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  #361  
Old 05-14-2015, 10:53 AM
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Given the REPEATED instances of treason by the House of Orleans, MANY French monarchists consider them to have forfeited their claims to the throne.

In addition many see the forfeiture of dynastic claims to the French crown, made by the new King of Spain at the Treaty of Utrecht to have no legal legitimacy at all, and so consider 'Louis XX' to be their rightful King....
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  #362  
Old 05-14-2015, 11:47 AM
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Originally Posted by Duc_et_Pair View Post
There are two claimants for the restoration of the Bourbon monarchy.

The Bonapartes make no claim for a restoration of the Empire and keep themselves low profile. tTe whole claim of the Bonaparte family to rule France is far from traditional, of course.

From the two claimants to the restoration of the Bourbon monarchy, only Henri d'Orléans has a claim to be taken au sérieux. Not only is he a direct descendant in the male lineage of the last King of France, he is also the most senior male Bourbon with respect to the separation of the House de Bourbon into a French and a Spanish branch (Treaty of Utrecht).

The direct male line from the last King of France to Gaston d'Orléans (2009):

Louis-Philippe I d'Orléans, Roi des Français (1773-1850)
x Princesse Marie-Amélie Thérèse de Bourbon-Deux Siciles (1782-1866)
= Prince Ferdinand Philippe Louis Charles Éric Rosalino d'Orléans

Prince Ferdinand Philippe Louis Charles Éric Rosalino d'Orléans (1810-1842)
x Hélène Louise Elisabeth, Duchesse de Mecklenburg-Schwerin (1814-1858)
= Prince Robert Philippe Louis Eugène Ferdinand d'Orléans

Prince Robert Philippe Louis Eugène Ferdinand d'Orléans (1840-1910)
x Princesse Françoise Marie Amélie d’Orléans (1844-1925)
= Prince Jean Pierre Clément Marie d'Orléans

Prince Jean Pierre Clément Marie d'Orléans (1874-1940)
x Princesse Isabelle Marie Laure d’Orléans (1878-1961)
= Prince Henri Robert Ferdinand Marie Louis Philippe d'Orléans

Prince Henri Robert Ferdinand Marie Louis Philippe d'Orléans (1908-1999)
x Princesse Isabelle Marie Amélie Louise Victoire Thérèse Jeanne d'Orléans-Bragance (1911-1999)
= Prince Henri Philippe Pierre Marie d'Orléans

Prince Henri Philippe Pierre Marie d'Orléans (1933)
x Marie Thérèse Nadejda Albertine Rosa Philippine Margarethe Christine Hélène Josepha Martina Leopoldine, Duchesse de Württemberg (1934)
= Prince Jean Charles Pierre Marie d'Orléans

Prince Jean Charles Pierre Marie d'Orléans (1965)
x Doña María Magdalena Philomena Juliana Johanna de Tornos y Steinhart (1977)
= Prince Gaston Louis Antoine Marie d'Orléans
Thirst at all you doing great job with the genealogy. Second you say that the Prince Henri is the rightful heir to the French throne right? What about Duke of Anjou? What is the general opinion between French monarchist?
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  #363  
Old 05-14-2015, 01:52 PM
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Originally Posted by eya View Post
Thirst at all you doing great job with the genealogy. Second you say that the Prince Henri is the rightful heir to the French throne right? What about Duke of Anjou? What is the general opinion between French monarchist?
In essence the difference is:

Luis-Alfonso:
"I am the rightful King of France because I am the most senior of all Bourbons".

Henri:
"I am the rightful King of France because I am the direct heir of the last King".

When the Bourbons inherited the strongest claim to the Spanish throne, the claim was passed to a younger son who became Felipe V de Borbón, Rey de España. The strict separation of the French and Spanish thrones was formalized in the Treaty of Utrecht in 1714. This was the start of a formal split of the Bourbons into a French and a Spanish branch. Later the Spanish branch was furtherer split via similar international treaties to separate the Spanish throne from the Two Sicilies and from Parma.

Luis-Alfonso only has a claim when we accept his rejection of the formal and strict division of the thrones of France and Spain, which was vested in the Treaty of Utrecht and signed on behalf of (and with the great seals of the following attached): King Louis XIV of France, King Felipe V of Spain, Queen Anne of Great Britain, King João V of Portugal, King Vittorio Amadeo II of Savoy, the Lords States-General of the United Provinces (Netherlands).

So who has the strongest claim? Purely on base of seniority and ignoring the Treaty of Utrecht: Luis Alfonso de Borbón. On base of seniority and respecting the Treaty of Utrecht: Henri d'Orléans. In essence Luis-Alfonso says: "I wipe my *ss off with that paper, with those signs on behalf of my ancestors Louis XIV and Felipe V."

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  #364  
Old 05-14-2015, 02:05 PM
eya eya is offline
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Oh my god is the little complex Bourbons. French Bourbons, separation thrones. Anyway i think the rightful heir is the direct heir of the last king and you say is Prince Henri. OK i think understund something i hope.
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  #365  
Old 05-14-2015, 03:11 PM
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So only the victors of the war of the Spanish Succession signed the treaty of Utrecht, and not the losers [the Habsburgs]?

No wonder it is of doubtful legality. After the Treaty of Versailles [1919], was signed by all [western] participants, both winners and losers of WW1.
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  #366  
Old 05-15-2015, 03:31 AM
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Originally Posted by wyevale View Post
So only the victors of the war of the Spanish Succession signed the treaty of Utrecht, and not the losers [the Habsburgs]?

No wonder it is of doubtful legality. After the Treaty of Versailles [1919], was signed by all [western] participants, both winners and losers of WW1.
If the Treaty of Utrecht is declared null and void, then Gibraltar should return to Spain, the former French colonies in Canada should return to France, France should return the Principality of Orange to the Orange-Nassaus, the former Austrian territories in Italy (Milan, Naples, Sardinia, etc.) should return to Austria, etc. etc. etc. All these arrangements are part of that famous treaty.

Luis Alfonso (and his supporters) say that "the fundamental rights" of the French monarchy can not be changed. Not by the King, not by his successors. According to these rules, the succession to the throne is hereditary, passing by primogeniture with exclusion of females. The King must also be Catholic. Let us take a look to all monarchies today: almost all of them have changed the succession (treating males and females equal), almost all of them have no requirements for the Faith of the King, etc. Imagine that today France was a monarchy and the King was not able to adapt to modern times because of "the fundamental rights" which were once vested in mediaeval times... This is all nonsens. Of course a King Louis-Alphonse would have signed any change adapted by the French Parliament (or loose his throne).

No one denies Luis Alfonso his unique position as the most senior Bourbon of all, but that is it. He is not in line of a throne, not in France, not in Spain, not in Two-Sicilies, not in Parma. At best he is a Spanish nobleman with a dazzling ancestry and heir to the Dukedom of Franco.
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  #367  
Old 05-15-2015, 06:55 PM
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But also the Duke is Anjou is not the descendant of King Louis XIV? What you say he is only a Spanish nobleman? He has also the rightful to be heir to the throne.
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  #368  
Old 05-15-2015, 06:59 PM
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Originally Posted by eya View Post
But also the Duke is Anjou is not the descendant of King Louis XIV? What you say he is only a Spanish nobleman? He has also the rightful to be heir to the throne.
Not according to the Treaty of Utrecht, as Duc said.

There can be only one rightful heir to the French Throne, and he is Prince Henri, Count of Paris and Duke of France.
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  #369  
Old 05-16-2015, 04:32 AM
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And because said that Duc it is the right thing? I think and the Duke of Anjou have supporters in France.
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  #370  
Old 05-16-2015, 06:50 AM
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Originally Posted by eya View Post
But also the Duke is Anjou is not the descendant of King Louis XIV? What you say he is only a Spanish nobleman? He has also the rightful to be heir to the throne.
Luis Alfonso de Borbón is the most senior descendant of Louis XIV. There is no any misunderstanding and no dispute about that... He is the Ainé des Capétiens.

His ancestors Louis XIV (King of France) and Felipe V (King of Spain) signed the Treaty of Utrecht. The House of Bourbon would get Spain but in turn, they would agree with a strict separation of both thrones, for themselves and for for their descendants. In 1883 the line of Louis XIV became extinct in France. Therefore the claim went to the second most senior male lineage, which is the line of Louis XIII (the lineage of the present French claimant, Henri d'Orléans). However in Spain the line of Louis XIV still continues.

The most senior (legitimate) male lineage of Louis XIV in France

Louis XIV (1643-1715)
x Maria-Theresia, Archduchess of Austria (1638-1683)
= Louis, Dauphin of France (1661-1711)

Louis (1661-1711)
x Maria-Anna, Princess of Bavaria (1660-1690)
= Louis, Dauphin of France, Duke of Burgundy (1682-1712)

Louis (1682-1712)
x Maria Adelaide, Princess of Savoy (1685-1712)
= Louis XV, King of France (1710-1774)

Louis XV (1710-1774)
x Maria Leszczyńska (1703-1768)
= Louis Ferdinand, Dauphin of France (1729-1765)

Louis Ferdinand (1729-1765)
x Maria Josepha, Princess of Saxony (1731-1767)
= Charles X, King of France (1757-1836)

Charles X (1757-1836)
x Maria-Teresa, Princess of Savoy (1756-1805)
= Charles-Ferdinand, Duke of Berry (1778-1820)

Charles-Ferdinand (1778-1820)
x Marie-Caroline de Bourbon, Princess of Two Sicilies (1798-1870)
= Henri, Duke of Bordeaux, Count of Chambord (1820-1883)

Henri (1820-1883)
x Maria-Theresia, Archduchess of Austria (1817-1886)
= the extinction of the legitimate male lineage of Louis XIV in France (1883)

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The most senior (legitimate) male lineage of Louis XIV in Spain

Louis XIV (1643-1715)
x Maria-Theresia, Archduchess of Austria (1638-1683)
= Louis, Dauphin of France (1661-1711)

Louis (1661-1711)
x Maria-Anna, Princess of Bavaria (1660-1690)
= Philippe, Duke of Anjou (Felipe V, King of Spain) (1683-1746)

Felipe V (1683-1746) / renounced the throne of France for himself and all his descendants (1713)
x Elisabetta Farnese, Duchess of Parma (1692-1766)
= Carlos III, King of Spain (1716-1788)

Carlos III (1716-1788)
x Maria Amalia, Princess of Saxony (1724-1760)
= Carlos IV, King of Spain (1748-1819)

Carlos IV (1748-1819)
x María Luisa de Borbón, Princess of Parma (1751-1819)
= Francisco de Paula, Infante of Spain (1794-1865)

Francisco de Paula (1794-1865)
x Luisa Carlota de Borbón, Princess of Two Sicilies (1804-1844)
= Francisco de Asís de Borbón (1822-1902)

Francisco de Asís de Borbón (1822-1902)
x Isabel II, Queen of Spain (1830-1904)
= Alfonso XII, King of Spain (1857-1885)

Alfonso XII (1857-1885)
x María-Christina, Archduchess of Austria (1858-1929)
= Alfonso XIII, King of Spain (1886-1941)

Alfonso XIII (1886-1941)
x Victoria Eugenie, Princess of Battenberg (1887-1969)
= Jaime, Infante of Spain, Duke of Segovia (1908-1975)

Jaime (1908-1975) / renounced the throne of Spain for himself and all his descendants (1933 and again in 1969)
x Emmanuelle de Dampierre (1913-2012)
= Alfonso de Borbón, Duke of Cádiz (1936-1989)

Alfonso de Borbón (1936-1989)
x María del Carmen Martínez-Bordiú (1951)
= Luis Alfonso de Borbón (1974), Ainé des Capétiens, future heir to the title Duke of Franco

Luis Alfonso de Borbón (1974)
x María Margarita Vargas (1983)
= Eugenia de Borbón (2007), future heiress to the title Duchess of Franco
= Luis de Borbón (2010), future Ainé des Capétiens
= Alfonso de Borbón (2010)
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  #371  
Old 05-16-2015, 08:09 AM
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Therefore agrees to Treaty of Utrecht the Duke of Anjou should not have any claim for the french throne. Why concider himself then legitimist pretender? And what mean "Aine des Capetiens"?
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  #372  
Old 05-16-2015, 08:23 AM
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I think the word Capetiens refers to the family name, which I believe is the line of Hugh Capet from way way back. The dynasty of the Capetiens.

I don't speak French...not sure what Aine is...but I am guessing he means the 'source' of...he is THE Capetien.


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  #373  
Old 05-16-2015, 08:27 AM
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Therefore agrees to Treaty of Utrecht the Duke of Anjou should not have any claim for the french throne. Why concider himself then legitimist pretender? And what mean "Aine des Capetiens"?
Ainé des Capétiens means: the most senior male of the whole Capet dynasty. The Légitimists consider the separation of the thrones as vested in the Treaty of Utrecht, signed in name of Louis XIV and Felipe V, as illegal because it would break the so called "fundamental laws" of the French monarchy.

These fundamental laws more or less say that the succession is a Droit Divin (a divine right), which should pass by primogeniture, with the exclusion of females and with the strict demand that the King must be Catholic. How can a man, no matter King Louis XIV of France or King Felipe V of Spain, accept the renunciation of a "God-given right", so is their argument.

Then there is also a division inside the legitimist camp anyway: is being French a condition or not? The supporters of Don Luis Alfonso argue that princes of foreign nationality can still succeed to the French crown. Others say that French nationality of both the claimant and his ancestors is a requirement.
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  #374  
Old 05-16-2015, 08:52 AM
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The legitimist camp how strong is in the France? Don Louis Alfonso don't have the french nationality ? I'm sorry if to stun but is very interesting all this.

And thank you Pranter for the try. I don't speak french me to.
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  #375  
Old 05-16-2015, 09:07 AM
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Luis Alfonso has the French nationality as well, but not as son of a Frenchman. He got it via his paternal grandmother Emmanuelle de Dampierre (daughter of the French Roger de Dampierre, Vicomte de Dampierre and of the Italian Donna Vittoria dei principi Ruspoli).

I think the Orléanist movement is stronger than the Legitimist one. Especially also because the last one is connected with very conservative catholics, very right-wing or traditionalist French movements which believe in absolutism and want the return of Catholicism as state religion, etc, Needless to say that this is not how the average modern-day Frenchman thinks. By the way, Don Luis Alfonso de Borbón and Prince Jean d'Orléans go well together, They are polite and respect each other. They both know that they represent a grand history and show a well-mannered and respectful attitude.

See picture: http://www.sylmpedia.fr/images/2/2e/...l%C3%A9ans.jpg
Don Luis Alfonso de Borbón y Martínez Bordiú
Princess Philomena d'Orléans née De Tornos y Steinhart
Prince Jean d'Orléans (holding his son Prince Gaston)
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  #376  
Old 05-16-2015, 09:25 AM
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And something last and I live you alone I promise. The Bonaparte family is not interested at all for the monarchy? They have supporters?
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  #377  
Old 05-16-2015, 09:46 AM
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I don't believe there is a male line left from the Bonaparte's. I think that ended back in the 1920's.
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  #378  
Old 05-16-2015, 09:51 AM
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No, the Bonapartist movement is almost non-existent. Bonapartism is more connected with a political ideology which believes in a strong central state with a strong man holding almost unlimited executive powers, than with the restoration of the Empire under a Bonaparte.
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  #379  
Old 05-16-2015, 10:16 AM
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I don't believe there is a male line left from the Bonaparte's. I think that ended back in the 1920's.
There is.

Jerôme Bonaparte, youngest brother of Napoléon I (1784-1860)
x 1st Elisabeth "Betsy" Patterson (1785-1859)
= excluded from succession because of this unequal marriage

Jerôme Bonaparte, youngest brother of Napoléon I (1784-1860)
x 2nd Catharina, Princess of Württemberg (1783-1835)
= in 1852 Emperor Napoléon III re-instated his cousin and his descendants from this second -equal- marriage as successors

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Jerôme Bonaparte, youngest brother of Napoléon I (1784-1860)
x 2nd Catharina, Princess of Württemberg (1783-1835)
= Napoléon-Jerôme Bonaparte, Prince Napoléon (1822-1891)


Napoléon-Jerôme Bonaparte
x Maria Clotilde, Princess of Savoia (1843-1911)
= Victor Bonaparte, Prince Napoléon (1862-1926)

Victor Bonaparte
x Clémentine, Princess of Belgium (1972-1955)
= Louis Napoléon Bonaparte, Prince Napoléon (1914-1926)

Louis Napoléon Bonaparte
x Alix (des comtes) de Foresta (1926)
= Charles Bonaparte, Prince Napoléon (1950)

Charles Bonaparte
x Beatrice de Bourbon, Princess of Two Sicilies (1950)
= Jean-Christophe Bonaparte, Prince Napoléon (1986)

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  #380  
Old 05-16-2015, 10:21 AM
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Ah ok they were hiding from me! <G>

Thanks!

LaRae
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