Who is the Rightful Heir to the French Throne? - Page 5

magnik · #81 08-12-2006, 02:23 PM

Happy that I could help to you, somehow

Henri M. · #82 08-12-2006, 04:03 PM

It is not so complicated at all.

The straight line of direct male hereditary successors from Louis XIV became extinct in 1883 with the death of the Comte de Chambord.

The inheritance of the throne of France logically should have gone to the most senior closest male in the House of Bourbon.
And that was the Infante Carlos of Spain, Conde de Montizon.

But... but... but...

A grandson of Louis XIV (the second son of the Dauphin), the Duc d'Anjou, became King of Spain. Having a Bourbon king on both the French and Spanish thrones disturbed the balance of power in Europe and a Grand Alliance of European nations united against this. As a result the Treaty of Utrecht of 1713 was agreed, meaning that the Duc d'Anjou and his hereditary successors and their descendants lost their claim on the throne of France for ever.

Because of this, the -logical- most senior Bourbon line in Spain had to be ignored and the second senior line, the Orléans (descending from Louis XIV's younger brother the Duc d'Orléans) became the rightful claimants on the throne of France.

The supporters of the Anjou line stress the seniority of his bloodline but 'forget' the Treaty of Utrecht.
The supporters of the Orléans line accept the seniority of the Anjou line but point to the Treaty of Utrecht.

Louis Alphonse de Bourbon, Duc d'Anjou sees himself as the most senior of all Bourbons and therefore King of France and Spain, neglecting the Treaty of Utrecht.
Henri de Bourbon de Orléans sees himself as the rightful King of France pointing to the Treaty of Utrecht which excludes the Spanish branch.
Juan Carlos de Borbón sees himself as the rightful Spanish King, neglecting the Anjou claim that he is not the most senior male, due to his descendance from Queen Isabel II of Spain.

Toledo · #83 08-12-2006, 11:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Beatrice

Magnik the info you posted is treasure.

I second that statement, thoese two links are loaded with information.

.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Henri M.

It is not so complicated at all...

And Henri, you have summarized in a one post answer the main question on the thread! Because the answer to the whole problem depends completely in the point of view of whoever could end up negatively affected by a different solution.
Bravo

**Zonk** · #84 08-13-2006, 01:45 PM

Henri M...that was great! I must confess..I was totally confused with all the lines and you managed to clear that up with one great post!

Russian · #85 08-31-2006, 08:09 AM

Excuse me, but I have questions. Really legitimists and orleanists cannot come to the compromise agreement concerning the successor of the French crown? What were conditions of Utrecht contract concerning the Spanish and French crowns? Tell, please, refusal of Felipe V the French crown extends only on the subsequent Spanish kings and their successors or on all Spanish royal family?

Danielane · #86 08-31-2006, 08:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Russian

Excuse me, but I have questions. Really legitimists and orleanists cannot come to the compromise agreement concerning the successor of the French crown? What were conditions of Utrecht contract concerning the Spanish and French crowns? Tell, please, refusal of Felipe V the French crown extends only on the subsequent Spanish kings and their successors or on all Spanish royal family?

There won't be any compromise agreement between the pretenders and their supporters. Noone of the supporters of both side would accept it.

Russian · #87 08-31-2006, 09:11 AM

What French monarchists in the numerical majority - legitimists or orleanists?

Next Star · #88 08-31-2006, 10:22 AM

Those are in first line to a abolished monarchy throne are not heirs or those behind them they are called pretenders because their monarchies have been abolished. If don't believe me go to Answers.com and look up heir-apparent and heir-presumptive scrolll down and you see those who are in line to a abolished monarchythrone are called pretenders.

richardsw · #89 09-05-2006, 11:06 AM

What is the lines of succession to the Headship of the French Royal House, after Prince Louis Alphonso of Bourbon, Duke of Anjou and Bourbon; Prince Henri of Bourbon-Orleans, Count of Paris and Prince Charles Napoleon of France?

Russian · #90 09-08-2006, 06:33 AM

Quote:

What is the lines of succession to the Headship of the French Royal House, after Prince Louis Alphonso of Bourbon, Duke of Anjou and Bourbon; Prince Henri of Bourbon-Orleans, Count of Paris and Prince Charles Napoleon of France?

Jean-Christophe is the unique napoleonic successor. As to Orleans, I think, someone should be one of numerous descendants of 11 children of the previous Parisian count. If Luis Alphonso will be the father only girls or remains childless, I think, someone from Spanish (either from Parma, or from Sicilian) relatives becomes legitimist pretendent on the French throne.

kelly9480 · #91 09-08-2006, 05:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Russian

Jean-Christophe is the unique napoleonic successor.

According to Theroff, Jean-Christophe has an unmarried uncle, Jérôme, born 1957, so two heirs.

Russian · #92 09-09-2006, 09:14 AM

Quote:

According to Theroff, Jean-Christophe has an unmarried uncle, Jérôme, born 1957, so two heirs.

As I have correctly understood, Jerome Bonaparte still single and childless by the 50 years. I am afraid, that it never will change the marital status. So Jean-Christophe the unique napoleonic successor.

Danielane · #93 09-09-2006, 09:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Russian

As I have correctly understood, Jerome Bonaparte still single and childless by the 50 years. I am afraid, that it never will change the marital status. So Jean-Christophe the unique napoleonic successor.

As long as Jean-Christophe is alive and able to have a descendancy, it is pointless to discuss of Jérôme like heir of the Bonaparte family.

Danielane · #94 09-13-2006, 12:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Next Star

Those are in first line to a abolished monarchy throne are not heirs or those behind them they are called pretenders because their monarchies have been abolished. If don't believe me go to Answers.com and look up heir-apparent and heir-presumptive scrolll down and you see those who are in line to a abolished monarchythrone are called pretenders.

You are right in theory. But when there are several pretenders, we use the term heir where we would use pretender in other cases. And then we use the term pretender to call one of the people pretending to be the heir.
For example, their is a pretender to the throne of Prussia, but for France or Italy there are two potentials heirs, who are called pretenders. The count of Paris claims he's the heir because he believes his branch, and not Luis Alfonso's one, is the one who should inherit the french throne if monarchy was reinstated. I think we can use the term heir for such cases as there is a disput about the owners of heritage of the late kings.

**Warren** · #95 09-14-2006, 05:08 AM

Thanks for the explanation Danielane.

To avoid the thread being sidetracked into an argument over semantics, we'll leave further discussion of the use of these words to another time, and another place.

I'll just point out that the thread title came from a question posed by a member who created the original thread (into which other posts have been merged).
As most people appear to understand the meaning and intent of the question, no change is required.

Warren
Non-Reigning Houses moderator

bleu roi · #96 09-15-2006, 01:16 PM

First post. Can anyone tell me how the Maison de Savoie fits into the French succession issue, if at all? Forgive my ignorance, but various people appear on FRENCH TV who are all presented as successors; recently a member of the Savoie branch was introduced as such... (maybe wrongly)

**Warren** · #97 09-16-2006, 06:09 AM

The French succession concerns three families: The Orléans, the Bonapartes, and the Bourbons (in the person of Luis Alfonso).
The Royal House of Savoy, which is the former reigning House of the Kingdom of Italy, doesn't enter into it.

Next Star · #98 09-17-2006, 09:29 PM

I wonder who would be King of France if the monarchy were to be rstored and also who would be the heir ? And if they would allow both male and female descents to be in the line of succession to the throne.

Avalon · #99 09-18-2006, 01:14 PM

That's the whole point of this thread's disscusion.
There are two Pretenders to the French Throne.

One of them is Comte de Paris, the other is the so-called Spanish line.
After the death of the childless legitimist pretender "Henry V", Comte de Chambord (grandson of King Charles X of France), most accepted his selection of the heir, the Orleanist Pretender, Comte de Paris (grandson of King Louis-Phillipe (he descends from the second son of King Louis XIII). Few, however argue that the rightful descendant is the descendant of Louis XIV (Spanish line).

The point of the argument is that Prince Philip (King Philip V of Spain) renounced any claims (including future) to the French throne, upon becoming the King of Spain. Therefore the Dukes of Orleans were recognized as the rightul heirs (after the direct line) before the French Revolution. The opposite group says that this renunciation was invalid and impossible (some also point that Philippe Egalite and Louis-Philippe forfeited any rights to the throne for disloyalty during the FR).