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  #41  
Old 07-08-2006, 06:25 AM
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The title of Duke of France was invented by the Bourbon-Orléans, a junior line of the Holy House of Bourbon and descendants of Louis-Philippe of Orleans, Philippe Egalité, who voted for the death of his cousin King Louis XVI. The Bourbon-Orléans are regicides and grave-diggers of the French monarchy.

It should be known that the act of advent of King Juan Carlos of Spain was contresigned by his cousin, Prince Alphonse of Bourbon, Louis XX father, in his capacity as the Head of the House of Bourbon of Spain. All those who know the monarchist traditions know that this counter-signature is an acceptance of the junior line of King Alphonso XIII on the throne of Spain by the elder of the senior line. The Head of the House of Bourbon of Spain is in fact a Royal Highness.

The Bourbons of Spain, descendants of Philippe of Anjou (King Philippe V of Spain), King Louis XIV grandson, are the senior line of the Holy House of Bourbon. The Bourbon-Orleans, descendants of Philippe of Orleans, King Louis XIV younger brother, are a junior line and will always remain it. They can call themselves Duke of France, Family of France, and so on...That will not change anything to the fact that they are juniors.

His Royal Highness Louis XX, the elder of all the Capetians, Prince and Head of the Holy House of Bourbon, is recognized like such by everyone in the whole world, even by the French republican authorities.

He is received by the Pope in Vatican City as the Head of the Holy House of Bourbon. He has the support of the large majority of French monarchists.

Par la Grâce de Dieu, Louis-le-14ème.
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  #42  
Old 07-08-2006, 09:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Louis14
His Royal Highness Louis XX, the elder of all the Capetians, Prince and Head of the Holy House of Bourbon, is recognized like such by everyone in the whole world, even by the French republican authorities.

He is received by the Pope in Vatican City as the Head of the Holy House of Bourbon. He has the support of the large majority of French monarchists.

Par la Grâce de Dieu, Louis-le-14ème.
Let's be honest, very few people support Don Luis Alfonso's claims as Duc d'Anjou. In fact, the French Republic doesn't even recognize royal or noble titles so they definately doen't recognize him. He doesn't live in France, he doesn't even live in Spain, but in Venezuela and Palm Beach with his heiress wife. He rarely carries out any duties associated with his claim. And he is not a prince or royal highness, the only title he is entitled to is: Don Luís Alfonso de Borbón y Martínez-Bordiú.

And could you please tell me when Luis has ever been received by the Pope as the Head of the House of Bourbon?
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  #43  
Old 07-08-2006, 12:04 PM
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I've never seen the Bourbons referred to as the "Holy House of Bourbon", but there you go.

In regard to Luis Alfonso my understanding is that the Spanish Court makes a point of referring to him as 'Excellency' which underlines their refusal to recognise him as a Royal Highness. In effect at the age of 13 he was stripped of the HRH when the King restricted the style to that of his father by making it 'ad personam' in 1987.

Poor Luis Alfonso, he has never made any claims to either the Spanish or French thrones, yet is seen as a dynastic threat by both Bourbon and Orléans, just because he exists. If he hadn't died in a car accident at the age of 11 then it would be Francisco de Bourbon, LA's elder brother, who would today be cast in the role of villain (or rightful King of France).
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  #44  
Old 07-08-2006, 12:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Benjamin
Let's be honest, very few people support Don Luis Alfonso's claims as Duc d'Anjou. In fact, the French Republic doesn't even recognize royal or noble titles so they definately doen't recognize him. He doesn't live in France, he doesn't even live in Spain, but in Venezuela and Palm Beach with his heiress wife. He rarely carries out any duties associated with his claim. And he is not a prince or royal highness, the only title he is entitled to is: Don Luís Alfonso de Borbón y Martínez-Bordiú.

And could you please tell me when Luis has ever been received by the Pope as the Head of the House of Bourbon?

Rather than to dispute with you, please try to be informed on the topicality of Louis XX.

I am myself a French monarchist, and for French monarchists, Louis XX, Duke of Anjou, like his paternal grandfather and his father, is the Head of the House of Bourbon.

Prince Alphonse of Bourbon, Louis XX father, contresigned the acceptance act of his cousin, King Juan Carlos of Spain, on July 21, 1969. The members of the Royal family of Spain know what that means.

Don Jaime, the oldest son of King Alphonso XIII of Spain and Louis XX grandfather, who was deaf-mute, was constrained to give up his rights on the throne of Spain. Everyone knows that he reconsidered several times this renunciation.

The discussion between Don Jaime and his younger brother Don Juan, the father of King Juan Carlos of Spain, on the validity of exclusion of the children born of an "unequal" wedding for the succession on the throne of Spain was sliced by the weddings of the three children of the King of Spain. Louis XX and his uncle thus keep all their rights to the throne of Spain.

Louis XX is very popular in Spain because the Spanish understood that one cannot, in a Sovereign House, grant everything to the juniors and at the same time refuse anything to the elders, quite simply because their father and grandfather became deaf-mute following a missed surgical operation.

Par la Grâce de Dieu, Louis-le-14ème.
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  #45  
Old 07-08-2006, 10:54 PM
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Benjamin and Warren, Louis has a closed point if vue, he is never going to recognized what we said, no matter´it is the truth.
For you Louis, he is Louis XX, for us and all the Royal Houses in Europe he is just Alfonso de Borbón Matinez-Bordiu.

Luis-Alfonso is a nice guy, his father was the person that made all this troubles, he never understands why he was not the heir to the spanish throne and when he saw that Juan.Carlos,was going to be the king, he overcome his bitterness by changing his claims towards France.
Luis, loves his father and I think that he is in the middle of all this for his father and a way of avoiding all this problems caused by the Duke of Cadiz, he prefers to stay away and live in Venezuela with the rich family of his wife.

I read the book of Emanuella and the poor lady is the bitterness itself, full of hate towards the Spanish Royal Family.
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  #46  
Old 07-09-2006, 12:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by claudia
I read the book of Emanuella and the poor lady is the bitterness itself, full of hate towards the Spanish Royal Family.
I have heard the exact same thing about the book, Claudia. Sad, really, that at her age she just can't just enjoy her family.
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  #47  
Old 07-09-2006, 02:04 AM
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The title of the forum says "who is the rightful heir to the french throne", so i'll go ahead i give my opinion.
Personally i believe that since Louis XIV "The Sun King", the house of Bourbon has shown nothing but unfitness to rule a France that ceased to be the easy going absolutist France to grow into the Illustrated ever changing France of the 1780's.
The question is "who among the Orleans, Bourbons and Bonapartes is the rightful heir to the throne". Bourbons I believe will have the ghosts of the excess of the Revolution hunting them wherever they go; The classic waste and excess of Madame du Barry, la Marquise de Pompadour, Marie antoniette combined with Louis XV defeat during the crucial wars that preluded the loss of French supremacy in the seas and North America, his poorly handled political administration(after the death of Cardinal Fleury ), his poor moral values and the total disaster that meant the rule of Louis XVI(although the help he give to the Americans during the Indepence wars that came at the cost of paving the way to the revolution) give a painful result that still causes revolt for the Absolute system.
Orleans, well, they had a chance to give the monarchy a new oportunity in France the only problem was that they never new wich side to pick. Besides the Orleanists dont really have anything to support their claims(i mean historically, what have they done , what extraordinary achievement have they reach for France).
Bonapartes in the other side i think they mean a transition to a new era. I wrote before that Bourbons were never able to handle Post revolutionary France. if you look at the begginings of the revolution in France most people believed that monarchy was over for good(the excess, the terror were aimed at achieving that), most royalist were nothing more than emigres. And suddenly a soldier, a petit corporal, a man who shared the pain of his troops, someone who fought with them was there.
Napoleon Bonaparte had arrived to the scene, we all now what happened later, why do i say bonapartists have the strongest claim?, well, if it wasn t for Napoleon, monarchy would have stayed away from France for a long time.
Napoleon took the old system and adjusted it so it could fit the new revolutionary France, it gave Justice a chance, Introduced a Code we all know and gave France the chance to regain the prestige that Louis XIV had gave her hundreds of years ago. Since then if Bourbon mean pre -revolutionary humilliation and excess, Bonaparte means greatness, brilliancy and Bravery. A warrior dinasty founded by a warrior and one of the greatest of all times
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  #48  
Old 07-09-2006, 05:04 PM
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Well, Henri of France is the Head of the French Royal House while The Prince Napoleon is The Head of the French Imperial House.
Two diff things.
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  #49  
Old 07-09-2006, 06:09 PM
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Henri V, Comte de Paris, Duc de France is the Head of the House of Orleans and the rightful heir to the throne as the lineal descendant of Louis-Phillippe.
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  #50  
Old 07-09-2006, 08:11 PM
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The quarrels between French monarchists do not go back from today, they go up with the French revolution. Legitimists and Orleanists will never be able to be reconciled for very major reasons. And if the Count of Chambord did not want the monarchist restoration which Orleanists proposed to him, it's because of these very major reasons.

When in 1793, Philippe Egalité voted for the death of King Louis XVI, the Duke of Cadiz had not been born yet. So I don't think it's honest to bring all back to the Duke of Cadiz.

Actually in France, and I'm well placed to confirm it, a large majority of monarchists are Legitimists. According to the fundamental laws of the kingdom of France that nobody can dispute, HRH Louis XX, Duke of Anjou and Head of the House of Bourbon, is the heir of kings of France.

The Bourbon-Orleans are a junior line of the House of Bourbon, and they will always remain it. They cannot claim to the throne of France and their ancester Louis-Philippe I, King of French (but not King of France) only from August 9,1830 to February 2,1848, was an usurper. That's why the Orleanists proposed to the Count of Chambord a project of monarchist restoration, which he rejects in 1873.

I advise you to go from time to time on French Legitimists sites to get informed about HRH Louis XX activities.

Par la Grâce de Dieu, Louis-le-14ème.
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  #51  
Old 07-10-2006, 01:06 AM
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Dear Russian,

Bonaparte is no movement, is no party, bonaparte is an ideal, an ideal of greatness. You might say "what their dictatorship kept", i would tell you that there was no dictatorship, Napoleon erected himself as a warrior, a soldier, someone who didnt had a past, someone who didn t came from the corrupted court of excess such as the Bourbons.

You call him an usurper, well my personal feeling is that by the first time since the early days of the Holy Roman Empire the people had a chance to choose a monarch, or, do you really believe Bourbons would have been the first option for new monarchs for the average frenchmen of 1796.

Thank you for your reply, before i finish, do you want to know what makes Napoleon so different from the Bourbons or Orleans?, He meant the Ascent of the Ordinary men, the posibility that if you had the skills regardless of your past you were going to be at the Top someday.

Have a nice day.
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  #52  
Old 07-13-2006, 04:50 AM
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Here's part of an article from http://www.heraldica.org/topics/bourbon.htm
about the legal fight between the Count of Paris and the older line of the Spanish Bourbons about the title "duc d'Anjou":

In 1988 a suit was brought by Henri d'Orléans against Alfonso of Borbón, for usurping the title of duke of Anjou and the arms of France.
A Paris court stated the following on Dec. 21, 1988 (loosely paraphrased from the French): nobiliary titles abolished by the Revolutions of 1789 and 1848, and restored by decre of Jan. 28, 1852 [and never officially abolished since] can only be lawfully used and given to their bearers in official acts pursuant to a decree by the Minister of Justice, in application of the royal or imperial act which originally confered the titles [anyone who has a legitimate claim to a title can ask the Minister of Justice to confirm this claim: the bearer can then officially use the title in legal documents such as birth certificates etc; about 400 such confirmations were made since 1872]. A nobiliary title can only be defended from usurpation by the person who is entitled to it under these conditions, or who belongs to a family to which this distinction has been recognized in said manner. The title of duke of Anjou was last granted by Louis XV to his grandson Louis-Stanislas-Xavier [later Louis XVIII] in 1785, was abolished by the effects of the decree of June 19, 1790 [abolishing all nobiliary titles]. The present existence of the title could only be verified by the Minister of Justice if asked. Under those conditions Henri d'Orléans has no legal standing to defend the title of duke of Anjou over which he establishes no claim for himself or his family; likewise for Sisto-Enrique of Borbón-Parma [who was suing with Henri d'Orléans]. As for the coat of arms, "it does not behoove a court of the Republic to adjudicate the dynastic rivalry which underlies this heraldic quarrel, as well as the whole suit itself."
The Paris Court of Appeals confirmed the judgment on November 22, 1989, essentially saying that since 1830 there is no throne of France, and therefore the arms of France: Azure three fleur-de-lys or, are the arms of a family and not arms of dominion. (End of quote).

It's interesting for me to read that while it is possible to get a legal accetance for inherited titles of nobility, the head of a branch of the Bourbons can't just create new titles from the pool of former titles used by the members of his family. I think this makes sense. To create new titles you need a letter patent that can only be issued by a king/queen - as France doesn't have one, there can't be new titles but OTOH the republic does not forget about their past.

Does anyone know if the Princes Napoleon or Bonaparte asked for the official recognition of their titles? I'm sure a lot of the families ennobled by Napoleon did (the Fouchè come to mind.)

Thanks to Magnik who posted the link here: French Royalty Links
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  #53  
Old 07-16-2006, 10:10 PM
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From what I remember reading in articles posted on the Guy Stair Sainty's website after Napoleon III was removed after the FrancoPrussian War there was a strong movement to restore the Bourbons. And it was ruined by pride over common sense. The Bourbon heir refused to accept unless the tri-color flag was removed as the official flag. That ruined his chances and the chances of the descendants.

The Bonapartes, on the other hand, embraced the feeling of the French Revolution and made it a manifestation of universal freedom, they kept the flag and they kept the hymn. Those who adapt to times are the ones more willing to survive. And the two family names seem to bring two different aspects of royal power past (the Bourbons) present ( the Bonapartes in the 19th century).

This is a great article from one of my favorite experts, Guy Stair Sainty:
The French Legistimist Case

The Last Testament of Loius XVI
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  #54  
Old 07-18-2006, 12:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Toledo
This is a great article from one of my favorite experts, Guy Stair Sainty:
The French Legistimist Case

The Last Testament of Loius XVI
After having read the first article, so many details fit with what I already knew so it's quite convincing. Especially as the idea of a "nationality" is so much younger than the concept of nobility and royal succession.

I have nothing against the claim of the Orleans but as there are still direct descendants of Louis XIV. around via the male line (via Spain), these should have the precedence as the older branch of the House. It's tough for the Orleans but really: they seem to argue with "modern", post-revolution arguments when it comes to a legitimist question.

As for Juan Carlos not recognizing the older line of his family: the Spanish constitution makes clear IMHO that the onthronisation of Juan Carlos was a break with the old traditions and that the current monarchy starts with him - thus he needs not recognize his cousin if he does not want. As for the titles: for me, the name de Bourbon is enough. It's one of the most noble names, it represents a certain history, background and tradition.

Let's face it, we live in modern times - France, as are Parme, Naples, Sicily as part of Italy, is a republic and in Spain a different branch of the Bourbon inhabit the throne. There is no need for Senor de Borbon to claim anything or ask for a title that is not backed up by an actual monarchy.
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  #55  
Old 07-20-2006, 06:57 PM
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Excuse me but I have one question.
I have read the document, which describes the rules of the french inheritance.
Let's present that Luis Alifonso will have only daughter or will remain without posterity. Who will be a legal successor of the french kings in this case? Bourbon-Parma family or duc de Calabria (he is Bourbon Two Sicilies)?
Here right of the womans absolutely expelled?
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  #56  
Old 07-20-2006, 11:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jo of Palatine
...Let's face it, we live in modern times - France, as are Parme, Naples, Sicily as part of Italy, is a republic and in Spain a different branch of the Bourbon inhabit the throne. There is no need for Senor de Borbon to claim anything or ask for a title that is not backed up by an actual monarchy.
Interesting point of view. I like it.
Even when Luis Alfonso is the senior male of the senior family branch and King Juan Carlos' clan is one branch down, Juan Carlos is the only Bourbon who sports a crown on his head these days.
Thus, at least for me, he is the boss of all clans, all other ones can dream all the want, but only Juan Carlos is the one called His Majesty these days.
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  #57  
Old 07-21-2006, 04:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Russian
Let's present that Luis Alifonso will have only daughter or will remain without posterity. Who will be a legal successor of the french kings in this case? Bourbon-Parma family or duc de Calabria (he is Bourbon Two Sicilies)?
Here right of the womans absolutely expelled?
The next most senior male Bourbon after Luis Alfonso is none other than King Juan Carlos; the Prince of the Asturias is next, and after him the line goes back to the male issue of King Fernando VII, which brings us to Don Alfonso de Orléans-Bourbon y Ferrara-Pignatelli, 7th Duke of Galliera (b 1968), who is a descendant of Queen Victoria through his great-grandmother Princess Beatrice of Edinburgh, Princess of Great Britain and Princess of Saxe-Coburg and Gotha.
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  #58  
Old 07-21-2006, 04:47 AM
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But whom is the native brother of Beatrice de Bourbon Two Sicilies, duc de Calabria?
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  #59  
Old 07-21-2006, 05:40 AM
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Originally Posted by Russian
But whom is the native brother of Beatrice de Bourbon Two Sicilies, duc de Calabria?
The brother of Princess Beatrice is indeed Charles (Carlo), Duke of Calabria, son of one of the two pretenders/claimants to the Headship of the Royal House of Bourbon-Two Sicilies.

The Two Sicilies family has its own thread, here. Discussion of the Two Sicilies is not particularly relevant to the subject of "rightful heir to the French Throne", apart from the dynastic quirk of a Bourbon Princess marrying a Bonaparte Prince, and that is discussed in the Bonaparte thread.
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Old 07-21-2006, 06:43 AM
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And unless Two Sicilies not Bourbon? Unless this family does not occur from the French king Louis XIV and its grandson of the Spanish king Philippe V? Unless Duke of Calabria cannot be the successor of the French throne after Luis Alphonso and the Spanish king Juan Carlos?
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