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  #81  
Old 09-09-2006, 08:14 AM
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Quote:
According to Theroff, Jean-Christophe has an unmarried uncle, Jérôme, born 1957, so two heirs.
As I have correctly understood, Jerome Bonaparte still single and childless by the 50 years. I am afraid, that it never will change the marital status. So Jean-Christophe the unique napoleonic successor.
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  #82  
Old 09-09-2006, 08:48 AM
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Originally Posted by Russian
As I have correctly understood, Jerome Bonaparte still single and childless by the 50 years. I am afraid, that it never will change the marital status. So Jean-Christophe the unique napoleonic successor.
As long as Jean-Christophe is alive and able to have a descendancy, it is pointless to discuss of Jérôme like heir of the Bonaparte family.
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  #83  
Old 09-13-2006, 11:27 AM
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Originally Posted by Next Star
Those are in first line to a abolished monarchy throne are not heirs or those behind them they are called pretenders because their monarchies have been abolished. If don't believe me go to Answers.com and look up heir-apparent and heir-presumptive scrolll down and you see those who are in line to a abolished monarchythrone are called pretenders.
You are right in theory. But when there are several pretenders, we use the term heir where we would use pretender in other cases. And then we use the term pretender to call one of the people pretending to be the heir.
For example, their is a pretender to the throne of Prussia, but for France or Italy there are two potentials heirs, who are called pretenders. The count of Paris claims he's the heir because he believes his branch, and not Luis Alfonso's one, is the one who should inherit the french throne if monarchy was reinstated. I think we can use the term heir for such cases as there is a disput about the owners of heritage of the late kings.
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  #84  
Old 09-14-2006, 04:08 AM
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Thanks for the explanation Danielane.

To avoid the thread being sidetracked into an argument over semantics, we'll leave further discussion of the use of these words to another time, and another place.

I'll just point out that the thread title came from a question posed by a member who created the original thread (into which other posts have been merged).
As most people appear to understand the meaning and intent of the question, no change is required.

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  #85  
Old 09-15-2006, 12:16 PM
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First post. Can anyone tell me how the Maison de Savoie fits into the French succession issue, if at all? Forgive my ignorance, but various people appear on FRENCH TV who are all presented as successors; recently a member of the Savoie branch was introduced as such... (maybe wrongly)
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  #86  
Old 09-16-2006, 05:09 AM
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The French succession concerns three families: The Orléans, the Bonapartes, and the Bourbons (in the person of Luis Alfonso).
The Royal House of Savoy, which is the former reigning House of the Kingdom of Italy, doesn't enter into it.
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  #87  
Old 09-17-2006, 08:29 PM
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I wonder who would be King of France if the monarchy were to be rstored and also who would be the heir ? And if they would allow both male and female descents to be in the line of succession to the throne.
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  #88  
Old 09-18-2006, 12:14 PM
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That's the whole point of this thread's disscusion.
There are two Pretenders to the French Throne.

One of them is Comte de Paris, the other is the so-called Spanish line.
After the death of the childless legitimist pretender "Henry V", Comte de Chambord (grandson of King Charles X of France), most accepted his selection of the heir, the Orleanist Pretender, Comte de Paris (grandson of King Louis-Phillipe (he descends from the second son of King Louis XIII). Few, however argue that the rightful descendant is the descendant of Louis XIV (Spanish line).

The point of the argument is that Prince Philip (King Philip V of Spain) renounced any claims (including future) to the French throne, upon becoming the King of Spain. Therefore the Dukes of Orleans were recognized as the rightul heirs (after the direct line) before the French Revolution. The opposite group says that this renunciation was invalid and impossible (some also point that Philippe Egalite and Louis-Philippe forfeited any rights to the throne for disloyalty during the FR).
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  #89  
Old 09-18-2006, 12:34 PM
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How is Louis Alphonse senior to Juan Carlos in the French succession?
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  #90  
Old 09-18-2006, 02:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ysbel
How is Louis Alphonse senior to Juan Carlos in the French succession?
His grandfather was older than Juan Carlos's father, but he had to give up his rights due to health problems (he was deaf).
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  #91  
Old 09-19-2006, 03:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ysbel
How is Louis Alphonse senior to Juan Carlos in the French succession?
Another way of explaining it:
King Alfonso XIII had 3 sons:

1. Alfonso (1907-1938) renounced rights to the Throne of Spain; no issue.

2. Jaime (1908-1975) renounced rights to the Throne of Spain but assumed the title of Duke of Anjou as primogeniture representative of the House of Bourbon; two sons, the eldest being:
> Alfonso (1936-1989) succeeded his father as the primogeniture representative of the House of Bourbon; had one surviving son:
>> LUIS ALFONSO (1974- ) Duke of Anjou

3. Juan (1913-1993) Count of Barcelona; one surviving son:
> KING JUAN CARLOS (1938- )

So Luis Alfonso is dynastically significant in two ways: he has the "Legitimist" claim to the Crowns of both France and Spain as the senior primogeniture descendant of the House of Capet (Bourbon), and as the senior primogeniture descendant of King Alfonso XIII. His mere existence is seen as a "threat" by both the French and Spanish royals. Which is why the Spanish Court keeps him at arms length, and why he was more or less "stripped" of the HRH he previously bore, and downgraded to "Excellency" in 1987. The naming by the Comte de Paris of his nephew Prince Charles-Philippe d'Orléans as a rival duc d'Anjou in 2004 was an unsubtle attempt at undermining Luis Alfonso by the French Orléanists.
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  #92  
Old 09-23-2006, 06:55 PM
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Ah now I see! Thanks for the explanation Warren! So Luis Alfonso would have been King of Spain if his grandfather had not renounced the rights to the Spanish throne. Why was that? Was Jaime a hemophiliac?

That still doesn't answer why Jaime didn't renounce his rights in favor of his son.

Back to the French question, the plot gets thicker.
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  #93  
Old 09-23-2006, 07:41 PM
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The heir to the french throne will not be recongize as head of state upon him/her becoming king/queen because their monarchy is abolished.
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  #94  
Old 09-24-2006, 09:24 PM
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Originally Posted by ysbel
Ah now I see! Thanks for the explanation Warren! So Luis Alfonso would have been King of Spain if his grandfather had not renounced the rights to the Spanish throne. Why was that? Was Jaime a hemophiliac?
Duh, I just saw your previous post, Marie! I was reading challenged when I posted that! So Jaime was deaf. But I still wonder why Jaime didn't renounce his rights in favor of his son?
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  #95  
Old 09-24-2006, 11:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ysbel
So Jaime was deaf. But I still wonder why Jaime didn't renounce his rights in favor of his son?
Jaime renounced his Spanish rights in 1933 and didn't marry until 1935. It would have made for a rather unique (read untenable) dynastic situation if he had claimed (or reserved) succession rights for unborn children while still unmarried.
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  #96  
Old 06-06-2007, 04:52 PM
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I don't know if it was posted before but I've just found it on wikipedia:
Line of succession to the French throne (Legitimist) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
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  #97  
Old 06-06-2007, 06:14 PM
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Marlene has posted an excellent remark about this matter on the Franco Iberian Royals MB, which pretty much sums up how I feel about the matter too..

Quote:
(.......) Luis Alfonso is a commoner. Let's put it this way, and make it rather simple. The last king of France was Louis Philippe of the Orleans Branch. There is a direct line of descent to the present Count of Paris. Luis Alfonso, who is Spanish, is a descendant of Philippe Duke of Anjou who renounced his rights and the rights of his descendants when he became king of Spain. If Louis Philippe had not lost his throne, and France remained a monarchy, the count of Paris would be king today. Period. Full stop. Luis Alfonso's father, Jaime, was the second son of Alfonso XIII, who in 1933, renounced his right of succession (and those of his descendants) because of his medical issues (deaf and mute). He married unequally, and his father, the king, in exile, pointed out that Jaime's children were not royal. After Alfonso's death, Jaime tried to reclaim the Spanish throne (his younger brother was the accepted heir), as well as the French throne and a few other places too. He was certainly poorly advised, and also suffered from mental health issues. The French throne succession took a detour after Philippe became king of Spain. Luis Alfonso was born in Spain, to a sadly dysfunctional family. His father was responsible for the car crash that killed his brother. His parents divorced. His mother has married several more times. None of this is his fault, of course. But he is Spanish, a great-grandson of King Alfonso XIII ...has a very distinguised genealogical line - and interesting historical line (also a descendant of Franco), but none of it makes him the de jure king of France. The present Count of Paris also has issues, and also grew up in a dysfunctional family ...but he is French - and his family has served France, including the military, and his family was exiled because of their position concerning the throne.
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  #98  
Old 06-06-2007, 06:22 PM
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Thanks for the remind it
So....If you have a surname de Bourbon (Borbon etc.) you have rights to the French throne - no matter how the true really is.

What about other pretenders?
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  #99  
Old 06-06-2007, 07:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Next Star
The heir to the french throne will not be recongize as head of state upon him/her becoming king/queen because their monarchy is abolished.
What the need to say that? We all know what happened in France history...But things are -luckyly! -static in History, and nobody really knows what could happen.

However, I dont think that the King or Queen of France (if it must be one), could be find among the Bourbons... They lost their touch with their duties. Who could honestly thing that Luis Alfonso de Borbón could be this proud King of France who should return to a past of glory? Ugh...with all my respect, I cant seriously thing about it, whithout feeling like crying and laughing at the same time...He is not a little bit interested in asuming an historic role, but in living whithout too much problems with the money of his rich Venezuelian father-in-law.

I think that M. Count of Paris is more suited for the "job". He is very conscient of who he is and what his family made for France (leting aside Philippe Egailté, a disgusting character for me). His father was interested in Politics and so he is. Even if he never said it, I think the current Count of Paris, supports "Action Française", like his father.His mother was also a great fighter for Monarchy.

As for the Bonapartes...Hmmm. They must have supporters, no doubt. But I never liked them (not even when Napoleon was the Emperor). THis "kinda Republic Monarchy" was not serious, even if it have some achievements.

Vanesa.
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Old 06-08-2007, 03:31 PM
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Marlene's post, above cited, is a accumulation of false assertions!
Let us see...

She wrote :
"Luis Alfonso is a commoner. Let's put it this way, and make it rather simple. The last king of France was Louis Philippe of the Orleans Branch."

Louis-Philippe has never been, or pretended to be, king of France. He was "king of the French" in a new regime, as well as later, Napoléon III was "emperor of the French". It is well different! And Louis-Philippe recognized that after the extinction of the elder branch, his own branch would be preceeded by the on descending from Philippe V...

She wrote :
"There is a direct line of descent to the present Count of Paris."

They are princes of the French royal family, in a very far position.


She wrote :
"Luis Alfonso, who is Spanish, is a descendant of Philippe Duke of Anjou who renounced his rights and the rights of his descendants when he became king of Spain."

1)Luis Alfonso (Louis Alphonse) is French as well as Spanish in terms of modern nationality, but this has nothing to do with dynastic rights. For French dynastic laws, he is French as a Bourbon.

2) Philippe duke of Anjou, when he became king Felipe V of Spain in 1700, kept his rights on the French throne, as did before him Louis VIII (father of Saint Louis), king of England, François II (first husband of Mary Stuart), king of England, Scotland and Ireland, Henri III, king of Poland, and Louis-Alphonse de Bourbon (father of Henri IV), king of Navarra.

3) King Felipe V of Spain was forced, in 1712, by queen Anne of England, to renounce his roight on the French throne, for him and all his descendants. a) Such a renunciation is invalid in French dynastic laws; even lord Bolingbroke, queen Anne's foreign secretary, tried to make her understand this evidence.
b) This renunciation was for all descendants of king Felipe V; this includes all the Orléans family, as king Louis-Philippe of the French, their ancestor, married princess Amalia of Two-Sicilies, a descendant of Felipe V's. Enven the Napoléon princes descend from king Felipe V.


Marlene wrote :
"
If Louis Philippe had not lost his throne, and France remained a monarchy, the count of Paris would be king today. Period. Full stop."

He would be "king of the French", not "king of France". Still an usurpator.


She wrote :
"Luis Alfonso's father, Jaime, was the second son of Alfonso XIII, who in 1933, renounced his right of succession (and those of his descendants) because of his medical issues (deaf and mute)."

Alfonso XIII's first son, died childless in 1938.
Prince Jaime was Louis Alphonse's grandfather, not father.
He renounced his Spanish rights, not the French ones (any way, he couldn't have done so). Even for Spanish rights, his renunciation was invalid because not ratified by the Cortès (spanish Parliament).


Marlene wrote :
"He married unequally, and his father, the king, in exile, pointed out that Jaime's children were not royal."

In Spanish laws, unequal marriages did not deprive princes of their rights in succession, except if an exclusion was voted by the Cortès, which did not happen. Anyway, the marriage was not "highly unequal", nor was it unauthorised, so it is highly improbable that the Cortès would have accepted to exclude him.


She wrote :
"After Alfonso's death, Jaime tried to reclaim the Spanish throne (his younger brother was the accepted heir), as well as the French throne and a few other places too."

He was the legitimate successor of Spanish throne, until his acceptation of anew form of monarchy with Juan-Carlos as a king, in 1969.
He was also successor of the French throne, as was his father since 1936 (extinction of the previous line), and as his father affirmed. I was never entered of "a few other places too".


She wrote :
"He was certainly poorly advised, and also suffered from mental health issues."

I have never heard about "mental health issues". Far the contrary. I know two people who were close to him, and describe him as an intelligent, sensible prince.


Marlene wrote :
"The French throne succession took a detour after Philippe became king of Spain."


She wrote :
"Luis Alfonso was born in Spain, to a sadly dysfunctional family. His father was responsible for the car crash that killed his brother. His parents divorced. His mother has married several more times. None of this is his fault, of course."

Thank you, Marlene, for your elegance.
His father would drive fast, as it was usual in these times in spain, and this killed his son. His parents divorced, like many other, including Orléans, and this has nothig to see with royal capacity. His mother married twice more. Extraordinary, isn't it? I suppose that Marlene knows nobody in such case, this must be why she says "several more times".
Anyway, all these things are absolutely out of consideration regarding the french succession laws.


She wrote :
"But he is Spanish, a great-grandson of King Alfonso XIII"

He is French, regarding French dynastic laws, and has also the French nationality, but this has no importance in dynastic succession.


Marlene wrote :
"...has a very distinguised genealogical line - and interesting historical line (also a descendant of Franco), but none of it makes him the de jure king of France. "

What makes him de jure king of France, is the fact that he is the first in male primogeniture of the legitimate Capetians.


She wrote :
"The present Count of Paris also has issues, and also grew up in a dysfunctional family ...but he is French - and his family has served France, including the military, and his family was exiled because of their position concerning the throne."

Both are French.
King Alfonso XIII received the military medal from French government for his action in WWI, his son Jaime, of course, was disabled, and Louis Alphonse's father, Alphonse, was born in 1936, too young for WWII.
Anyway, this is absolutly exterior to the succession.

Anything else?
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