Rival Claimants to the French Throne 1: Ending 2020

[Mbruno]

Please see below an English version of the article in the Treaty of Utrecht where Philip V, King of Spain, renounces "for ever and ever" all succession rights to the French throne that he or any of his descendants had or would eventually have in the future. The text leaves no margin for doubt and makes it clear that in the absence of any male descendants of Louis XIV in male line other than Philip's own descendants, the succession should pass to the male descendants (in male line) of Philip's uncle, the Duke of Orléans.

"I, Don Philip, by the Grace of God King of Castile etc... do... for myself, for my Heirs and Successors, renounce, quit, and relinquish for ever and ever all Pretensions, Rights and Titless which I have, or any Descendent of mine hath at present, or may have at any time to come, to the Succession of the Crown of France; and I declare, and hold myself for excluded and separated, me, and my Sons, Heirs, and Descendents for ever, for excluded, and disabled absolutely, and without Limitation, Difference and Distinction of Persons, Degrees, Sexes and Time, from the Act and Right of succeeding to the crown of France.... and the Succession to the said Crown of France is at any time, and in any case to be settled on, and given the same manner, as if I and my Descendents had not been born, or been in the World... I will and consent for myself, and for my Descendents, that from this time, as well as then, this Right be looked upon and considered as passed over, and transferred to the duke of Berry my brother, and to his Sons and Descendents, being Males, born in constant lawful Marriage; and in default of Male Issue, to the Duke of Orleans my Uncle, and to his Sons and Descendents, being Males born in constant lawful Marriage.."

The Treaties of Utrecht

 

[Duc_et_Pair]

And added to this: the Duke of Anjou's brother Charles, Duc de Berry did in turn renounce any claim on the throne of Spain and even so did the Duke's uncle, Philippe Duc d'Orléans. So three different persons solemnly signed a renunciation on each other's thrones. All these were later confirmed in a sort of Letters Patent by King Louis XIV.

 

[Tho Hibbele]

The ultra legitimist claim does go against international treaties indeed. When the old-Bourbon line died out, King Alfonso XIII of Spain did remove the differentiation from the Bourbon shield in the Spanish arms to signify that he was now the most senior Bourbon though. That might have inspired Louis's father to stake his claim.


Gerard

 

[Duc_et_Pair]

The current Spanish coat of arms (and the royal coat of arms) have returned to the differentiated Bourbon arms for the House of Anjou: three golden fleurs-de-lys in a field azure with an edge of red:

Bourbon-Anjou:

King of Spain (with the Anjou arms as heartshield):

So apparently after Alfonso XIII the undifferentiated arms indicating the most senior Bourbon House was not continued by Juan Carlos and Felipe VI. Don Luis Alfonso, the legitimist claimant who nevertheless calls himself Duc d'Anjou does -against logic- not bear the Anjou arms but those of the Kings of France (three golden fleurs-de-lys in a field azure proper).

 

[Tho Hibbele]

Yes, it has returned to that. But technically Juan-Carlos wasn't the most senior Bourbon, like his grandfather was. Louis however is and he uses the arms undifferentiated. Which is dodgy indeed. They are after all the Royal arms of France!

Gerard

 

[Duc_et_Pair]

I can follow Don Luis Alfonso a bit. He IS the most senior Bourbon of all Bourbons, but at the same time different Arms indicate different Houses (France, Spain, Two Sicilies, Parma, etc.). Seen from the one point of view, he is sporting the Arms of the Kings of France, a throne he is barred from. It is double: from a genealogic point of view he maybe has an argument.

 

[Cory]

I was happy to see the Count of Paris near HRH the Prince Louis of Bourbon at Hotel des Invalides .

 

[Tho Hibbele]

I do think France will remain a Republic

 

[Cory]

Any restoration won't certainly be very soon.

 

[eya]

Any restoration is difficult to do especially after so many years. But it is important that claimants maintain appropriate relationship because it is ridiculous to see conflicts for a throne to not exist.

 

[NotHRH]

I can follow Don Luis Alfonso a bit. He IS the most senior Bourbon of all Bourbons, but at the same time different Arms indicate different Houses (France, Spain, Two Sicilies, Parma, etc.). Seen from the one point of view, he is sporting the Arms of the Kings of France, a throne he is barred from. It is double: from a genealogic point of view he maybe has an argument.

In all fairness, how can a person (in this case Philip V of Spain) renounce succession rights for his descendants? For himself - yes. Even though France will never reinstate the constitutional monarchy form of government, it's really silly anybody can rob all of their descendants of their birthright. Philip V made a huge decision a very long time ago, when life situations were vastly different than they are now. It IS also a little silly that Luis Alfonso can decide to sport the arms of the Kings of France and, voila, he does. I definitely can understand Luis Alfonso ' s feelings about this situation, and, yes, he does have an argument.

 

[NotHRH]

Any restoration is difficult to do especially after so many years. But it is important that claimants maintain appropriate relationship because it is ridiculous to see conflicts for a throne to not exist.

Yes it is a little ridiculous, but I guess they have nothing better to do. ???

 

[Duc_et_Pair]

In all fairness, how can a person (in this case Philip V of Spain) renounce succession rights for his descendants? For himself - yes. [...]

That is standard in all monarchies.

Eventual sons and daughters of the Duke of Windsor, who renounced the throne, would not have had any succession rights to the British throne.

The descendants of Infante Don Jaime de Borbón, who renounced the throne of Spain, have no succession rights to the throne of Spain. Under them his grandson Don Luis Alfonso de Borbón.

The descendants of Princess Irene of the Netherlands, who renounced the throne of the Netherlands by engaging into a marriage without required approval, have no succession rights to the throne of the Netherlands. Under them her son Prince Carlos, the Duke of Parma.

The descendants of Prince Sigvard of Sweden, who renounced the throne of the Sweden by engaging into a marriage without required approval, have no succession rights to the throne of the Sweden. Under them his son Michael Bernadotte, Greve af Wisborg.

Etc.

 

[Duc_et_Pair]

In all fairness, how can a person (in this case Philip V of Spain) renounce succession rights for his descendants? For himself - yes. Even though France will never reinstate the constitutional monarchy form of government, it's really silly anybody can rob all of their descendants of their birthright. Philip V made a huge decision a very long time ago, when life situations were vastly different than they are now. It IS also a little silly that Luis Alfonso can decide to sport the arms of the Kings of France and, voila, he does. I definitely can understand Luis Alfonso ' s feelings about this situation, and, yes, he does have an argument.

Note that by doing so, Philippe de Bourbon, Duc d'Anjou, did not loose any throne. He won the throne of Spain for himself and his descendants. During his lifetime he had no any chance to become King of France because his elder brother, the three sons of his elder brother, and the sons of his elder brothers' youngest son were all before him in the line of succession.

When Philippe de Bourbon, Duc d'Anjou died in 1746 his cousin Louis de Bourbon, Duc d'Anjou was King Louis XV of France, and a whole fleet of his descendants would come before the descendants of Philippe. In the best case the descendants of Philippe would be unimportant nobles somewhere in the pheriphery of the royal family of France instead of Kings and Infantes of Spain...

 

[Duc_et_Pair]

[...] I definitely can understand Luis Alfonso ' s feelings about this situation, and, yes, he does have an argument.

Luis Alfonso has no argument. When he fights a renouncation of 316 years ago by his ancestor Philippe de Bourbon, Duc d'Anjou, to the throne of France, to obtain Spain: why doesn't he fight the renouncation by his grandfather Don Jaime de Borbón, Duque de Segovia, to the throne of Spain then? Also that renouncation was for Don Jaime himself and his descendants. As a consequence, Don Juan Carlos, became King of Spain in 1975.

When the argument is "how can someone renounce for his descendants?" then he should fight the legitimacy of the kingships of King Juan Carlos and King Felipe VI and -so far- he has not done that. It is -in essence- pretty simple: was Don Luis Alfonso now the King of Spain, you would never have heard him about the throne of France. Now that his deaf and mute grandfather had renounced his rights -twice even- he finds himself as the genealogically most senior Spanish Borbón but without any position so he now claims the throne of France, neglecting the renounciations of his ancestors ánd the Treaties of Utrecht with all solemn signatures and kilos of grand seals attached to it.

With other words: Don Luis Alfonso and his supporters wipe their derrières with solemn treaties which are still in force (Gibraltar is still belongs to the British Crown because of that Treaty..., the French territories in the American colonies became British and ultimately USA and Canadian territories, or is Luis Alfonso fighting that as well????) A pretty selective chap, that dude...

 

[Marengo]

OT posts about infanta Cristina of Spain have been deleted.

 

[Blog Real]

What is the applicant who has more support?
It is possible to know what kind of support has each of the applicants? and you can know what kind of work has each of the applicants?

 

[NotHRH]

What is the applicant who has more support?
It is possible to know what kind of support has each of the applicants? and you can know what kind of work has each of the applicants?

I was wondering the exact same thing.

 

[Duc_et_Pair]

Both the Orléans as well Luis Alfonso de Borbón are just niches in French society. Let us keep that in mind. However, the Orléans have more structure and organization, which is not so strange since they are French royals born and raised in France and maintain French patrimonium, for an example the Château Royal d'Amboise.

Luis Alfonso is more a Spanish gentleman, born and raised in Spain, with residence in Spain, whom hops over to attend some events organized by his supporters. The Orléans have more structure, with the Fondation St. Louis administering their assets and patrimonium, with associations like the IMRF (l'Institution de la Maison Royale de France), Gens de France, La Nouvelle Action Royaliste, Groupe d'Action Royaliste, La Restauration Nationale, etc. Also royals and nobles have openly grouped around the Orléanists. For an example Isabelle d'Orléans, the mother of the present Orléanist claimant, posed with Duchesses of France at the Trianon. I will look for the picture. The Foundation St. Louis was chaired by Philippe d'Albert de Luynes-Dunois, 13ème Duc de Luynes, one of the most prestigious nobles (Duc et Pair since 1515).

 

[Marengo]

For an example Isabelle d'Orléans, the mother of the present Orléanist claimant, posed with Duchesses of France at the Trianon. I will look for the picture.

In the good old days of Point de Vue with the Duchesses of La Rochefoucauld, Harcourt, Gramont, Maillé, Noailles, Praslin and La Force.A great idea of whoever initiated this photograph!

Archives : la comtesse de Paris et les duchesses - Noblesse & Royautés

 

[Duc_et_Pair]

This is the picture I meant:

From the left to the right:

In beige with the fan:
Yolaine Françoise de La Rochefoucauld, Duchesse de La Rochefoucauld

In pink:
Isabelle d'Harcourt, Duchesse d'Harcourt

In brown:
Cathérine de Gramont, Duchesse de Gramont

Seated on the floor:
Martine de Maillé de la Tour-Landry, Duchesse de Maillé

Central:
Isabelle d'Orléans, Princesse de France

In red:
Charlotte de Noailles, Duchesse de Noailles

In flowery dress:
Clotilde de Choiseul-Praslin, Duchesse de Praslin

In blue:
Aline de Caumont de La Force, Duchesse de La Force

 

[Duc_et_Pair]

In the good old days of Point de Vue with the Duchesses of La Rochefoucauld, Harcourt, Gramont, Maillé, Noailles, Praslin and La Force.A great idea of whoever initiated this photograph!

Archives : la comtesse de Paris et les duchesses - Noblesse & Royautés

Oh you were before me.... while I was typing the next post.

 

[Cory]

There is a very interesting book dedicated to the Legitimist Pretenders : " Les princes caches ou histoire des pretendants legitimistes (1883-1989)" by Jacques Bernot. What's your opinion about this book?

 

[CyrilVladisla]

If the Comte de Paris was to legally be declared as the King of France, would he be King Henry V or King Henry VII?

 

[Countessmeout]

If the Comte de Paris was to legally be declared as the King of France, would he be King Henry V or King Henry VII?

Henry VII. Henry V belongs to the grandson of Charles X who was king for 7 days until Louis Philippe was crowned, His father's claim would be recognized as Henry VI. If Jean succeeded him he would be Jean IV (his great-grandfather being pretender Jean III). Francois would be the III. Its like Louis XVIII, he wasn't XVII as his brother Louis XVI's son was considered to have been king even if a republic.

 

[CyrilVladisla]

Countessmeout, This is very informative. Thus a Claimant to the Throne can be given a regnal number and still be counted as an uncrowned sovereign.

 

[Ish]

Countessmeout, This is very informative. Thus a Claimant to the Throne can be given a regnal number and still be counted as an uncrowned sovereign.

A claimant is counted if the successors who actually rule want to acknowledge him/her as having counted.

So, Louis-Charles, Dauphin of Francs, never ruled France a day of his life. His father, Louis XVI, was executed during the Revolution when Louis-Charles was 7 or 8, and Louis-Charles died 2 years later. He was never declared king, nor crowned, and he spent the entirety of those 2 years imprisoned. Yet, when his uncle came to the throne he was numbered Louis XVIII, retroactively acknowledging the reign of Louis-Charles (as Louis XVII).

Similar happened with the Napoleons; Napoleon II (son of Napoleon I) gains his numbering because his cousin chose to style himself as Napoleon III, despite Napoleon II never having actually reigned.

In England, the reign of Edward V isn't disputed despite his having never been crowned or ruled really (having spent most of his short reign imprisoned by the future Richard III), likely because he's acknowledged as having been a legitimate monarch by the numbering of Edward VI. Matilda of England and Margaret of Scotland both had longer reigns than him, yet have disputed statues as having been Queens - I would argue in part because there wasn't ever a Matilda II or Margaret II that followed them.

 

[eya]

Pretender to France's non-existent throne embroiled in succession row 

 

[rominet09]

Pretender to France's non-existent throne embroiled in succession row*

Can't wait to get my Point de vue and it is out TODAY !

 

[CyrilVladisla]

Pretender to France's non-existent throne embroiled in succession row*

Count Henri is very firm about French monarchial tradition. It is sad when family members squabble over inheritance.