The Royal Forums Coat of Arms

Go Back   The Royal Forums > Non-Reigning Houses > Royal Families of France

Join The Royal Forums Today
Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
 
  #61  
Old 07-21-2006, 02:45 PM
Warren's Avatar
Administrator
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Sydney, Australia
Posts: 15,299
Quote:
Originally Posted by Russian
And unless Two Sicilies not Bourbon? Unless this family does not occur from the French king Louis XIV and its grandson of the Spanish king Philippe V? Unless Duke of Calabria cannot be the successor of the French throne after Luis Alphonso and the Spanish king Juan Carlos?
Yes, the Two Sicilies are Bourbons (as are the Parmas), but far enough removed that we don't need to take them into calculation as potential successors unless there is a major dynastic catastrophe.
__________________

__________________
Seeking information? Check out the extensive Royal A-Z
Reply With Quote
  #62  
Old 07-21-2006, 02:50 PM
magnik's Avatar
Heir Apparent
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Warsaw, Poland
Posts: 3,681
What I've read on An Online Gotha

"The headship of the Royal House of France is an interesting question. Leaving aside the dilemma caused by the Bonaparte claimant, who is clearly an heir to hereditary monarchs of two separate French Empires, the question of who is heir to the claim of the House of Capet, which ruled France for half the Christian era, is the subject of great dispute.
Probably the majority of French monarchists support the claims of the Orléanist line, headed by Henri, Comte de Paris, who has assumed the title "Duc de France". He is clearly the heir of Louis Philippe, King of the French, who ruled from 1830 to 1848. He is also the heir to the legitimist line of the House of Capet if the renunciation of King Felipe V of Spain to the French throne was valid. Eminent and learned scholars have argued that no such resignation was valid and that thus King Felipe's heir male inherited the Legitimist claim on the death of Henri V, so long, at least, as the claim is not united to another throne. The heir male of King Felipe is Don Luis Alfonso de Borbón.
Since reasonable persons can make valid arguments in favor of either claimant, both will be presented here in this article. Furthermore, if Luis Alfonso is entitled to be considered a French dynast, then so are all the legitimate male-line descendants of King Felipe, and, indeed, of Hugues Capet (e.g., the Seville, Roccaguglielma, Galliera, and Infant Gabriel lines). For other apparent dynasts of the House of France, then, see the articles on Spain, Two Sicilies, Parma, Brazil and Luxemburg.
Historically, no such title existed as "Prince of France". The members of the Orléanist branch who are not products of morganatic marriages have been accorded the title of Prince[ss] d'Orléans, Royal Highness, unless other titles are shown and the children of the head and the heir apparent of that line have now been accorded the title Prince[ss] of France, Royal Highness."
http://pages.prodigy.net/ptheroff/gotha/france.html
__________________

__________________
Reply With Quote
  #63  
Old 07-21-2006, 03:03 PM
magnik's Avatar
Heir Apparent
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Warsaw, Poland
Posts: 3,681
And here. Maybe you know that or maybe no but few info here http://www.chivalricorders.org/royal...e/frenlegt.htm

"The claim of Louis-Alphonse de Bourbon to be Head of the Royal House of Bourbon and representative of the Monarchy founded by Hugues Capet is based on the fact that he is the latter's senior male primogeniture heir by legitimate descent. He is a Roman Catholic, and a French citizen. The objectionss to his claim made by the Orléanists, simply stated are based on the renunciation of 1712-13 made by Philip V of Spain and their inclusion as a provision of the Treaty of Utrecht, and the foreign nationality of many of his ancestors. However (i) the renunciations of 1712-13 were void from the moment they were signed, and even the Treaty of Utrecht could not affect the Fundamental Laws (just as the Treaty of Troyes of 1420 could not do so) (ii) any possible validity of those renunciations was rendered void by (a) the failure of the reciprocal actions required under their terms [...] and (b) by the repeal of semi-Salic Law in Spain 1830/33, and (iii) the foreign nationality of intervening generations cannot stand in the path of a Dynast's succession any more than it can prevent a foreigner from inheriting a French title.[4] For these self-same reasons there was no impediment to the succession of the Infante Don Juan in 1883, nor of successive senior representatives of the House of Bourbon to the Headship of the Royal House of France. The Family of Orléans accordingly follows eventually in succession after the most junior members of the Family of Bourbon-Parma.
The heir of the Orléans family, then Count of Clermont (now Count of Paris) took action in the French courts to try and prevent the Head of the House of Bourbon using the title of Duke of Anjou and the plain Arms of France. He failed in his efforts to persuade the French Courts to support his case (see statement by the Secretariat of the Mgr Alphonse de Bourbon [...] More recently, on the death of the Count o Paris, the Duke of Anjou offered his personal condolences to the new Head of the Branch of Orléans, thus improving the relationship between the two lines which had been damaged by the earlier court case and other actions. The present Duke of Anjou is a frequent visitor to France and participates in many public functions, including attending as the guest of the French government the annual anniversary Mass of the foundation of the Les Invalides as the senior representative of Louis XIV. He is also a member of the French Society of the Cincinnati as the Representative of Louis XVI."
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #64  
Old 07-21-2006, 03:22 PM
Toledo's Avatar
Royal Highness
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Spain, residing in the USA, United States
Posts: 1,522
Is good to know that young Luis Alfonso is trying to end all these bad blood in the family and make peace with his cousins. Too bad that pride and ambition precedes good manners with some royals.
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #65  
Old 07-22-2006, 10:31 AM
Warren's Avatar
Administrator
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Sydney, Australia
Posts: 15,299
Quote:
Originally Posted by Toledo
Is good to know that young Luis Alfonso is trying to end all these bad blood in the family and make peace with his cousins. Too bad that pride and ambition precedes good manners with some royals.
So how must Luis Alfonso have felt when the Comte de Paris named his nephew, Prince Charles-Philippe d'Orléans, the "rival" Duc d'Anjou in 2004?
It seems that LA's attempts to "make peace with his [French] cousins" was to no avail, as the Orléans response was a heavy-handed and calculated affront.
__________________
Seeking information? Check out the extensive Royal A-Z
Reply With Quote
  #66  
Old 07-23-2006, 04:23 PM
Stefan's Avatar
Super Moderator
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Esslingen, Germany
Posts: 2,318
Quote:
Originally Posted by Warren
The next most senior male Bourbon after Luis Alfonso is none other than King Juan Carlos; the Prince of the Asturias is next, and after him the line goes back to the male issue of King Fernando VII, which brings us to Don Alfonso de Orléans-Bourbon y Ferrara-Pignatelli, 7th Duke of Galliera (b 1968), who is a descendant of Queen Victoria through his great-grandmother Princess Beatrice of Edinburgh, Princess of Great Britain and Princess of Saxe-Coburg and Gotha.
But there is no direct male line. The descendants of Isabel II. are the male line because she married her cousin, but her sister didn't so it is the female line from there one. After the prince of asturias should come the Duke of Sevilla.
__________________
Stefan

Royal Travel and Events

Reply With Quote
  #67  
Old 07-24-2006, 11:16 PM
Russian's Avatar
Gentry
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Russia, Russia
Posts: 81
Wait!
I once again have closely read through the document resulted by you on the French laws of inheritance of the French throne. Therefore I have some questions.
1) These laws exclude laws of succession of women on the French throne?
2) If grandson Louis XIV has borrowed the Spanish throne and could not apply simultaneously for the French crown on conditions of Utrecht contract, all the same new Spanish king from the French dynasty remains a member French Hugo Capet At home, all the same it kept the rights to the French throne, all the same its descendants are considered as members of Hugo Capet House and have the right to borrow the French throne?
3) the Spanish King Ferdinand has entered the so-called Pragmatical sanction in 1834 on which its daughter Isabella became the successor of the Spanish throne owing to absence of man's posterity at this Spanish king. But unless it did not contradict the French laws?
4) Why carlist supporters considered the Pragmatical sanction as infringement of laws of inheritance of a throne?
5) why carlist supporters lifted revolts against queen Isabella with the purpose to protect the rights carlist applicants for the Spanish throne?
6) whether carlist applicants for the Spanish throne have been recognized Le Comte Chambord as successors of the French throne in 1883?
7) why Luis Alphonco it is considered chapter Hugo Capet of the House, in fact it is the lineal descendant of queen Isabella?

I shall be glad, if you will answer me these questions in the same sequence, beginning from the first and finishing the last.
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #68  
Old 07-24-2006, 11:30 PM
Toledo's Avatar
Royal Highness
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Spain, residing in the USA, United States
Posts: 1,522
Quote:
Originally Posted by Warren
So how must Luis Alfonso have felt when the Comte de Paris named his nephew, Prince Charles-Philippe d'Orléans, the "rival" Duc d'Anjou in 2004?
It seems that LA's attempts to "make peace with his [French] cousins" was to no avail, as the Orléans response was a heavy-handed and calculated affront.
I saw the pictures in Point de Vue of that event. Maybe is to psyche Luis Alfonso out and make feel unwelcome in France? After all, he was the one that took main stage on the pictures involving the restoration/recognition of the heart of Louis XVII, the child heir of the last 18th century King and Marie Antoinette. So, the Orleans could be trying to save face by slapping Luis Alfonso's with the title thing. Kind of childish when you think about it. And the family feud goes to all branches because the Orleans were partisans of King Juan Carlos over the Duke of Cadiz (Luis Alfonso's father), who by then was considered the senior male of the senior Bourbon line, not seen with good eyes by any other branch that disputed his legitimacy...namely the Orleans again.

But the interesting thing is that Luis Alfonso, who lost his father and older brother in horrendous accidents, does not seem to care much about their opinion. Live and let live but he is the only one making an attempt to find some peace within this family. You know that when he was invited to the wedding of Felipe and Letizia this was to be the event to introduce his girlfriend to the family and he was limited to one seat, no guests. Once more, kind of childish when you think about it.
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #69  
Old 07-25-2006, 11:22 AM
magnik's Avatar
Heir Apparent
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Warsaw, Poland
Posts: 3,681
Maybe you find some more info here, Russian and fellows:

http://www.heraldica.org/topics/france/
http://library.byu.edu/%7Erdh/eurodocs/france.html

(Many links on French.)
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #70  
Old 08-07-2006, 12:31 AM
Aristocracy
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Longueuil, Canada
Posts: 120
According to Wikipedia.com, Henri d'Orléans, Earl of Paris would be the true hier to the French Throne, but I dont know if this is right
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #71  
Old 08-07-2006, 04:25 AM
Warren's Avatar
Administrator
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Sydney, Australia
Posts: 15,299
Quote:
Originally Posted by sirmax
According to Wikipedia.com, Henri d'Orléans, Earl of Paris would be the true hier to the French Throne, but I dont know if this is right
For the Orléanists, the Comte de Paris is indeed the rightful claimant, being the direct descendant of the last King of the French, Louis-Philippe.
Of course the Bonapartists have their Pretender, Prince Charles Napoleon, as do the legitimists, who support Luis Alfonso.
It's a three-horse race with the finish line nowhere in sight.
__________________
Seeking information? Check out the extensive Royal A-Z
Reply With Quote
  #72  
Old 08-12-2006, 12:10 PM
Nobility
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Strasbourg, France
Posts: 407
Magnik the info you posted is treasure.
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #73  
Old 08-12-2006, 03:03 PM
Henri M.'s Avatar
Royal Highness
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Eindhoven / Maastricht, Netherlands
Posts: 1,896
It is not so complicated at all.

The straight line of direct male hereditary successors from Louis XIV became extinct in 1883 with the death of the Comte de Chambord.

The inheritance of the throne of France logically should have gone to the most senior closest male in the House of Bourbon.
And that was the Infante Carlos of Spain, Conde de Montizon.

But... but... but...

A grandson of Louis XIV (the second son of the Dauphin), the Duc d'Anjou, became King of Spain. Having a Bourbon king on both the French and Spanish thrones disturbed the balance of power in Europe and a Grand Alliance of European nations united against this. As a result the Treaty of Utrecht of 1713 was agreed, meaning that the Duc d'Anjou and his hereditary successors and their descendants lost their claim on the throne of France for ever.

Because of this, the -logical- most senior Bourbon line in Spain had to be ignored and the second senior line, the Orléans (descending from Louis XIV's younger brother the Duc d'Orléans) became the rightful claimants on the throne of France.

The supporters of the Anjou line stress the seniority of his bloodline but 'forget' the Treaty of Utrecht.
The supporters of the Orléans line accept the seniority of the Anjou line but point to the Treaty of Utrecht.

Louis Alphonse de Bourbon, Duc d'Anjou sees himself as the most senior of all Bourbons and therefore King of France and Spain, neglecting the Treaty of Utrecht.
Henri de Bourbon de Orléans sees himself as the rightful King of France pointing to the Treaty of Utrecht which excludes the Spanish branch.
Juan Carlos de Borbón sees himself as the rightful Spanish King, neglecting the Anjou claim that he is not the most senior male, due to his descendance from Queen Isabel II of Spain.
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #74  
Old 08-31-2006, 07:09 AM
Russian's Avatar
Gentry
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Russia, Russia
Posts: 81
Excuse me, but I have questions. Really legitimists and orleanists cannot come to the compromise agreement concerning the successor of the French crown? What were conditions of Utrecht contract concerning the Spanish and French crowns? Tell, please, refusal of Felipe V the French crown extends only on the subsequent Spanish kings and their successors or on all Spanish royal family?
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #75  
Old 08-31-2006, 07:32 AM
Royal Highness
 
Join Date: May 2003
Location: N/A, France
Posts: 1,641
There won't be any compromise agreement between the pretenders and their supporters. Noone of the supporters of both side would accept it.
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #76  
Old 08-31-2006, 08:11 AM
Russian's Avatar
Gentry
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Russia, Russia
Posts: 81
What French monarchists in the numerical majority - legitimists or orleanists?
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #77  
Old 08-31-2006, 09:22 AM
Next Star's Avatar
Courtier
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: ******, United States
Posts: 874
Those are in first line to a abolished monarchy throne are not heirs or those behind them they are called pretenders because their monarchies have been abolished. If don't believe me go to Answers.com and look up heir-apparent and heir-presumptive scrolll down and you see those who are in line to a abolished monarchythrone are called pretenders.
__________________
Patience is a virtue.

I'm head of a dynastic house no matter what others say.
Princess Kamorrissa,Countess of Welle
Reply With Quote
  #78  
Old 09-05-2006, 10:06 AM
Commoner
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: , United States
Posts: 32
What is the lines of succession to the Headship of the French Royal House, after Prince Louis Alphonso of Bourbon, Duke of Anjou and Bourbon; Prince Henri of Bourbon-Orleans, Count of Paris and Prince Charles Napoleon of France?
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #79  
Old 09-08-2006, 05:33 AM
Russian's Avatar
Gentry
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Russia, Russia
Posts: 81
Quote:
What is the lines of succession to the Headship of the French Royal House, after Prince Louis Alphonso of Bourbon, Duke of Anjou and Bourbon; Prince Henri of Bourbon-Orleans, Count of Paris and Prince Charles Napoleon of France?
Jean-Christophe is the unique napoleonic successor. As to Orleans, I think, someone should be one of numerous descendants of 11 children of the previous Parisian count. If Luis Alphonso will be the father only girls or remains childless, I think, someone from Spanish (either from Parma, or from Sicilian) relatives becomes legitimist pretendent on the French throne.
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #80  
Old 09-08-2006, 04:49 PM
Courtier
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Houston, United States
Posts: 853
Quote:
Originally Posted by Russian
Jean-Christophe is the unique napoleonic successor.
According to Theroff, Jean-Christophe has an unmarried uncle, Jérôme, born 1957, so two heirs.
__________________

__________________
Kelly D
Reply With Quote
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Stuart Succession and Jacobite Pretenders hillary_nugent British Royal History 135 07-02-2014 01:40 PM
Queen Victoria (1819-1901) TOMMIX British Royal History 312 06-15-2014 09:58 PM
Monarchy and Restoration; Rival Families and Claimants aj00192557 The Imperial Family of Russia 911 05-23-2014 09:26 PM




Additional Links
Popular Tags
birth charlene chris o'neill crown prince felipe crown prince frederik crown prince haakon crown princess letizia crown princess mary crown princess mette-marit crown princess victoria current events fashion grand duchess maria teresa grand duke henri hohenzollern infanta elena infanta sofia jordan kate middleton king abdullah ii king carl xvi gustav king felipe king felipe vi king harald king juan carlos king philippe king willem-alexander luxembourg olympic games ottoman picture of the month pom president komorowski prince albert prince albert ii prince carl philip prince constantijn prince felipe prince floris prince laurent prince pieter-christiaan princess princess alexia (2005 -) princess anita princess ariane princess beatrix princess catharina-amalia princess charlene princess claire princess laurentien princess letizia princess mabel princess madeleine princess margriet princess marie princess mary queen letizia queen mathilde queen maxima queen paola queen rania queen silvia queen sofia royal russia spain state visit wedding william winter olympics 2014


Our Communities

Our communities encompass many different hobbies and interests, but each one is built on friendly, intelligent membership.

» More about our Communities

Automotive Communities

Our Automotive communities encompass many different makes and models. From U.S. domestics to European Saloons.

» More about our Automotive Communities

RV & Travel Trailer Communities

Our RV & Travel Trailer sites encompasses virtually all types of Recreational Vehicles, from brand-specific to general RV communities.

» More about our RV Communities

Marine Communities

Our Marine websites focus on Cruising and Sailing Vessels, including forums and the largest cruising Wiki project on the web today.

» More about our Marine Communities


Copyright 2002-2012 Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -4. The time now is 09:23 PM.

Social Knowledge Networks

eXTReMe Tracker
Powered by vBulletin
Copyright ©2000 - 2014
Jelsoft Enterprises

Royal News Delivered to your Email!

You can get the latest Royal News right in your inbox.

unsusbcribe at anytime with one click

Close [X]