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  #121  
Old 09-15-2007, 04:11 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Thribette
In fact, the Fundamental laws were not dicted by God, they rose one by one, but with the impression they were implicite before. Once meanwhile, God intervened appearently and spectacularly to rescue the laws, with St Joan of Arc (you may believe or not).
More pragmatically, and this is my point of view, we have, with this laws, a corpus that defines who is king, without doubt (OK, I recognize that in case of adoption, or in case of legitimation by marriage of an elder prince than the previous heir, there would still be problems of interpretation). This is a priceless treasure! Because the worst, when you have to name a king, is when there are several candidates. This is why, in case of a restoration of monarchy, I would support loudly the respect of the Fundamental Laws.
Sorry, i will not argue with that. Our way of thinking are too different. And, as I wrote before, I will not enter a disscussion involving an intervention of god, god in a political or historical matter.
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  #122  
Old 09-15-2007, 08:25 AM
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This is why I expose both points of vews : the religious one, and the pragmatic one; because in France, there are not only catholics, and the king of France is their king too! The French model of monarchy needs a general assentment. It cannot be a dictature.
The legitimity of a person as a king is not a matter of religion : I recognize the king of Morocco the legitimate king of his country, as descendent of Idriss I who funded the realm wich the general assentment of his governees, exhausted by the Vandals (subject to verifications, as I know very little about it).
For me, if one pass to a monarchy, it is highly recommendable to have a clear, precise and unalienable way of designing the monarch. Clear and precise, in order to avoid wars between two or more possible monarchs; unalienable, to avoid the attempts of modification in order to favorize such or such prince. The mere possibility of a contestation or change, will get people's mind trend to change it as they wish (what they wouldn't even wish if the laws were unalienable) and to contest the king's action, it is counter-productive for the country. In French model, we have the expression : "authority up, freedoms down". The king can much and little : he can much in case of abuse (for instance, a monopolistic industry or cartel or corporation, or for arbitrages), he can little everyday, as the system is not a state-directed one but a subsudiary one (in the true meaning of subsidiary). The problem of XVIIIth century was of a development that was economically good (except speculation on cereals in the winter 1788-1789), that needed social adaptations wished by Louis XV and Louis XVI, for which many were reluctant (mainly people), and that generated a new upper-middle class, who had received unadapted education and manipulated concepts without mastering them. This is why happened French Revolution, and, as far as I know, only Louis XVI understood what it was (maybe Louis XVIII? He didn't express it), but it was too late (even at his accession to the throne, it was too late).

For me, the only two clear, precise and unalienable ways of designing a king, are the Fundamental Laws and lottery. The first solution is to me better, because it allows a good education and background.
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  #123  
Old 10-16-2007, 10:21 AM
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What ever happened to the gentleman in India that was discovered to have the true lineage to the French Throne?

The Telegraph - Calcutta : Nation

MM
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  #124  
Old 10-17-2007, 06:01 AM
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No, they do not have the true lineage to the French throne.
They descend from a Jean de Bourbon, who arrived in India and asked for being named so, but ther is no evidence he was a Bourbon.
Further, there is evidence that he was not a legitimate Bourbon, i.e. born in legitimate marriage : as the person whose son he may have been, the connétable (i.e. supreme commander of the armies) de Bourbon, left king of France François I to serve emperor Charles V of Austria and Spain, because his wife died without surviving child and her inheritance was attributed to her cousin, Louise de Savoie, mother of François I. Afterwards, he hoped to marry Charles V's daughter, so he didn't marry again. It is not impossible that he has had an illegitimate son (whose name would have been Bourbon if recognized, but he didn't recognize any bastard, as far as I know).
So, the Bourbons of India may be, whether an illegitimate branch of the Bourbons (so, without access to French throne), whether the descendence of a servant or officer of connétable de Bourbon who wanted to honor his lord by taking his name (if it is the case, I think they honored him greatly), whether the descendence of an affabulator.
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  #125  
Old 10-18-2007, 07:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jurgen Schalck View Post
It is now more than 220 years that France is not aware of a big secret, kept in darkness by the Vatican and high ranked people in our society.

I know this sounds strange as my first official post that I come up with something related to this matter.

Since 1998, I have personaly investigated the matter of the only boy left from the french royal family Louis Charles de Bourbon.

I found many interesting information and evidence of his exitence in exile.

Jurgen Schalck
Mr. Shlack, you are stating here that you believe this exiled person to be the rightful heir to the French Throne, are you also stating that you believe this person to be the so called and prophesised " Great Monarch" that is yet to return from exile and who is of "The House of the White Lillies?" Just curious as to your thoughts or anyone elses!
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  #126  
Old 11-17-2007, 03:06 AM
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Question Question about the succession

HI, I'm new on these boards. I know that by the Salic law, women are not allowed to reign, but what about male descendants of female members of the royal family?
There are still living descendants of King Charles X by his granddaughter Louise Marie, sister of the Comte de Chambord and last male member of the Bourbon house.
There is as well princess Louise Elisabeth, daughter of Louis XV, who married the infante Phillip of Bourbon, son of Phillip V of Spain, who would later become Duke of Parma. They were parents to Maria Louisa who would later become Queen of Spain by her marriage to Charles IV. In that case it would make the Spanish bourbons descendants from Louis XV as well. However they are also descendants of Phillip and therefore unable to claim the Spanish throne.
I know that the debate is between the Orleanists and the Legitimists, but morally shouldn these people have more rights beign direct descendants form the kings than the other two? (Especially descendants of Louise Marie)
I'm not a monarchist and I'm happy with France being a Republic, but I just don't understand by Luis Alfonso can claim the title of king, he's a descendant of Phillip V as is King Juan Carlos, the claim is pointless. King Juan Carlos would have as much right as him, regardless of an older ancestor. I read he has French citizenship. But he only has a French grandmother and both his his parens are Spanish. He doesn't even live in France or Spain. It just doesn't sound right. Thanks for your help
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  #127  
Old 11-17-2007, 05:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alex322 View Post
...but I just don't understand by Luis Alfonso can claim the title of king, he's a descendant of Phillip V as is King Juan Carlos, the claim is pointless. King Juan Carlos would have as much right as him, regardless of an older ancestor. I read he has French citizenship. But he only has a French grandmother and both his his parens are Spanish. He doesn't even live in France or Spain. It just doesn't sound right. Thanks for your help
Luis Alfonso makes no claims to be King Of France. He is the primogeniture representative of the House of Bourbon. As the "senior" Prince of the Bourbon dynasty some see him as the rightful King of France.
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  #128  
Old 11-17-2007, 09:59 AM
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I am writing a popular book on the subject of kingship and would love to learn more about your views on the subject (who is the rightful heir to the Frech throne). It seems to be utterly absurd to even consider an Orléans right to succession after the role their family has played in C18 France. Is there any further reading you can suggest on the subject. I'd be particularly interested in articles/essays discussing the role of today's Comte de Paris. Please help.
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  #129  
Old 11-19-2007, 09:11 PM
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Jurgen, I'm confused. As far as I know, Louis XVI has no descendants. His two surviving children were Louis XVII, who died without issue, and Marie Therese, I believe, did not have any children, either.
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  #130  
Old 11-24-2007, 10:02 AM
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No, Louis XVI had no grandchild.
His brother Charles X had one grandson (without descendance) and one granddaughter, Louise de France, who married the sovereign duke of Parma. They had issue, but as in France women cannot transmit the right to succeed, they are not the first in the order of succession. They are in this order, only by the dukes of Parma, who ara after the duke of Anjou, the spanish royal family, the dukes of Sevilla, and the royal family of Two Sicilies, the others descendants of Louis XIV; and they are before the Orléans family, who are descendants of Louis XIV's younger brother.

Warren, the duke of Anjou said, as his father did before him, "I do not pretend, I am".
This means, that he is not a "claimant", because there is nothing to claim, as he knows perfectly that French succession laws entitle him as king of France, and nobody else.
Of course, political considerations about the situation of France as a republic, may lead one to consider he is not likely to be, one day, de facto king of France. But if this happened, he would be the only person entitled to.
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  #131  
Old 11-24-2007, 10:23 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Thribette View Post
But if this happened, he would be the only person entitled to.
A statement with which most royalists in France disagree. But considering the legitimists would probably prefer the descendants of the favourite dog of Charles X on the throne before they would accept an Orleans as a claimant I suppose Don Luis Alfonso de Borbon y Martinez-Bordiu comes in as a rather handy puppet for them.

Still Luis Alfonso has a healthy attitude concerning his own claims as it isn´t likely that France will be a monarchy any time soon, not under an Orleans, Borbon, Bonaparte or somebody else.
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  #132  
Old 11-24-2007, 11:22 PM
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Thank you, Marengo, for showing what French legitimists (who, as far as I know, are more numerous than orleanists, but this has nothing to do with dynastic laws) can see with orleanists : hate, depreciation, judgements on alleged (and false) intents... Sometimes I find some legitimists too agressive, but they are frank.
To me, Orléans are princes of the blood of France, and in case of extinction of the elder branch (extinction by male descent), they would be called to the throne.
At the moment, they are not because the dynastic laws are such. Point. I have affection for the heir of the French throne, because he is so.
I have also consideration for other dynasts, among them Orléans, simply this consideration is not above the dynastic laws. In France, a king cannot be chosen, he is determined by precise laws.
As you said, the monarchy is not likely to take again its place in France, so... don't you think your hateful declarations are excessive?
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  #133  
Old 11-29-2007, 01:45 AM
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dynastic laws

once again we are back on the problem of dynastic laws in France. Where did anyone found that they had been established in France once and for all. And if it is the case what is the precise year of establishment of these famous dynstic laws. When did anyone said that the king of France could not dispose of their crown ? And that a member of the french royal family could not renounced his right to the succession to the crown ? That law does not exist. How do you think the first capetians seized the crown from the last carolingiens kings of France in The Xth century ? By sending them to convents or by simply ignoring them and keeping the crown by force.
Since 987, year of accession to the french throne by Hugues Capet, teh succession has been governed by a corpus of very oscure customs which were altered when politics or wars needed them to be; It was so imprecise at the time that the fist french capetian kings used to have their elder sons crowned as kings when they were still alive. Before that the last carolingiens and the fist capetiens alternated on the throne during half a century: one carolingien was succeeded by a capetiens and so on...
Need i remind every one on that board that the first capetiens ( and i mean those of the Xth and XIth century) were absolute usurpators of a french crown which belonged at the time to the descendants of Charlemagne.
They took the power and the crown at the time because they were stronger than the last carolingiens.
And do not talk to me of an intervention of god in establishing that famous law the so called legitimists are talking about all the time. god is not french and never was.
Dynastic laws as a formal text explainning the french succession once and for all did not exist untill the first monarchical constitution established after the revolution.
And if you want to mention the custom or the "usages", since the traité d'Utrecht by which the duke of anjou grandson of Louis The XIVth renonced his right to the french crown in order to become king of spain, his descendants have allways been mentionned in all the official act of the french monarchy as "the royal house of spain". Even by LOuis XVI, LOuis XVIII and Charles X.
Last point, if you adopt that "legitimist" line, you must consider that the current heir to the french crown, after don lui alfonso de Borbon y martinez Bordiu, is non other than his majesty the king of spain. And i doubt very much that king juan carlos agrees with that.
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  #134  
Old 11-30-2007, 10:51 AM
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Several false things here...
1) The dynastic laws in France have not been established once, but little by litte, since Hugues Capet, not before. Every time the preexistent laws are insufficient to determine the right king, another laws is established inside this corpus. As it is a convention, if not a faith, that there is a laws we discover little by little, new laws must not be in contradiction with past accessions.

2) Many kings and jurists said and wrote they could not change the order of succession, this includes Louis XIV, Louis XV : "puisque les lois fondamentales de notre royaume nous mettent dans une heureuse impuissance d'aliéner le domaine de notre couronne, nous faisons gloire de reconnoître qu'il nous est encore moins libre de disposer de notre couronne même" and Louis XVIII : "Le droit divin est une conséquence du dogme religieux, de la loi du pays. C'est par cette loi que, depuis huit siècles, la monarchie est héréditaire dans ma famille. Sans cette loi, je ne suis qu'un vieillard infirme, longtmps proscrit, réduit à mendier un asile; mais, par ce droit, le proscrit est roi de France".

3) As far as I know, neither Eudes, nor Robert, Robertians (i.e. ancestors of Capetians), sent anybody to convent nor usurpated the throne. First, they had interbred a lot with Carolingians, and were close parents. Second, Charles the Fat, Carolingian, was dismissed because of his behaviour in front of the Viking invasion, and Eudes was elected instead, because of his heroïc attitude. When Eudes died, his brother Robert refused the crown, and supported Charles the Simple, son of Charles the Fat, but this last king became tyrannic and the nobility revolted, electing Robert I who, this time, accepted. At Robert I's death, his son, Hugues the Great, refused the crown; as the nobility refused to restore Charles the Simple, they elected Raoul of Burgundy, a Niebelungen(?). At Raoul's death, Hugues the Great refused the crown and installed on the throne, Louis IV, son of Charles the Simple. Louis IV had two sons : Lothar and Charles of Lotharingia. Charles left Lothar to ally with their ennemy, Otto II of Germany, and fought against his brother and all the nobility. At Lothar's death, his son Louis V (his father had already crowned him, to avoid elections) became king, but died young, childless. The nobility refused to elect Charles of Lotharingia, in war against them, and elected Hugues the Great's son, Hugues Capet.

4) The customs you cited, neither are obscure, nor were altered. They were completed when necessary, but never altered. The fact is that, by the time of the first Capetians, the very concept of Capetian royalty was uncertain!

5) About God's intervention, it is a matter of faith. One may consider this laws was made, and protected, by God; others can consider it was made by men and protected by God (intervention of St Joan of Arc); other may consider that it was simply made by men, but it is an existing laws, thing highly appreciable at the time of electing a king, letting men picking among candidates always leading to troubles. I note that any idea of an intervention of God upsets you, and meanwhile, your opinion is not the third way.

6) The dynastic laws was supposed to be oral before French Revolution, but in fact, were written and commented so many times... particularly, Louis XIV repeated them in his testament...

7) Of course, Philippe V constituted the royal house of Spain, so what?
About Utrecht renouciation, I think I proved clearly enough they were not valid.

8) It is a fact that the current order of succession to French crown is :
1/ Louis de Bourbon, duke of Anjou
2/ Juan-Carlos, king of Spain;
3/ Philip, his son, prince of Asturias;
4/ Francisco de Borbón y Escasany, duke of Sevilla;
5/ Francisco de Borbón y Hardenberg, his son
etc
I am absolutely not sure that the king Juan-Carlos would be pleased to become de jure king of France; it would create him many real problems on his real Spanish throne, for a very hypothetic French throne. But what he wants is one thing, what he is is another.
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  #135  
Old 11-30-2007, 04:43 PM
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As the King of Spain doesn´t recognise his the claims of Don Luis Alfonso de Borbon y Martinez-Bordiu to the French throne or even to the Cadiz title I suppose you are right and Juan-Carlos would certainly want to get himself mixed up between legetimists and Orleansists.
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  #136  
Old 11-30-2007, 06:33 PM
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King Juan-Carlos has a complex position : personally preferring the Orléans (for reasons, also complex, in his past history), he recognized implicitely Louis' father in 1983 (resolution of the case of the Two Sicilies succession) but when asked, years after, his services wrote that the Spanish royal house recognized the Orléans "as the successors of Louis-Philippe" (what they are, doubtlessly) "because his predecessor Isabel II had recognized Louis-Philippe". In this logic, he would not recognize the Orléans, but the Napoléon family, as Napoléon III reigned after Louis-Philippe and was also recognized by Isabel II...
I must admit that Spanish situation is particular, abit difficult, with a lot of lies in the past, so I wait and see; and I hope Louis and Margarita wil have many sons...
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  #137  
Old 11-30-2007, 08:21 PM
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Juan-Carlos has made it quite clear he does not recognize the claim of Dom Luis Alfonso de Borbon. Luis Alfonso is an extended member of the Spanish royal family and subject to the will of Juan Carlos as the King of Spain and Head of the House of Bourbon.

The French legitimists refuse to recognize the Treaty of Utrecht, but that doesn't make it invalid with regard to renouncing the Bourbon claim to the French throne. The House of Orleans succeeded the Bourbons and Louis-Phillippe was the last King of France.
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  #138  
Old 12-01-2007, 03:26 AM
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I do not think i would say anyone on this board is writing something "false" or that i have "proved" someting. Let's try to be cool on the matter. After all, we are debating in a gentle way about something very hypothetical.
However Thribette i do agree on one point with you :"The dynastic laws in France have not been established once, but little by litte", this has been my point from the beginning.
French monarchy never had an official text or constitution dictating laws of succession to the crown once and for all. These laws were established little by little, and i would add "modified" . The traité d'Utrecht, signed by the new king of spain, the king of France, registrated by the french parlement at begenning of the 18th century, after many years of war in Europe to solve the question of the spanish succession after the death of the last habsbourg, is definitely one those historical events which added to the french dynastic laws. At that very time, one branch of the capetien family became spanish and renounced it's rights to the french crown. That is all.



since Hugues Capet, not before.
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  #139  
Old 12-01-2007, 07:23 AM
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Vincent, I am sorry for having employed the word false, but if you read what I wrote then, I suppose you understood why. Maybe am I taking a bit too seriously the importance of this forum for people's information, so, I thought it was necessary for people who maybe wouldn't have read further, to express this reverve upon your message. About the word proved, I wrote : "I think I proved clearly enough", which is a bit different. It meant that, if you were not convinced by what I had written above about Utrecht, I could try to formulate it differently or give mor sources, but I thought it was not necessary in this message.
About the left of your message, I repeat : the laws were established little by little, but never modified. The treaty of Utrecht added nothing to French dynastic laws, because indisponibility of the crown was already a laws an one could not modify it. More about it in my next message.

BranchG, I wrote what Juan-Carlos had written, it is clearly a recognition of the Orléans, not as heirs of the realm of France, as they pretend today, but as heirs of Louis-Philippe, what they are doubtless.
King Juan-Carlos is not head of the house of Bourbon, and does not pretend to it. If you can see his coat of arms, he did not take the arms of the chief of the House, but kept them "broken" (I don't know the word in English) as of Anjou.
If the Utrecht renounciations had been valid, Louis-Philippe would have succeeded Louis XIX (as Henri V was a descendent of Philip V) but his own children would have been excluded, as Louis-Philippe's wife was a descendent of Philip V. So, people who believe the Utrecht renounciations could be valid, cannot sustain the Orléans claims, as the Orléans are excluded by these renounciations (even the Napoléon family, since the end of the XIXth century!)
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  #140  
Old 12-01-2007, 08:49 AM
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That is most interesting Thribette, this is the coat of arms of the King of Spain, right? Could you point out what you mean with ´broken´? Or is it the wrong coat-of-arms?

Another thing what made me wonder, why is the branch of Luis-Alfono the head of the house of Bourbon, you are right that the King of Spain seems to have that opinion, but why? Wouldn´t the marriage of Prince Jiame be considered morganatic?

Has the King made any comments about the Orleans/Legitimist cause after the death of the Countess of Paris?

Another thing, did the treaty of Utrecht exclude any descendants of Felipe V from inheriting the Spanish throne, or just the members with dynastic rights, so the men untill the constitution was changed in favour of Isabel II?
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