne. The heir male of King Felipe is Don Luis Alfonso de Borbón.
Since reasonable persons can make valid arguments in favor of either claimant, both will be presented here in this article. Furthermore, if Luis Alfonso is entitled to be considered a French dynast, then so are all the legitimate male-line descendants of King Felipe, and, indeed, of Hugues Capet (e.g., the Seville, Roccaguglielma, Galliera, and Infant Gabriel lines). For other apparent dynasts of the House of France, then, see the articles on Spain, Two Sicilies, Parma, Brazil and Luxemburg.
Historically, no such title existed as "Prince of France". The members of the Orléanist branch who are not products of morganatic marriages have been accorded the title of Prince[ss] d'Orléans, Royal Highness, unless other titles are shown and the children of the head and the heir apparent of that line have now been accorded the title Prince[ss] of France, Royal Highness."
http://pages.prodigy.net/ptheroff/gotha/france.html

[magnik]

And here. Maybe you know that or maybe no but few info here http://www.chivalricorders.org/royal...e/frenlegt.htm

"The claim of Louis-Alphonse de Bourbon to be Head of the Royal House of Bourbon and representative of the Monarchy founded by Hugues Capet is based on the fact that he is the latter's senior male primogeniture heir by legitimate descent. He is a Roman Catholic, and a French citizen. The objectionss to his claim made by the Orléanists, simply stated are based on the renunciation of 1712-13 made by Philip V of Spain and their inclusion as a provision of the Treaty of Utrecht, and the foreign nationality of many of his ancestors. However (i) the renunciations of 1712-13 were void from the moment they were signed, and even the Treaty of Utrecht could not affect the Fundamental Laws (just as the Treaty of Troyes of 1420 could not do so) (ii) any possible validity of those renunciations was rendered void by (a) the failure of the reciprocal actions required under their terms [...] and (b) by the repeal of semi-Salic Law in Spain 1830/33, and (iii) the foreign nationality of intervening generations cannot stand in the path of a Dynast's succession any more than it can prevent a foreigner from inheriting a French title.[4] For these self-same reasons there was no impediment to the succession of the Infante Don Juan in 1883, nor of successive senior representatives of the House of Bourbon to the Headship of the Royal House of France. The Family of Orléans accordingly follows eventually in succession after the most junior members of the Family of Bourbon-Parma.
The heir of the Orléans family, then Count of Clermont (now Count of Paris) took action in the French courts to try and prevent the Head of the House of Bourbon using the title of Duke of Anjou and the plain Arms of France. He failed in his efforts to persuade the French Courts to support his case (see statement by the Secretariat of the Mgr Alphonse de Bourbon [...] More recently, on the death of the Count o Paris, the Duke of Anjou offered his personal condolences to the new Head of the Branch of Orléans, thus improving the relationship between the two lines which had been damaged by the earlier court case and other actions. The present Duke of Anjou is a frequent visitor to France and participates in many public functions, including attending as the guest of the French government the annual anniversary Mass of the foundation of the Les Invalides as the senior representative of Louis XIV. He is also a member of the French Society of the Cincinnati as the Representative of Louis XVI."

[Toledo]

Is good to know that young Luis Alfonso is trying to end all these bad blood in the family and make peace with his cousins. Too bad that pride and ambition precedes good manners with some royals.

[maidmarion]

Originally Posted by Toledo

Is good to know that young Luis Alfonso is trying to end all these bad blood in the family and make peace with his cousins. Too bad that pride and ambition precedes good manners with some royals.

Very well state Toledo.
MM:)

[Warren]

Originally Posted by Toledo

Is good to know that young Luis Alfonso is trying to end all these bad blood in the family and make peace with his cousins. Too bad that pride and ambition precedes good manners with some royals.

So how must Luis Alfonso have felt when the Comte de Paris named his nephew, Prince Charles-Philippe d'Orléans, the "rival" Duc d'Anjou in 2004?
It seems that LA's attempts to "make peace with his [French] cousins" was to no avail, as the Orléans response was a heavy-handed and calculated affront.

[Stefan]

Originally Posted by Warren

The next most senior male Bourbon after Luis Alfonso is none other than King Juan Carlos; the Prince of the Asturias is next, and after him the line goes back to the male issue of King Fernando VII, which brings us to Don Alfonso de Orléans-Bourbon y Ferrara-Pignatelli, 7th Duke of Galliera (b 1968), who is a descendant of Queen Victoria through his great-grandmother Princess Beatrice of Edinburgh, Princess of Great Britain and Princess of Saxe-Coburg and Gotha.

But there is no direct male line. The descendants of Isabel II. are the male line because she married her cousin, but her sister didn't so it is the female line from there one. After the prince of asturias should come the Duke of Sevilla.

[Russian]

Wait!
I once again have closely read through the document resulted by you on the French laws of inheritance of the French throne. Therefore I have some questions.
1) These laws exclude laws of succession of women on the French throne?
2) If grandson Louis XIV has borrowed the Spanish throne and could not apply simultaneously for the French crown on conditions of Utrecht contract, all the same new Spanish king from the French dynasty remains a member French Hugo Capet At home, all the same it kept the rights to the French throne, all the same its descendants are considered as members of Hugo Capet House and have the right to borrow the French throne?
3) the Spanish King Ferdinand has entered the so-called Pragmatical sanction in 1834 on which its daughter Isabella became the successor of the Spanish throne owing to absence of man's posterity at this Spanish king. But unless it did not contradict the French laws?
4) Why carlist supporters considered the Pragmatical sanction as infringement of laws of inheritance of a throne?
5) why carlist supporters lifted revolts against queen Isabella with the purpose to protect the rights carlist applicants for the Spanish throne?
6) whether carlist applicants for the Spanish throne have been recognized Le Comte Chambord as successors of the French throne in 1883?
7) why Luis Alphonco it is considered chapter Hugo Capet of the House, in fact it is the lineal descendant of queen Isabella?

I shall be glad, if you will answer me these questions in the same sequence, beginning from the first and finishing the last.

[Toledo]

Originally Posted by Warren

So how must Luis Alfonso have felt when the Comte de Paris named his nephew, Prince Charles-Philippe d'Orléans, the "rival" Duc d'Anjou in 2004?
It seems that LA's attempts to "make peace with his [French] cousins" was to no avail, as the Orléans response was a heavy-handed and calculated affront.

I saw the pictures in Point de Vue of that event. Maybe is to psyche Luis Alfonso out and make feel unwelcome in France? After all, he was the one that took main stage on the pictures involving the restoration/recognition of the heart of Louis XVII, the child heir of the last 18th century King and Marie Antoinette. So, the Orleans could be trying to save face by slapping Luis Alfonso's with the title thing. Kind of childish when you think about it. And the family feud goes to all branches because the Orleans were partisans of King Juan Carlos over the Duke of Cadiz (Luis Alfonso's father), who by then was considered the senior male of the senior Bourbon line, not seen with good eyes by any other branch that disputed his legitimacy...namely the Orleans again.

But the interesting thing is that Luis Alfonso, who lost his father and older brother in horrendous accidents, does not seem to care much about their opinion. Live and let live but he is the only one making an attempt to find some peace within this family. You know that when he was invited to the wedding of Felipe and Letizia this was to be the event to introduce his girlfriend to the family and he was limited to one seat, no guests. Once more, kind of childish when you think about it.

[magnik]

Maybe you find some more info here, Russian and fellows:

http://www.heraldica.org/topics/france/
http://library.byu.edu/%7Erdh/eurodocs/france.html

(Many links on French.)

[sirmax]

According to Wikipedia.com, Henri d'Orléans, Earl of Paris would be the true hier to the French Throne, but I dont know if this is right

[Warren]

Originally Posted by sirmax

According to Wikipedia.com, Henri d'Orléans, Earl of Paris would be the true hier to the French Throne, but I dont know if this is right

For the Orléanists, the Comte de Paris is indeed the rightful claimant, being the direct descendant of the last King of the French, Louis-Philippe.
Of course the Bonapartists have their Pretender, Prince Charles Napoleon, as do the legitimists, who support Luis Alfonso.
It's a three-horse race with the finish line nowhere in sight.

[sirmax]

Originally Posted by Warren

For the Orléanists, the Comte de Paris is indeed the rightful claimant, being the direct descendant of the last King of the French, Louis-Philippe.
Of course the Bonapartists have their Pretender, Prince Charles Napoleon, as do the legitimists, who support Luis Alfonso.
It's a three-horse race with the finish line nowhere in sight.

LOL :) That's true! Is the finish line somewhere near? LOL

[Beatrice]

Magnik the info you posted is treasure.