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  #421  
Old 01-18-2016, 02:01 PM
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Originally Posted by Duc_et_Pair View Post
For an example Isabelle d'Orléans, the mother of the present Orléanist claimant, posed with Duchesses of France at the Trianon. I will look for the picture.
In the good old days of Point de Vue with the Duchesses of La Rochefoucauld, Harcourt, Gramont, Maillé, Noailles, Praslin and La Force.A great idea of whoever initiated this photograph!

Archives : la comtesse de Paris et les duchesses - Noblesse & Royautés
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  #422  
Old 01-18-2016, 02:25 PM
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This is the picture I meant:

From the left to the right:

In beige with the fan:
Yolaine Françoise de La Rochefoucauld, Duchesse de La Rochefoucauld

In pink:
Isabelle d'Harcourt, Duchesse d'Harcourt

In brown:
Cathérine de Gramont, Duchesse de Gramont

Seated on the floor:
Martine de Maillé de la Tour-Landry, Duchesse de Maillé

Central:
Isabelle d'Orléans, Princesse de France

In red:
Charlotte de Noailles, Duchesse de Noailles

In flowery dress:
Clotilde de Choiseul-Praslin, Duchesse de Praslin

In blue:
Aline de Caumont de La Force, Duchesse de La Force

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  #423  
Old 01-18-2016, 02:33 PM
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Originally Posted by Marengo View Post
In the good old days of Point de Vue with the Duchesses of La Rochefoucauld, Harcourt, Gramont, Maillé, Noailles, Praslin and La Force.A great idea of whoever initiated this photograph!

Archives : la comtesse de Paris et les duchesses - Noblesse & Royautés
Oh you were before me.... while I was typing the next post.

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  #424  
Old 07-13-2016, 05:18 AM
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There is a very interesting book dedicated to the Legitimist Pretenders : " Les princes caches ou histoire des pretendants legitimistes (1883-1989)" by Jacques Bernot. What's your opinion about this book?
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  #425  
Old 08-01-2016, 11:03 PM
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If the Comte de Paris was to legally be declared as the King of France, would he be King Henry V or King Henry VII?
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  #426  
Old 08-02-2016, 12:54 AM
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If the Comte de Paris was to legally be declared as the King of France, would he be King Henry V or King Henry VII?
Henry VII. Henry V belongs to the grandson of Charles X who was king for 7 days until Louis Philippe was crowned, His father's claim would be recognized as Henry VI. If Jean succeeded him he would be Jean IV (his great-grandfather being pretender Jean III). Francois would be the III. Its like Louis XVIII, he wasn't XVII as his brother Louis XVI's son was considered to have been king even if a republic.
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  #427  
Old 08-02-2016, 11:08 PM
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Countessmeout, This is very informative. Thus a Claimant to the Throne can be given a regnal number and still be counted as an uncrowned sovereign.
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  #428  
Old 08-03-2016, 01:18 AM
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Countessmeout, This is very informative. Thus a Claimant to the Throne can be given a regnal number and still be counted as an uncrowned sovereign.

A claimant is counted if the successors who actually rule want to acknowledge him/her as having counted.

So, Louis-Charles, Dauphin of Francs, never ruled France a day of his life. His father, Louis XVI, was executed during the Revolution when Louis-Charles was 7 or 8, and Louis-Charles died 2 years later. He was never declared king, nor crowned, and he spent the entirety of those 2 years imprisoned. Yet, when his uncle came to the throne he was numbered Louis XVIII, retroactively acknowledging the reign of Louis-Charles (as Louis XVII).

Similar happened with the Napoleons; Napoleon II (son of Napoleon I) gains his numbering because his cousin chose to style himself as Napoleon III, despite Napoleon II never having actually reigned.

In England, the reign of Edward V isn't disputed despite his having never been crowned or ruled really (having spent most of his short reign imprisoned by the future Richard III), likely because he's acknowledged as having been a legitimate monarch by the numbering of Edward VI. Matilda of England and Margaret of Scotland both had longer reigns than him, yet have disputed statues as having been Queens - I would argue in part because there wasn't ever a Matilda II or Margaret II that followed them.
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  #429  
Old 08-09-2016, 01:36 PM
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Pretender to France's non-existent throne embroiled in succession row*
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  #430  
Old 08-09-2016, 07:25 PM
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Can't wait to get my Point de vue and it is out TODAY !
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  #431  
Old 08-09-2016, 10:57 PM
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Count Henri is very firm about French monarchial tradition. It is sad when family members squabble over inheritance.
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  #432  
Old 08-10-2016, 06:05 PM
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Will we see in the future two Orleanist Pretenders?
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  #433  
Old 08-10-2016, 06:55 PM
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Will we see in the future two Orleanist Pretenders?
No.

The Duke of Vendome is the legal guardian of the Count of Clermont.

After the death of the Count of Paris, obviously whatever Prince Jean desires is what will take place.
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  #434  
Old 08-10-2016, 07:23 PM
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Will we see in the future two Orleanist Pretenders?
Yes. In May Prince Henri announced that his son Prince Francois, by right of male primogeniture, is his Heir. Because of his disability, the Prince's brother Prince Jean would act as a Regent, assisted by a regency council.

Two months later Prince Jean waves with a document from his grandfather, whom not only tried to rule beyond his grave but also interferes in the principle that the Heir is by order of male primogeniture in a legitime and approved marriage. So Prince Jean does not wish to be a Regent for his brother: he wants to bypass his brother and become the head himself.

So yes: there will be two different heads, when this silly feud continues, but de facto Prince Jean will always be the boss, in both scenarios.

I am following Henri here. He acknowledges that his eldest son is not able to act as the head of the House. Therefore a regency will be installed: his son, the firstborn prince of the blood royal, is respected but at the same time there is an eye for reality. Probably Prince Francois himself will have no clue, but it is a chique solution.
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  #435  
Old 08-10-2016, 09:26 PM
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It is almost useless as a debate but it's another proof that Prince Henri and Prince Jean are not very close.
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  #436  
Old 08-10-2016, 10:45 PM
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Will we see in the future two Orleanist Pretenders?

Yes, but also no.

Some Orleanists will likely support François as the pretender, but given his disabilities it's unlikely he'll be presenting himself as such. François is unmarried and has no children, so when he passes his claim will go to Jean or his heirs (Jean has 4 children, 2 of them sons who could "inherit").
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  #437  
Old 08-10-2016, 11:14 PM
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The Duke of Orleans is without any doubt very respected in the orleanist circles.
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  #438  
Old 08-11-2016, 04:49 AM
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The Duke of Orleans is without any doubt very respected in the orleanist circles.
You mean Prince Jacques, who is married with Gersende, daughter of the Duc de Sabran-Pontevès?

I have no doubt he is a respected gentleman under orléanists but what do you mean? Has Prince Jacques made remarkable achievements or so?
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  #439  
Old 08-11-2016, 06:51 AM
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The Duke of Orleans is without any doubt very respected in the orleanist circles.
Ofcourse he his.But other then that the Orléons branch has always consisted of troublemakers,treators and backward scemes throughout history while the Bourbons were on the Throne..and then the claims to and fights over a non-existent Throne,in their case.... is beyond the rediculous and sooo out of touch of time and circumstances indeed.It is history repeated to a fault...

Other than that,it is a rainy day with dry spells..
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  #440  
Old 08-11-2016, 07:00 AM
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Yes, but also no.

Some Orleanists will likely support François as the pretender, but given his disabilities it's unlikely he'll be presenting himself as such. François is unmarried and has no children, so when he passes his claim will go to Jean or his heirs (Jean has 4 children, 2 of them sons who could "inherit").
I agree that most likely Prince François won't personally are any claim, but I wonder if instead the other two appointed members of the "regency council" will support his claim on his behalf against Prince Jean. This would indeed start another feud.
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