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  #21  
Old 10-24-2004, 12:04 PM
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See "Royal Family of France" : all Orleans and Bonaparte are there. To find the duke of Bourbon and Anjou, look at "Louis Alphonse of Bourbon". :-)
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  #22  
Old 10-24-2004, 12:56 PM
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I haven't read through all of this thread ... but on a whimsical note, I hope some-one has made reference to
'De Gaulle' being the "True Successor to the French Throne"
after his comment in the 1970's of "Vivre Le Quebec Libre" !
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  #23  
Old 10-28-2004, 01:06 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marengo
Henry became the head of the Bourbon family of France but his marriage to Theresa of Austria-Este (Modena) remained childless. So after his death in 1883 the french branch of the Bourbon family had died out & only italian and spanish branches excisted. The successionrights went to the descendants of the brother of Louis XIV, the Orleans family.
First my political opinion :

Orleans were a cadet line and still are. The problem is that they were the only line beeing France resident, and royalists were very nationalists. The other problem was thas the elder line of the Bourbon family was the Carlist line, quite unfashionable. So the larger part of french royalists became "Orleanists", an very few made allegeance to the Spanish Bourbon.
In the middle of the XXst century, the carlist line became extinct and king Alfonso XIII of Spain, in exile, became the head of the Bourbon family. His elder son remained childless, the second, don Jaime, was deaf. So the third Don Juan became heir to the Spanish throne. He was the father of King Juan Carlos. Louis-Alphonse de Bourbon is the only surviving grandson of the said do Jaime. His father, Alphonse, died in a ski accident.

Orleans family was very popular in France up to the seventies. They were glamourous, had a large family, married european royalties. Then came divorces, scanals and disturbing political attitudes from the Count of Paris.

Alphonse of Bourbon raised and went quite often to France. He was glamourous and a conservatist catholic. So more and more french royalists "voted" for him.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Marengo
Leading geneologists, most of the french aristocracy, magazines and other royal families all support the Orleans claim, even King Juan-Carlos of Spain!
I have a much higher opinion of the duke de Vendome then of Luis-Alfonso de Borbon y Martinez. As I said, the entire issue is caused by the dislike of some people of the Orleans family & that is why they searched & searched untill they found someone vein enough to support them in their childish battle.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Marengo
Leading geneologists (...) support the Orleans claim
: can you give me ONE name :-)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marengo
most of the french aristocracy (...) support the Orleans claim
: I found one in Provence, that's all. There are few aristocrats in the association supporting Orleans claim (IMRF). There are two dukes - Bauffremont and Clermont-Tonnerre - at the head of the association supporting Louis Alphonse de Bourbon
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marengo
(...) all support the Orleans claim, even King Juan-Carlos of Spain!
Of course Louis Alphonse beeing quite popular in spanish aristocracy too, Juan Carlos don't want him to shadow his children

Quote:
Originally Posted by Marengo
I have a much higher opinion of the duke de Vendome then of Luis-Alfonso de Borbon y Martinez.
It's because you support him.


That was my political opinion. An now again my legal one again:



According to the french law of succession (i.e. 'La loi Fondamentale du Royaume") no one can choose the next king of France, even the actual one. The king must be the elder male of the Bourbon family, resulting of a legitime marriage.

According to the treaty of Utrecht, the king of Spain cannot be also king of France.

Louis Alphonse de Bourbon is the elder male of the Bourbon family, resulting of a legitime marriage. He is not king of Spain. He is the only one who can be the true king of France. See Louis-Alphonse Of Bourbon Forum.
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  #24  
Old 10-28-2004, 08:33 AM
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[QUOTE=tiaraprin]Upon reading The Royal Families of Europe by Geoffrey Hindley, he puts forth the arguments for who is the true heir of the French Crown. He discusses the Orleans branch, the Spanish Borbons, the Napoleons, and a couple of others--including HM Queen Elizabeth II!!

Queen Elizabeth isn't even the rightful monarch of Britain never mind of France.
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  #25  
Old 08-26-2005, 10:59 AM
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Heirs to spare

Quote:
Originally Posted by Idriel
:Who is the proper heir? I'm so lost!!
If you support the Orléanists, then it's HRH Henri VII, Comte de Paris, formerly Comte de Clermont, Duke of France, Head of the Royal House of France;

If you think the Orléans are a usurping and regicidal branch of the Bourbon dynasty, loyalty would lie with Louis Alfonso, Duke of Touraine, Duke of Bourbon, Duke of Anjou, "Primogeniture Representative of the House of France."

If you are a Bonapartist you would support HIH Charles, Prince Napoleon, Head of the Imperial House of France;

BUT if you accept the intention to bypass Charles as stated in the will of his father, the late HIH Louis, Prince Napoleon, Head of the Imperial House, then the rightful Head of the Bonapartes is Charles's son, HIH Prince Jean-Chrisophe.

Plenty to choose from here! Most accept the Comte de Paris as the rightful heir to the Throne of France because he is the direct descendant of the last reigning King, Louis Philippe I.

Prince Charles Bonaparte is a descendant of Jerome Bonaparte, Napoleon's youngest brother, who reigned as King of Westphalia 1807-1813. Napoleon I's only son died in 1832 unmarried, and Napoleon III's only son was the Prince Imperial who died tragically in Zululand in 1879.
.
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  #26  
Old 08-26-2005, 11:07 AM
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Thanks Warren. I'm even more confused now! LOL!
Hum? Vive la Republique? LOL!
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  #27  
Old 07-03-2006, 08:37 AM
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There are 2 current French pretenders (not counting Charles Bonaparte, who is the pretender to the Imperial Throne of France).
One of them is Comte de Paris, the other is the so-called Spanish line.
After the death of the childless legitimist pretender "Henry V", Comte de Chambord (grandson of King Charles X of France), most accepted his selection of the heir, the Orleanist Pretender, Comte de Paris (grandson of King Louis-Phillipe, who descends from the second son of King Louis XIII). Few, however argue that the rightful descendant is the descendant of Louis XIV (Spanish line).
The point of the argument is that Prince Philip (King Philip V of Spain) renounced any claims (including future) to the French throne, upon becoming the King of Spain. Therefore the Dukes of Orleans were recognized as the rightul heirs (after the direct line) before the French Revolution. The opposite group says that this renunciation was invalid and impossible (some also point that Philippe Egalite and Louis-Philippe forfeited any rights to the throne for disloyalty during the FR).
Personally I recognize Comte de Paris as the rightful heir.
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  #28  
Old 07-03-2006, 06:46 PM
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I would like that France have won Validity, Legality, Honour and Decency. I think, it is possible only with restoration of monarchic authority. For me the monarchic authority is the legitimist kingdom. I am the supporter of Legality and validity, therefore I am legitimist. If French legitimists consider that lawful king of France is the Spanish prince Luis Alfonco de Bourbon, I need to agree with these French monarchists.

I know sad history of Egalite and his son Louis-Philippe. Still so it is known, that Louis-Philippe perfectly knew, that last king of France Charles has renounced in favour of the grandson because Louis-Philippe had the letter from Charles in whom this duke was appointed regent owing to small age of the grandson of king Charles. However Louis-Philippe has preferred to become king, instead of to execute will of King of France Charles. Do not forget, Louis-Philippe named King of crowd. Therefore for me their descendants cannot become successors of the French throne.
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  #29  
Old 07-03-2006, 07:09 PM
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On the hypothetical question Who is the right heir to the French throne?

There is the rightful person, which I guess is the direct male descendant of the senior branch. That is young Luis Alfonso, son of the late Duke of Cadiz and grandson of the older brother of King Juan Carlos' father, the Count of Barcelona.

But, rightful person aside, I'll rather go for the most appropiate candidate: The Bonaparte Heir. Why?
First he is an Imperial Prince, so far in my book that's a little more rank than Royal
Second, he married a House Bourbon-Two Sicilies Royal Princess and that makes their son a descendant from the Capets, like all the Bourbon, Borbon, Borbone and Orleans and Orleans-Braganza branches. So the one that combines both historical periods, past and present is my winner.

Not that it matters because as Grecka so vividly put it...
Quote:
Originally Posted by grecka
It will be a cold day in hell before there's another King of France...
:p
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  #30  
Old 07-05-2006, 04:54 PM
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It's really simple. If you love the Revolution, mass murder and oppression of the Church, you support the House of Orleans.

If you love France, you support the House of France in the person of le duc d'Anjou!
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  #31  
Old 07-05-2006, 05:10 PM
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That is not the point and what do you said had nothing to do with the rights.
Felipe V was duc d´Anjou as a french prince, when he renounced to his rights to the French Crown, his title of french prince went back to the french royal family, how can he renounce and still keeping his title?
Luis-Alfonso in Spain is a commoner, how can he be a french prince if he is not a spanish prince.
The Count of Chambord when he died said that the heir to the french royal house was the Count of Paris and not because he just wanted to do it, it was because ending the senior branch of the family the Orléans becomes the French Royal Family.

The Carlistas came from the spanish brand so they cannot claim rights in the french throne.
He can be the chief of the house of Bourbon, but no the chief of the house of France.
he can be a good kid and the Orléans can had scandals on their family (Luis family also had them) but that has nothing to be with rights by birth.

By the way all royal families in Europe recognize Henri Count of Paris as the chief and specialy King Juan-Carlos.
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  #32  
Old 07-05-2006, 05:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jovan66102
It's really simple. If you love the Revolution, mass murder and oppression of the Church, you support the House of Orleans.

If you love France, you support the House of France in the person of le duc d'Anjou!
It's not that simple... And please, don't get into political consideration.
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  #33  
Old 07-05-2006, 05:24 PM
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Luis Alfonso is a prince in Spain and is entitled to use the H.R.H.
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  #34  
Old 07-05-2006, 06:46 PM
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No, he is not.

He was born a royal highness but not for his rights as a spanish prince.
Francisco Franco, the grandfather of his mother Carmen Martinez-Bordiu Franco, was the chief of state in Spain at that time and HE, gives the title of duke of Cadiz a perpetuity, that means that the sons will inherit the title after their father´s death) to the man that was going to marry his grandaugther, and FRANCO, made them ( Alfonso de Borbón-Dampierre, Luis-Alfonso and Francisco ) Royal highness, it was not the Count of Barcelona nor Juan-Carlos I.

When Franco died, one of the first things that Juan-Carlos did as king of Spain was to abolish the perpetuity of the title that is why Luis-Alfonso is not Duke of Cadiz.
He has no title at all probably in the future he is going to be " Señor de Meiras", title that he will inherit for the side of his mother.

The title of Duke of Anjou returned to the French royals and now the Duke is CHarles-Phillipe Prince of Orléans and Duke of Anjou.

His father before his relation with the Franco´s was never called Prince Alfonso of France, he was Alfonso de Borbón -Dampierre, while in France and in all the world the Princes of France were the daughters and sons of the late Count of Paris.
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  #35  
Old 07-06-2006, 04:45 AM
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I can assure you the Spanish Royal Family recongize to him the prince status and the HRH, even if he's not duke of Cadiz (but he is duke of Anjou).
And trust me, I'm neither legitimist neither orleanist but republican.
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  #36  
Old 07-06-2006, 09:00 AM
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Please don´t think that I am being rude but the spanish royal family did not recognized him as a spanish prince and neither as a french prince, remember that the grandmother of King Juan-Carlos was Princess Louise of France, daughter of the other Count of Paris, the one that the Count of Chambord name as his sucessor.

I know that one of the things that bothers them are Luis-Alfonso´s pretentions.
THe late Countess of Paris, Princess Isabelle d´Orléans-Braganza, was king Juan-Carlos dear "Tante Babelle", and she was the best friend of her mother the Countess of Barcelona.
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  #37  
Old 07-06-2006, 11:47 AM
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Luis Alfonso was created HRH, without dynastic rights, at his birth by Gen. Franco. Luis Alfonso retained this rank until the Royal Decree of 1987, when he lost the HRH and the right of succession to the title of Duque de Cádiz (which become ad personam to his father).
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  #38  
Old 07-06-2006, 03:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Danielane
I can assure you the Spanish Royal Family recongize to him the prince status and the HRH, even if he's not duke of Cadiz (but he is duke of Anjou).

And trust me, I'm neither legitimist neither orleanist but republican.

I'm not at all a Republican but I agree with you, only on this point of view.

Of course, Louis XX, the elder of all the descendants of King Alphonso XIII of Spain, is a Prince and the Spanish Royal Family recognize him the Prince status and the HRH.
Of course, Louis XX is Duc d'Anjou.

Par la Grâce de Dieu, Louis-le-14ème.
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  #39  
Old 07-06-2006, 03:46 PM
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No matter what the Bourbon-Orléans say, no matter what they do, they are and will always remain a junior line of the Holy House of Bourbon.

Louis XX, the elder of all the Capetians and the Head of the Holy House of Bourbon, is in fact the Head of the House of France. For a large majority of the French monarchists, he is the unique pretender of the throne of France.

Par la Grâce de Dieu, Louis-le-14ème.
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  #40  
Old 07-06-2006, 06:00 PM
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Louis14, we have dif points of views, we are never going to be d´accord.
For the Spanish Royal House, for the King of Spain and for me Luis-Alfonso y simply and plain Luis-Alfonso de Borbón Matínez-Bordiú.

S.A.R Henri De France, Comte de Paris et Duke of France is is the unique pretender of the throne of France.
Par la Grâce de Dieu.

From here I sent you my regards and best wishes because in this theme we can be writing until our deaths and we are never ever going to have the same opinion so let´s be friends.
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